Defense Injury Survival

[GASabresIUFAN]

Our excellent 4-1-0 start has come a quite a huge cost.  50% of our top 4 D entering the season are now out for what looks like extended periods.  Jokiharju is already on IR and Samuelsson, although early reports say he escaped catastrophic injury, could also be month to month with something like an ACL sprain. Hopefully he (and we) get even better news and he is only out a few weeks.

If he is out an extended period, is riding Pilut, Fitz, Bryson and Lyubushkin good enough? My gut reaction is it’s not.  I like Bryson and Lyubushkin as a 3rd pair ok, but elevating either of them into the top 4 is a recipe for trouble.  Putting AAAA Fitzgerald and the unknown Pilut in a position for major PT seems even worse.  

I think how KA handles this is going to his first real test of his GM skills in this new Era of Sabres hockey.  He clearly has an emerging offensive juggernaut that can roll 4 very effective lines that can play against anyone in all situations.  The continued growth of Cozens and Mitts as dangerous 2 way players is creating huge matchup problems for our opponents.  The Comrie/Anderson tandem is playing lights out.  So how KA supports this team in season in the face of these key defensive injuries could make the difference between making the playoffs or not.

I’m not advocating making any trades today.  Obviously KA needs to know the extent of both Joki and Mules’ injuries and it’s also reasonable to see if our 7/8 guys Fitz and Pilut can step up their games to take the pressure off KA to make a quick move.  That said, KA needs to get on the phone and see who might be available and at what price.  For example, the Van fire sale is about to begin.  They could easily make Schenn or Myers available. While neither is ideal, both are RHD and are capable of being effective players in the correct role, Schenn as a 3rd pair stay at home D, Myers as a veteran 2nd pair.  Myers has this year and next at 6 mill.  Schenn is at $850K for this season and has playoff experience with TB.
 

Edited October 23, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[matter2003]

I think they will be fine...that's why they got Pilut. Willing to bet he looks a lot better under Meatball's system than he did last time he was here.

Edited October 23, 2022 by matter2003

[JoeSchmoe]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Our excellent 4-1-0 start has come a quite a huge cost.  50% of our top 4 D entering the season are now out for what looks like extended periods.  Jokiharju is already on IR and Samuelsson, although early reports say he escaped catastrophic injury, could also be month to month with something like an ACL sprain. Hopefully he (and we) get even better news and he is only out a few weeks.

If he is out an extended period, is riding Pilut, Fitz, Bryson and Lyubushkin good enough? My gut reaction is it’s not.  I like Bryson and Lyubushkin as a 3rd pair ok, but elevating either of them into the top 4 is a recipe for trouble.  Putting AAAA Fitzgerald and the unknown Pilut in a position for major PT seems even worse.  

I think how KA handles this is going to his first real test of his GM skills in this new Era of Sabres hockey.  He clearly has an emerging offensive juggernaut that can roll 4 very effective lines that can play against anyone in all situations.  The continued growth of Cozens and Mitts as dangerous 2 way players is creating huge matchup problems for our opponents.  The Comrie/Anderson tandem is playing lights out.  So how KA supports this team in season in the face of these key defensive injuries could make the difference between making the playoffs or not.

I’m not advocating making any trades today.  Obviously KA needs to know the extent of both Joki and Mules’ injuries and it’s also reasonable to see if our 7/8 guys Fitz and Pilut can step up their games to take the pressure off KA to make a quick move.  That said, KA needs to get on the phone and see who might be available and at what price.  For example, the Van fire sale is about to begin.  They could easily make Schenn or Myers available. While neither is ideal, both are RHD and are capable of being effective players in the correct role, Schenn as a 3rd pair stay at home D, Myers as a veteran 2nd pair.  Myers has this year and next at 6 mill.  Schenn is at $850K for this season and has playoff experience with TB.
 

That's a lot of typing considering we don't even know what Muel's injury is yet. 

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

8 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I think they will be fine...that's why they got Pilut. Willing to bet he looks a lot better under Meatball's system than he did last time he was here.

I think they will be fine for a couple games if we only have to rely on Fitz/Bryson/Pilut.  Longer term I’d worry they’d struggle as we get a lot smaller on the backend with that line-up.

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

That's a lot of typing considering we don't even know what Muel's injury is yet. 

No, but his injury, long or short term, is making crystal clear how little depth we have at RHD.  I wrote in the off-season that KA should acquire two proven RHD as I had seen enough of Fitz to believe that he is at best an injury fill in.  KA signed Lyubushkin and kept Fitz as the 4th right side D.  I would have signed someone like Schenn instead and let Fitz anchor a pair in Rochester to protect UPL. 
 

[mjd1001]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

For example, the Van fire sale is about to begin.  They could easily make Schenn or Myers available. While neither is ideal, both are RHD and are capable of being effective players in the correct role, Schenn as a 3rd pair stay at home D, Myers as a veteran 2nd pair.  Myers has this year and next at 6 mill.  Schenn is at $850K for this season and has playoff experience with TB.
 

I was really, really surprised that the team president hinted at rebuilding Vancouver after the game last night.  That situation can easily be turned around.

They have been leading, or 'in' every game late.  Yes they haven't gotten 'bounces' and that matters, but with one 'bounce' going the right way for them they would likely have a winning record.  They looked bad at times against the Sabres last night, but they were in the game, and played without their best D-man, who should be back shortly.  They are 4 points, a 2 game winning streak (that can happen in less than a week) out of a tie for 2nd place in their division.

Yes, they blew some big leads, but give it a little time before you blow it up.  How about giving it a month or so (get to the 1/4 point of the season) and try to FIX the problems you have, give your coaching staff and players a chance to work through it, before you put in everyone's heads you are going to blow everything up.

Just now, mjd1001 said:

I know a bit off topic but regarding Vancouver...

I was really, really surprised that the team president hinted at rebuilding Vancouver after the game last night.  That situation can easily be turned around.

They have been leading, or 'in' every game late.  Yes they haven't gotten 'bounces' and that matters, but with one 'bounce' going the right way for them they would likely have a winning record.  They looked bad at times against the Sabres last night, but they were in the game, and played without their best D-man, who should be back shortly.  They are 4 points, a 2 game winning streak (that can happen in less than a week) out of a tie for 2nd place in their division.

Yes, they blew some big leads, but give it a little time before you blow it up.  How about giving it a month or so (get to the 1/4 point of the season) and try to FIX the problems you have, give your coaching staff and players a chance to work through it, before you put in everyone's heads you are going to blow everything up.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I think they will be fine...that's why they got Pilut. Willing to bet he looks a lot better under Meatball's system than he did last time he was here.

I hope so, but he is a left side puck mover, not exactly known for his D zone work.  

[Taro T]

One thing to remember is that, when healthy, Dahlin & Samuelsson can play 25 minutes / night & Power can play 23.  Lyubushkin vey likely being able to play 20 knocks a lot of minutes off the 3rd pairings usage.  Henri can play 20 too when back.  (Realizing full well that when injured, Samuelsson & Jokiharju are available for 0 minutes.)

But, they have 8 NHL caliber D even if Fitzgerald isn't exactly a good NHL D.  So, right now they still have 6 NHLers.  Lyubushkin isn't sitting out.  We've seen much worse in Sabres uniforms on a regular basis (looking at you Benoit-Meszaros and Irwin among others) and, if only up for a brief stint guys like Clague & Pritske have played in the NHL & can probably get by and maybe a guy like Prow is on such an adrenaline rush that he can get by too.  Heck, people were in love with Gragnani because he actually played well before he & the rest of the NHL realized what he actually was.

Let's wait and see just how long Jokiharju and Samuelsson are out before hitting the panic button.  These guys, excepting Buush all are young and as such are more likely than not to typically be healthy enough to play, so if somebody is brought in either they're burying Pilut in the AHL or will be back to 8 NHLers when Bryson or Fitzgerald get claimed off waivers should they make a trade now.

Yeah, the 1st 2 weeks in November could get ugly if neither is back and especially if, God forbid, they lose another, but isn't Granato's idea to keep the puck in the other guy's end?  ;)

Plus, Comrie & Anderson have stood on their heads when necessary so far, we might need to see them do it for 2 periods per night rather than just 1.

Winning the next 3 just became more important than before, but even w/ a depleted defense none should require extraordinary heroics to do so.  Get Henri back for the Pens & Muel back soon after & they'll be alright if the goaltending holds.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Taro T

[triumph_communes]

A lot of Van players frustrated that Myers is slow and fell off the cliff. Not sure that’s what we want. 

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

that's why they got Pilut.

They didn't get Pilut, Pilut came to them.  That said, from what I've heard of Pilut in training camp and in the A, yes they are very fortunate to have him.

[GASabresIUFAN]

 

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

A lot of Van players frustrated that Myers is slow and fell off the cliff. Not sure that’s what we want. 

Not at all. You don't want anything to do with Myers and his $6M contract (next year, too). Maybe Schenn would be fine, but Vancouver trusts him to be the savvy vet for Quinn Hughes so they overvalue him. If Muel does miss a bunch of time, though -- he'd be a potential target. You're looking for teams that are going for Bedard and are willing to do a "Scandella for a 4th" or equivalent.

[PerreaultForever]

Well this very situation is why I suggested taking Reilly and his contract when Boston waived him but that boat sailed. 

I don't think you really can replace Samuelsson without a big trade and making a big trade isn't a good idea on a team that seems to be building chemistry unless you give up virtually nothing from the roster. 

Definitely do not give up 2 firsts plus for Chychrun (as that's apparently his price tag). 

Lauzon has been scratched in Nashville. I'd take him for a cheap temp fix but with the Borowicki injury he might be in their plans again. 

For now you see how things go with Pilut and how long the injuries are going to be. If they are long term I'd certainly look to adding a responsible stay at home type guy if we could find one as the rest of the Rochester group is a little iffy. 

[Carmel Corn]

3 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

A lot of Van players frustrated that Myers is slow and fell off the cliff. Not sure that’s what we want. 

Where have you seen this?  All I know is last year he played 82 games and was a +15.  Not bad IMHO.  What if his role is a stay at home guy?  Salary isn't a concern this season and he is a UFA after the 2023/24 season.

[LTS]

On 10/23/2022 at 11:53 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

No, but his injury, long or short term, is making crystal clear how little depth we have at RHD.  I wrote in the off-season that KA should acquire two proven RHD as I had seen enough of Fitz to believe that he is at best an injury fill in.  KA signed Lyubushkin and kept Fitz as the 4th right side D.  I would have signed someone like Schenn instead and let Fitz anchor a pair in Rochester to protect UPL. 
 

Good thing that's what he's being used for?  Why do you think Schenn would have signed here?  To be the 7th or 8th defenseman?  Players who think they should be top 6 are not going to join a team where they know they won't be top 6.

23 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

A lot of Van players frustrated that Myers is slow and fell off the cliff. Not sure that’s what we want. 

No No No. That would trigger a marfan conversation and this place would never recover.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

Good thing that's what he's being used for?  Why do you think Schenn would have signed here?  To be the 7th or 8th defenseman?  Players who think they should be top 6 are not going to join a team where they know they won't be top 6.

No No No. That would trigger a marfan conversation and this place would never recover.

When I say injury fill in I mean a few games here and there.  If he has to be in the lineup for 20 straight we will regret it.  

Schenn certainly wanted a “guaranteed” roster spot.  Who doesn’t. However he signed an 850K contract, which implies to me there wasn’t exactly a bidding war for his services.  Might he have signed here on a two year $1 mill per season deal to be the 7th guy and mentor to the young guys?  I think he might have, but we’ll never know if KA even made an offer.  He targeted Lyubushkin and seems content with Fitz in the 7/8 spot.  

That said I thought and still think we need a upgrade over Fitz.  Now if Mule is our for a very extended period, I believe he needs to start working the phones to see what’s available and at what price. 

[Thorny]

On 10/23/2022 at 10:53 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

No, but his injury, long or short term, is making crystal clear how little depth we have at RHD.  I wrote in the off-season that KA should acquire two proven RHD as I had seen enough of Fitz to believe that he is at best an injury fill in.  KA signed Lyubushkin and kept Fitz as the 4th right side D.  I would have signed someone like Schenn instead and let Fitz anchor a pair in Rochester to protect UPL. 
 

I'm with you. 

I think we'll be ok with Pilut and Fitz in for Joki and Samuelsson. 

But that's the extent of our D depth. It's right now, proactively, that I'd like to see us bring in another guy on the level of those two (Pilut, Fitz) as insurance for if someone else goes down. Obviously we can't acquire someone who's as good as the guys we had starting in the top 6 to start the year, but someone who presents significantly less of a downturn than what I'd imagine Clague would provide is very key. 

[pi2000]

It's an encouraging start to the season, but we all know they lack depth, and at this point of the rebuild it's OK.

I, for one, hope he doesn't panic and sell off futures for a filler on D.    

[GASabresIUFAN]

14 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's an encouraging start to the season, but we all know they lack depth, and at this point of the rebuild it's OK.

I, for one, hope he doesn't panic and sell off futures for a filler on D.    

 Nothing KA has done in the last two season implies that is even a possibility.   If he makes a deal, I think you’ll see something like Schenn for a 2nd or less.  One interesting note is that Thomas Hickey is still un-signed.  The 33 year old LHD has been a very good player in this league and plays the type of game which would compliment our other guys.  Probably couldn’t hurt to bring him in for a look see. (Please note he was released from a PTO this camp by the Devils I think).  

Edited October 25, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LTS]

20 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 Nothing KA has done in the last two season implies that is even a possibility.   If he makes a deal, I think you’ll see something like Schenn for a 2nd or less.  One interesting note is that Thomas Hickey is still un-signed.  The 33 year old LHD has been a very good player in this league and plays the type of game which would compliment our other guys.  Probably couldn’t hurt to bring him in for a look see. (Please note he was released from a PTO this camp by the Devils I think).  

Hickey has family in Rochester.  I went to school with his cousin who lives here. That means nothing of course, but I felt like providing completely useless information since I have the day off from work.  🙂

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 minutes ago, LTS said:

Hickey has family in Rochester.  I went to school with his cousin who lives here. That means nothing of course, but I felt like providing completely useless information since I have the day off from work.  🙂

It could have been worse.  You could have said “Your best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with a girl who saw Hickey at 31 Flavors last night wearing an Amerks hat.”

[Crusader1969]

Canucks about to jump into the “be bad for Bedard” race.    
can Tyler Myers be a bottom pair Dman still? 
———

edit. Just noticing this was discussed up thread 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Crusader1969

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

Canucks about to jump into the “be bad for Bedard” race.    
can Tyler Myers be a bottom pair Dman still? 
———

edit. Just noticing this was discussed up thread 

I've always liked Myers, but I don't think KA would bring in an outside vet making that much money.  Even though the Sabres have the cap space, I think there is inevitably still a negative effect on the locker room.  That might change if Vancouver were to retain some salary.

[GASabresIUFAN]

13 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I've always liked Myers, but I don't think KA would bring in an outside vet making that much money.  Even though the Sabres have the cap space, I think there is inevitably still a negative effect on the locker room.  That might change if Vancouver were to retain some salary.

Why would it be a negative to the locker room?  If anything they’d likely view it as a positive that their GM has faith in them and is supporting the team in their hour of need.  When is the last time you heard players pissed that the GM made deadline additions to fill holes in the roster?  The added bonus is that he is signed for another year and depending on his play and our needs he could be traded at the deadline or in the offseason or if he plays well he could earn a role next season as well.

His cap hit would also free up KA to trade Bishop’s contract for other assets.  

[Crusader1969]

The main question I have about Myers is if he is good enough for the bottom pair?

if the answer is yes - the. You give the Canucks some draft picks and a middle of the road prospect  

taking him off their books is a huge bonus to them , he should come relatively cheap