Renovating KBC(BN Paywall)

[LabattBlue]

https://buffalonews.com/business/local/after-bills-stadium-deal-will-keybank-center-upgrades-become-next-priority/article_41cc63d6-2238-11ed-a23f-cff0095c9fe6.html

[PromoTheRobot]

What would be more cost effective? Renovation or building new?

[Zamboni]

Since a vast majority of people don’t pay for that Buffalo rag, could someone post some highlights Or some paragraphs to the article?

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

Since a vast majority of people don’t pay for that Buffalo rag, could someone post some highlights Or some paragraphs to the article?

Why would you want to see what's in a "rag"?

Classic.

Edited September 7, 2022 by PASabreFan
perfecting perfection

[PASabreFan]

I didn't have to pay.

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

What would be more cost effective? Renovation or building new?

The article suggests that renovation is the way to go. The writer cites a number of arenas of a similar vintage to KBC that have undergone renovations -- including TD Garden.

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

Since a vast majority of people don’t pay for that Buffalo rag, could someone post some highlights Or some paragraphs to the article?

It's not even a rag anymore. It's a news-content-based business venture. Such is life.

The person who wrote this piece is a very good writer, though. Mike Petro.

[That Aud Smell]

A few random highlights:

• Judging from industry standards, it's time for KBC to get an overhaul.
• The county owns the arena. The county says it's the team's obligation to improve and update the facility.
• The voice of PSE (Raccuia) declined comment on improving KBC, given that the deal on the new stadium isn't 100% final. He referred the writer to the Sabres for comment. The Sabres declined comment.
• It's a big question as to how a refurb would be financed, given the money devoted to the stadium deal. Many arena overhauls have been privately financed (including TD Garden (with the famously stingy Jacobs family)). An industry expert is quoted as saying that some public/private combination seems needed for KBC. 
• The fact that the Sabres have reportedly been losing money for a considerable period of time is discussed as an obstacle. (The alleged losses are pretty modest in the larger scope of PSE -- and are probably tax beneficial in some way for the larger enterprise.)
• KBC was built at a time when arenas were viewed as functional spaces to host hockey events for a large number of people. Current trends for arenas -- like stadiums -- favour reducing seating capacity and focusing more on upscale experiential elements (not just suites and club seating, but other things that will entice people to come to the games).

[PromoTheRobot]

20 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

The article suggests that renovation is the way to go. The writer cites a number of arenas of a similar vintage to KBC that have undergone renovations -- including TD Garden.

It's not even a rag anymore. It's a news-content-based business venture. Such is life.

The person who wrote this piece is a very good writer, though. Mike Petro.

Wouldn't it be easier, and you'd get a better result, by building a new arena on one of the parking lots next door? Cleveland expanded the footprint of Quicken Loan Arena, making the concourses wider and adding a lot of features. The arena was in use even with construction.

I guess you could do that to KBC. You could overbuild the plaza and Perry Street, even South Park Avenue, maybe incorporating the DLW Terminal into the arena. They did an amazing job with TD Garden in Boston. The arena is completely swallowed up by retail, restaurant and hotel development. You have to pass through it to get to the arena.

The footprint of that new development was a parking lot, and was where the old Boston Garden sat. But any new retail space in Buffalo would likely cannibalize existing shops and restaurants nearby. There's only so much money to spend in WNY.

Edited September 7, 2022 by PromoTheRobot

[shrader]

34 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Wouldn't it be easier, and you'd get a better result, by building a new arena on one of the parking lots next door? Cleveland expanded the footprint of Quicken Loan Arena, making the concourses wider and adding a lot of features. The arena was in use even with construction.

I guess you could do that to KBC. You could overbuild the plaza and Perry Street, even South Park Avenue, maybe incorporating the DLW Terminal into the arena. They did an amazing job with TD Garden in Boston. The arena is completely swallowed up by retail, restaurant and hotel development. You have to pass through it to get to the arena.

The footprint of that new development was a parking lot, and was where the old Boston Garden sat. But any new retail space in Buffalo would likely cannibalize existing shops and restaurants nearby. There's only so much money to spend in WNY.

Damn, I've been gone for a while.  That looks completely unrecognizable and I used to work right across the street.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You could overbuild the plaza and Perry Street, even South Park Avenue, maybe incorporating the DLW Terminal into the arena. They did an amazing job with TD Garden in Boston. The arena is completely swallowed up by retail, restaurant and hotel development. You have to pass through it to get to the arena.

I think this is the sort of thing that's being contemplated for KBC - there's specific mention of enclosing the plaza space as having been suggested by an architect.

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Why would you want to see what's in a "rag"?

Classic.

Michigan Rag, Maple Leaf Rag, or some other rag?

[LabattBlue]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

What would be more cost effective? Renovation or building new?

Second biggest issue besides cost, would be the fact that HarborCenter(and its associated parking and hotel), are connected to the arena. 
 

That being said, I would love a new arena!!!

[Eleven]

4 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Since a vast majority of people don’t pay for that Buffalo rag, could someone post some highlights Or some paragraphs to the article?

 

3 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Why would you want to see what's in a "rag"?

Classic.

It is $2.50 for a 28-page daily newspaper now.  It was 35 cents for a 60-page newspaper when I carried it.

[Zamboni]

10 minutes ago, Eleven said:

 

It is $2.50 for a 28-page daily newspaper now.  It was 35 cents for a 60-page newspaper when I carried it.

No thanks. I’d rather spend $2.50 on a 40 pound bag of dirt 😬

[LabattBlue]

53 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

No thanks. I’d rather spend $2.50 on a 40 pound bag of dirt 😬

A digital subscription doesn’t cost $2.50 a day.  😉

[RangerDave]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

It is $2.50 for a 28-page daily newspaper now.  It was 35 cents for a 60-page newspaper when I carried it.

Wow, what a youngin' you are!  When I toted the Courier-Express (which doesn't even exist anymore), it was 15 cents for the daily paper and 50 cents for Sundays.  I made 3 cents per paper which sounds like a puny amount (probably because it is?)  However, I am still amazed that as a 13-year old kid, 20% of the cost of that paper went to me!

[Ogre]

6 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Wouldn't it be easier, and you'd get a better result, by building a new arena

You illuminate an overlooked aspect of infrastructure in general. If you extrapolate the cost of vigorous maintenance over 50 years to simply keep a structure usable, is it not better to do average maintenance with the goal of building new every scheduled period?

Example-NYSDOT is spilt into regions, each deciding on their own how to approach the task of keeping roads operable. The regions that focused on rigorous maintenance have faced the same end as those who have had a moderate approach to maintenance, the bridge eventually needs to be replaced. 
 

Why bleed the funds dry to extend the eventual? 
Plan accordingly and it’s cheaper over time.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, RangerDave said:

Wow, what a youngin' you are!  When I toted the Courier-Express (which doesn't even exist anymore), it was 15 cents for the daily paper and 50 cents for Sundays.  I made 3 cents per paper which sounds like a puny amount (probably because it is?)  However, I am still amazed that as a 13-year old kid, 20% of the cost of that paper went to me!

Want ads used to be a cash cow for papers. Craiglist, etc. did away with that. 

[mjd1001]

To me the Arena being renovated/replaced is more important than a football stadium.  I know, there are issues with the Stadium in Orchard Park not lasting much longer. However, when I go to an outdoor event/football game, the 'bells and whistles' of the stadium aren't that big of a deal to me.  For some reason, an indoor game (hockey or NBA), I notice how much nicer/better the new places are than the older ones.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

To me the Arena being renovated/replaced is more important than a football stadium.  I know, there are issues with the Stadium in Orchard Park not lasting much longer. However, when I go to an outdoor event/football game, the 'bells and whistles' of the stadium aren't that big of a deal to me.  For some reason, an indoor game (hockey or NBA), I notice how much nicer/better the new places are than the older ones.

Interesting observation. As I've probably posted here before: The NFL - and increasingly the higher ed industry - are essentially real estate development ventures that use other activities (a competitive professional sport, a college education) as predicates for generating revenues from their facilities and their facilities' many amenities. When I read about all the cool sh1t that the new stadium is going to have, none of it (afaik anyway) excites me. But I don't think NFL teams develop these sports palaces in order to respond to their consumers' articulated needs or demands -- they develop them in order to provide money-making opportunities for the franchise (and, in so doing, look to educate (?) their consumers about what they actually want and require out of a sports entertainment experience and, by extension, receive more of their consumers' money). 

[mjd1001]

27 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Interesting observation. As I've probably posted here before: The NFL - and increasingly the higher ed industry - are essentially real estate development ventures that use other activities (a competitive professional sport, a college education) as predicates for generating revenues from their facilities and their facilities' many amenities. When I read about all the cool sh1t that the new stadium is going to have, none of it (afaik anyway) excites me. But I don't think NFL teams develop these sports palaces in order to respond to their consumers' articulated needs or demands -- they develop them in order to provide money-making opportunities for the franchise (and, in so doing, look to educate (?) their consumers about what they actually want and require out of a sports entertainment experience and, by extension, receive more of their consumers' money). 

I guess the reason I think the amenities/Arena is more important for a hockey game/NBA game rather than an NFL game or baseball game might have to do with the fact many Football games are outside, NHL games are inside.

If I'm at an event outdoors, I'm simply less concerned with the things around me other than the game.  The 'building' means more for an indoor event.

[Eli Cash]

I live within walking distance of TD Garden.  To echo the sentiments expressed above, the developers did a tremendous job with that project.  And, while not one to cry for the Bruins, that project opened literally days before the onset of the pandemic.  Nevertheless, they managed to retain almost every tenant.  Seems like a difficult template to emulate in Buffalo.  
 

KBC is in desperate need of something more than lipstick on a pig. I am cautiously optimistic PSE can execute on an appropriate overhaul.

[That Aud Smell]

49 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

If I'm at an event outdoors, I'm simply less concerned with the things around me other than the game. 

"Al fresco" = don't give "a f*ck, so" ...? 🤪

[PromoTheRobot]

4 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

To me the Arena being renovated/replaced is more important than a football stadium.  I know, there are issues with the Stadium in Orchard Park not lasting much longer. However, when I go to an outdoor event/football game, the 'bells and whistles' of the stadium aren't that big of a deal to me.  For some reason, an indoor game (hockey or NBA), I notice how much nicer/better the new places are than the older ones.

Football stadium ---> 50+ years old
Hockey arena ---> 26 years old

It can wait a year or two.

[Marvin]

Can a renovation of KBC be done in stages, or does it have to be one off-season?