Flames trade Tkachuk to Panthers for monster haul headlined by Huberdeau

[Curt]

23 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Maurice is bringing Kompon with him and word has it that Huddy will be going there.

Ekblad Montour Gudas Staal Forsling Sjalin Carlsson Bitetto are their D men and they trade Weegar??????????

 

Good move for the Flames under the conditions...not sure what Florida is thinking but you would think they are going to do something to help their D corps?

The Flames are going to have the same issue retaining Huberdeau and Weegar that they had with Tkachuk though.  Both are only under contract for 1 season.

[LTS]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

It just seems pretty likely that at least 1 of Hubie and Weegar isn't going to re-sign with Calgary, especially since they both came from Florida, which most Canadian NHL players seem to love, and given the twitter reports about Hubie already saying he's not re-signing.  So, unless Calgary signs them this summer, their impending departures are going to hang over the team all year, and they will most likely be traded at the deadline.

I think it would've been wiser for Calgary to trade Tkachuk for younger players that they could keep control of for several year.  This seems like an ill-advised, desperate move by a franchise reeling and under pressure from the departures of their 2 best players.

You'd have to think they wanted to do that, but Tkachuk saying he wasn't going to sign an extension in Calgary probably left them with having to take the best offer they were going to get that would lead to potential future success versus guaranteed. These are the trades where we, as fans, would love to know what other offers Calgary had to choose from. They have to hope they can flip the two players into something that will be useful to them. But they are definitely facing a challenge in the near future.

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I agree with this.  although Florida got younger and tougher, they also got slower and worse on D and they changed the chemistry of a very successful team.  And I could easily see Calgary going into a nose dive.

Florida is still going to be a very tough opponent for the Sabres though.

They also got rid of Brunette as coach.  They brought in Paul Maurice which I find laughable as he fired himself from Winnipeg only last December. The chemistry was changing, one way or the other. I'm not going to prognosticate a flop for Florida yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens this season with these changes.

[French Collection]

4 minutes ago, LTS said:

You'd have to think they wanted to do that, but Tkachuk saying he wasn't going to sign an extension in Calgary probably left them with having to take the best offer they were going to get that would lead to potential future success versus guaranteed. These are the trades where we, as fans, would love to know what other offers Calgary had to choose from. They have to hope they can flip the two players into something that will be useful to them. But they are definitely facing a challenge in the near future.

They also got rid of Brunette as coach.  They brought in Paul Maurice which I find laughable as he fired himself from Winnipeg only last December. The chemistry was changing, one way or the other. I'm not going to prognosticate a flop for Florida yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens this season with these changes.

Smaller or less desired markets need to draft and develop, then hope to retain talent.

I like Maurice, he’d worn out his message in Winnipeg. Florida has some similarities in a solid goalie, good scoring lines and a questionable defense.

[Weave]

11 minutes ago, LTS said:

You'd have to think they wanted to do that, but Tkachuk saying he wasn't going to sign an extension in Calgary probably left them with having to take the best offer they were going to get that would lead to potential future success versus guaranteed. These are the trades where we, as fans, would love to know what other offers Calgary had to choose from. They have to hope they can flip the two players into something that will be useful to them. But they are definitely facing a challenge in the near future.

They also got rid of Brunette as coach.  They brought in Paul Maurice which I find laughable as he fired himself from Winnipeg only last December. The chemistry was changing, one way or the other. I'm not going to prognosticate a flop for Florida yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens this season with these changes.

Your second paragraph makes a point.  The style of play Maurice wants to implement may need Tkachuck more than it needs JH.

[Taro T]

54 minutes ago, LTS said:

You'd have to think they wanted to do that, but Tkachuk saying he wasn't going to sign an extension in Calgary probably left them with having to take the best offer they were going to get that would lead to potential future success versus guaranteed. These are the trades where we, as fans, would love to know what other offers Calgary had to choose from. They have to hope they can flip the two players into something that will be useful to them. But they are definitely facing a challenge in the near future.

They also got rid of Brunette as coach.  They brought in Paul Maurice which I find laughable as he fired himself from Winnipeg only last December. The chemistry was changing, one way or the other. I'm not going to prognosticate a flop for Florida yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens this season with these changes.

Agree very much w/ the 1st paragraph.

Calgary knew they had one more year of Tkachuk & then would have nothing for him except cap space.

By trading him, they got 1 year of 2 very good players and also a good prospect & a 1st.  IF they can extend 1 or both of the players, it's a good deal for Calgary.  If they can't, at the end of the day on the 1st day of the next league year in a worst case they'll still have the same cap space they would've had anyway & 2 pieces that might help in the future.  And if things go kerplewy this year, they can convert Huberdeau &/or Weegar into assets at the deadline.

Would like to believe they could've done better, but this might've been the best offer they got.  And they likely will still be a playoff team.  Going full on futures might not have yielded that same result.

 

IMHO, it makes sense from the Cats perspective, but injuries to any of their 7 core guys could really be devastating.

[Eleven]

26 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And they likely will still be a playoff team. 

2021-22 Sabres could be a playoff team in that division.  

[Taro T]

43 minutes ago, Eleven said:

2021-22 Sabres could be a playoff team in that division.  

True.

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

The Flames are going to have the same issue retaining Huberdeau and Weegar that they had with Tkachuk though.  Both are only under contract for 1 season.

People are missing the fact Florida saves themselves from inevitably getting a considerable bit worse (going from a reasonable contract, prime aged Huberdeau to an overpaid, post 30 Huberdeau) by perhaps getting very slightly worse in the near team. 

The lesser of two evils. And on the fly step back to allow the building of more long term success. Anything they lose in the now term is *more* than paid for by the benefits of prime Tkachuk over an aging Huberdeau in a couple years.

The small step back is intentional, and the intelligence. It’s Calgary with the longer term issues 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Thorny

[Weave]

23 minutes ago, Thorny said:

People are missing the fact Florida saves themselves from inevitably getting a considerable bit worse (going from a reasonable contract, prime aged Huberdeau to an overpaid, post 30 Huberdeau) by perhaps getting very slightly worse in the near team. 

The lesser of two evils. And on the fly step back to allow the building of more long term success. Anything they lose in the now term is *more* than paid for by the benefits of prime Tkachuk over an aging Huberdeau in a couple years.

The small step back is intentional, and the intelligence. It’s Calgary with the longer term issues 

I’m just blown away by the price Florida has paid for their last 3 trades. They have to be all in on now.  I get it, but man, not having a 1st rd pick in several years is gonna hurt down the line.  Hopefully for their fans it pans out.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

I’m just blown away by the price Florida has paid for their last 3 trades. They have to be all in on now.  I get it, but man, not having a 1st rd pick in several years is gonna hurt down the line.  Hopefully for their fans it pans out.

There’s a massive difference between trading away futures from a team solidly in the “win now” window, and what Murray did in trying to artificially *create* a window before its time has come. The hoarding of picks is more necessary when the odds of any one hitting to the degree you need them to, as a building team, is low, as your are trying to fill multiple holes, so you compensate by giving yourself as many kicks at the apple as possible. 

Florida will need to (continue to) draft well, a proposition I’d bet on, but what they’ve done is extend their window rather than shorten it. Huberdeau was a key player and he was going likely to decline in performance, as his salary goes up, torpedoing his value to the team relative to what it formerly was. 

Paying Weegar and a first THREE years from now is not insignificant, but it’s not nearly as significant as the transfer of timelines between Tkachuk and Huberdeau. It’s a *massive* prime years re-up to one of your central players one only *hopes* a draft pick with a 5-6 year ETA could make a dent in, re: value. It’s frankly impressive. 

The pick is a maybe 3 years from now that maybe arrives 6 years from now. You can upgrade from one hundred point player to another hundred point player, 5 years younger, you do it.  

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I’m just blown away by the price Florida has paid for their last 3 trades. They have to be all in on now.  I get it, but man, not having a 1st rd pick in several years is gonna hurt down the line.  Hopefully for their fans it pans out.

Was it that high? You have to assume that those 3 first round picks are going to be late, and, most likely, none of them were going to turn into a Tkachuk. Weager’s replaceable.

I think Florida gat better.

[Weave]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

There’s a massive difference between trading away futures from a team solidly in the “win now” window, and what Murray did in trying to artificially *create* a window before its time has come. The hoarding of picks is more necessary when the odds of any one hitting to the degree you need them to, as a building team, is low, as your are trying to fill multiple holes, so you compensate by giving yourself as many kicks at the apple as possible. 

Florida will need to (continue to) draft well, a proposition I’d bet on, but what they’ve done is extend their window rather than shorten it. Huberdeau was a key player and he was going likely to decline in performance, as his salary goes up, torpedoing his value to the team relative to what it formerly was. 

Paying Weegar and a first THREE years from now is not insignificant, but it’s not nearly as significant as the transfer of timelines between Tkachuk and Huberdeau. It’s a *massive* prime years re-up to one of your central players one only *hopes* a draft pick with a 5-6 year ETA could make a dent in, re: value. It’s frankly impressive. 

The pick is a maybe 3 years from now that maybe arrives 6 years from now. You can upgrade from one hundred point player to another hundred point player, 5 years younger, you do it.  

I think you are greatly mischaracterizing what GMTM was trying to do.  He was getting veteran help for very valuable Tankfruit.  He wasn’t escalating into “win now” mode.  He was bolstering his precious new stars.  Remember, there was absolutely nothing surrounding Sam and Jack.

He executed it poorly.  But that’s another story.

[Thorny]

43 minutes ago, Weave said:

I think you are greatly mischaracterizing what GMTM was trying to do.  He was getting veteran help for very valuable Tankfruit.  He wasn’t escalating into “win now” mode.  He was bolstering his precious new stars.  Remember, there was absolutely nothing surrounding Sam and Jack.

He executed it poorly.  But that’s another story.

I agree with you that it was the execution that failed. It doesn’t change the fact he was making those moves at a different point than what Florida is at now, making them strategically different. Plenty would argue you can’t attempt what Murray did, and like you I would disagree with that. But, at the point the Sabres were at, a very strong case could be made to slow play it with the picks, an approach more like we are seeing now. 

The difference being with Florida, the choice is less up for debate. The option isn’t between keeping this Huberdeau or giving up him + assets for Tkachuk. The equation is: “swap” Huberdeau for what likely given relevant aging curves ends up being a increasingly decreased-production Huberdeau at a significantly worse value than before as his contract will be greater: ie- re-sign him at 30 OR give up a couple assets for a player that DOES probably amount to about as much as we’ve seen them get from Huberdeau, over the next several years (as Tkachuk is entering his prime.)

To me it’s a no brainer. Especially when, unlike for Murray, the “slow approach” method is a less satisfying option. They just won the Presidents Trophy. No use dealing Huberdeau for futures instead of the trade OR extension when you can move probably at worst laterally between two CORE players, but for an extended period of time, longer than if you had kept the original player, which is incredibly valuable. 

Way more valuable than a 1st 3 years from now and Weegar. It’s an on-the-fly window extension.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Thorny

[kas23]

6 hours ago, LTS said:

 

They also got rid of Brunette as coach.  They brought in Paul Maurice which I find laughable as he fired himself from Winnipeg only last December. The chemistry was changing, one way or the other. I'm not going to prognosticate a flop for Florida yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens this season with these changes.

I don’t like how he jumped teams like that. He just signed a 3 year contract and quickly lost love for the game, but suddenly found it again after sitting on his butt for 6 months. Kinda like Florida is his rebound. Florida should’ve sent them compensation. 

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, kas23 said:

I don’t like how he jumped teams like that. He just signed a 3 year contract and quickly lost love for the game, but suddenly found it again after sitting on his butt for 6 months. Kinda like Florida is his rebound. Florida should’ve sent them compensation. 

I don’t know if he lost his love of the game. I think he lost the room and had nothing left in his bag of tricks to get those guys going. I think he was going to get fired so he resigned first.

[Digger]

Treliving says the deal with Florida was by far the best available.  Seems a little bit surly in the interview but he's defending the Flames franchise and the city of Calgary.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Digger

[Buffalonill]

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

People are missing the fact Florida saves themselves from inevitably getting a considerable bit worse (going from a reasonable contract, prime aged Huberdeau to an overpaid, post 30 Huberdeau) by perhaps getting very slightly worse in the near team. 

The lesser of two evils. And on the fly step back to allow the building of more long term success. Anything they lose in the now term is *more* than paid for by the benefits of prime Tkachuk over an aging Huberdeau in a couple years.

The small step back is intentional, and the intelligence. It’s Calgary with the longer term issues 

Players like Huberdeau get better as the age on 

Players like Tkachuk break down at 27-28

 

[nfreeman]

6 hours ago, Thorny said:

There’s a massive difference between trading away futures from a team solidly in the “win now” window, and what Murray did in trying to artificially *create* a window before its time has come. The hoarding of picks is more necessary when the odds of any one hitting to the degree you need them to, as a building team, is low, as your are trying to fill multiple holes, so you compensate by giving yourself as many kicks at the apple as possible. 

Florida will need to (continue to) draft well, a proposition I’d bet on, but what they’ve done is extend their window rather than shorten it. Huberdeau was a key player and he was going likely to decline in performance, as his salary goes up, torpedoing his value to the team relative to what it formerly was. 

Paying Weegar and a first THREE years from now is not insignificant, but it’s not nearly as significant as the transfer of timelines between Tkachuk and Huberdeau. It’s a *massive* prime years re-up to one of your central players one only *hopes* a draft pick with a 5-6 year ETA could make a dent in, re: value. It’s frankly impressive. 

The pick is a maybe 3 years from now that maybe arrives 6 years from now. You can upgrade from one hundred point player to another hundred point player, 5 years younger, you do it.  

This is a compelling argument on paper.  

Florida was a great team and offensive juggernaut last year though and a strong cup contender this coming season as well.  They just traded their 2nd best player, who was tied for 2nd in the NHL in scoring last year, and their 2nd best defenseman.  That creates a significant likelihood that they won’t be as good next year as they would’ve been without this trade.  And this coming year could very likely be their best chance at a cup in their entire contender window.

In theory yes it extends their window.  And it’s quite possible that Tkachuk shines in the playoffs and they go on a deep run, or even a few of them. But it seems like they took an actual, tangible step back and hurt their chances, which were really good, in the here and now, in exchange for a good theory.

It seems maybe too clever by half.  I don’t think I’d have wanted the Sabres to do this if they were In Florida’s position.

[LTS]

2 hours ago, Digger said:

Treliving says the deal with Florida was by far the best available.  Seems a little bit surly in the interview but he's defending the Flames franchise and the city of Calgary.

He has to be a bit surly. If you read Gaudreau's Player's Tribune article it seems like it was well known he wasn't going to stay in Calgary. At the same time his team was in the playoffs and had a chance to do something so if he just traded away Gaudreau he's toast. He's forced to hold him and lose him for nothing and then Tkachuk comes along and all that publicity on extensions comes out further handcuffing the man.

Now, I won't say he's a fantastic GM because I don't think he is. But I think I'd be a tad put off by having this situation basically forced on him.

[French Collection]

7 hours ago, nfreeman said:

This is a compelling argument on paper.  

Florida was a great team and offensive juggernaut last year though and a strong cup contender this coming season as well.  They just traded their 2nd best player, who was tied for 2nd in the NHL in scoring last year, and their 2nd best defenseman.  That creates a significant likelihood that they won’t be as good next year as they would’ve been without this trade.  And this coming year could very likely be their best chance at a cup in their entire contender window.

In theory yes it extends their window.  And it’s quite possible that Tkachuk shines in the playoffs and they go on a deep run, or even a few of them. But it seems like they took an actual, tangible step back and hurt their chances, which were really good, in the here and now, in exchange for a good theory.

It seems maybe too clever by half.  I don’t think I’d have wanted the Sabres to do this if they were In Florida’s position.

They lost Huberdeau, Weegar, Giroux and Marchment. The last two were cap casualties and were nearly point per game producers. Chiarot is gone as well.

I don’t think they will be as good. Tkachuk is the only significant piece coming in.

Edited July 25, 2022 by French Collection

[ddaryl]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:00 AM, Doohickie said:

 

Add in a 1st in 2022 and Devon Levi for Reinhart from last season... That a lot of future capital 

[GASabresIUFAN]

And Florida prospect pool is limited at best.  They were one of 7 teams without a single prospect in the NHL Network top 50 prospects.  They also have no one in Wheeler’s top 50 (and no one in his 30 Honorable mentions).

 

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

And Florida prospect pool is limited at best.  They were one of 7 teams without a single prospect in the NHL Network top 50 prospects.  They also have no one in Wheeler’s top 50 (and no one in his 30 Honorable mentions).

 

They certainly won’t be winning the offseason Futures Cup, that’s for sure 

[Digger]

I had to laugh at one comment made by Bill Zito in the Florida press conference introducing Matthew Tkachuk today.  He called him a unicorn.  Wait that's what Mike Peca said about JJ Peterka (no one like him - a unicorn).

[Buffalonill]

24 minutes ago, Digger said:

I had to laugh at one comment made by Bill Zito in the Florida press conference introducing Matthew Tkachuk today.  He called him a unicorn.  Wait that's what Mike Peca said about JJ Peterka (no one like him - a unicorn).

So hes never seen the likes of  Bertuzzi , Roenick or K Tkachuk.

Interesting.