Sabres vs Red Wings vs Sens (vs CBJ) - Who is a better team right now?

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

The Sabres were hands-down the worst NHL team going into last season. A five-win team at best. Anyone remember that?

What's your point though? Going in we were. We really only got better after the Eichel trade. 

(and hands down I think we were supposed to be 2nd worst. Most people had Arizona pegged as worst)

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Let's look at this. Ottawa added Debrincat, Talbot, Giroux. How do they match up to what Buffalo has?

Detroit: Copp, Perron, Chairiot, Matta, and Husso. How do they match up to what Buffalo has?

Which of these guys are clear improvements over the players the Sabres have?

People seem to forget that both these teams were considerably ahead of the Sabres most of the season and the young Sabres over took them in the last 3rd of the season.  They had to make moves because they both lack the pipeline of the Sabres.  Despite the Sabres adding Samuelsson, Power, Quinn and JJP to the NHL roster, our pipeline is still deeper than Ott and Det.  

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Let's look at this. Ottawa added Debrincat, Talbot, Giroux. How do they match up to what Buffalo has?

Detroit: Copp, Perron, Chairiot, Matta, and Husso. How do they match up to what Buffalo has?

Which of these guys are clear improvements over the players the Sabres have?

Debrincat, 70 pt winger. This is the hardest one because idk who on Buffalo I can put here. In theory and time maybe Quinn is that player but right now, it is basically Jeff Skinner?

Talbot, starting goalie: That's easy Comrie.

Giroux, 65 pt w/c. Tage Thompson fills this role and maybe Cozens creeps closer this season. I think we can do what Giroux brings and I love him as a player

Copp, 45pt c/w. Olofsson, Okposo, Tuch, all fill that role. I do like Copp though.

Perron, 55pt w. Much of the list above could go here but I think a 55pt season from Tuch is logical.

Chairiot, 20pt defender. Samuelsson will get 20 pts this year.

Matta, 15-20pt defender. Owen Power just laughed because he'll have 20 pts by New Years.

Husso, Comrie again.

 

Idk, I think there is certainly the potential for Detroit or Ottawa to be better than Buffalo but again they had to sign these players to fill their holes. I think the reactions are based on this belief that Buffalo sat idle and that means they didn't improve but as others have mentioned, we improved at game 55 of the season, not in the offseason.

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

People seem to forget that both these teams were considerably ahead of the Sabres most of the season and the young Sabres over took them in the last 3rd of the season.  They had to make moves because they both lack the pipeline of the Sabres.  Despite the Sabres adding Samuelsson, Power, Quinn and JJP to the NHL roster, our pipeline is still deeper than Ott and Det.  

Fully agree and this point is the biggest one that is just ignored by the average person. Those teams had to make the moves because they didn't have a Mattias Samulesson, Owen Power, JJP, Jack Quinn, Mitts, Krebs whatever to take the spot as they got healthy or improved.

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

Everyone keeps saying the mantra over and over about our good young players. Those teams, especially Detroit and Ottawa also have a lot of good young players. They've now added good veterans to play with them and lead them and thus they have a step up on us. 

 

[LGR4GM]

Ottawa Average Age: 24.7 forwards, 27 defense

Detroit Average Age: 25.8 forwards, 27.2 defense

Buffalo Average Age: 25.4 forwards, 23 defense

Average ages of the rosters. Forwards are close but ours will go down once JJP is added to that list (I took it from capfriendly). Defense... just smoking the other teams with our ages. Detroits will drop a little when Edvinsson gets added.

[PromoTheRobot]

55 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

What's your point though? Going in we were. We really only got better after the Eichel trade. 

(and hands down I think we were supposed to be 2nd worst. Most people had Arizona pegged as worst)

My point is no one knows what you have till you play. As for last year, they were playing pretty well even before the Eichel trade, before all our goalies got injured. Tuch and Krebs we're upgrades though.

This roster is who Adams and Granato want. 

[PerreaultForever]

28 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This roster is who Adams and Granato want. 

That will be the party line, but it's not necessarily the truth. If the plan was Comrie (for example) they wouldn't have tried to trade for Murray. We will never know how many deals they tried to make or offers they made never happened because of one reason or another. 

[triumph_communes]

Buffalo was only out of the playoffs because of abysmal goaltending. If they got average goaltending now they’re jumping way ahead of these teams. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not necessarily looking at the same players they did, but rather at the idea of filling the holes now so that the team can win now rather than waiting for the holes to slowly fill with prospects that develop. 

Everyone keeps saying the mantra over and over about our good young players. Those teams, especially Detroit and Ottawa also have a lot of good young players. They've now added good veterans to play with them and lead them and thus they have a step up on us. 

I'm not sure why people think Comrie is so good. So yes, I think Talbot will be a lot better. There is a possible, stress possible, upside to Comrie and he might be better than he's ever been, but really, our goaltending is still questionable at best. 

Copp apparently wanted to be near family in Michigan so he wasn't an option I guess but he would have been good. imo we didn't add a good enough goalie or fill the other holes adequately.

I don’t think that those teams have the same amount of young talent as Buffalo does.  The depth isn’t there, though Ottawa is close.

Ottawa has a depth of young forward talent right now, maybe better than Buffalo’s, though Buffalo has more forward prospects on the way.  I like what Buffalo has on defense better than what Ottawa has, both for now and the future.  I like what Ottawa did with their goaltending.  They are probably ahead of Buffalo there too for now.

I did not like Detroit’s offseason.  Copp is good but they better pray he keeps up that offensive production.  He doesn’t have a long track record of producing but that was a decent deal.  Husso is an ok bet, but is he really better than Comrie for example?  Their track records are not too dissimilar.  Either one could flop.  The Chariot deal is terrible IMO.  I know Yzerman gets an auto pass, but to me, it doesn’t look good right now.

Ottawa and Buffalo are pretty close, but I don’t think Detroit gained any ground this offseason.

[PromoTheRobot]

56 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That will be the party line, but it's not necessarily the truth. If the plan was Comrie (for example) they wouldn't have tried to trade for Murray. We will never know how many deals they tried to make or offers they made never happened because of one reason or another. 

I meant that the core of players we saw last year will continue to be the core. That's why we aren't swinging deals left and right. As for Murray, are you sure he was going to be the guy? Or was that deal more about swapping pick 16 for 7? Either way, if you don't have plans B, C, D, etc. you aren't doing your job.

[French Collection]

12 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I meant that the core of players we saw last year will continue to be the core. That's why we aren't swinging deals left and right. As for Murray, are you sure he was going to be the guy? Or was that deal more about swapping pick 16 for 7? Either way, if you don't have plans B, C, D, etc. you aren't doing your job.

I think you are right about Murray. They may have been focused on the pick and knew they could flip him to the Leafs or use him as part of a 3 headed monster.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Curt said:

I don’t think that those teams have the same amount of young talent as Buffalo does.  The depth isn’t there, though Ottawa is close.

Ottawa has a depth of young forward talent right now, maybe better than Buffalo’s, though Buffalo has more forward prospects on the way.  I like what Buffalo has on defense better than what Ottawa has, both for now and the future.  I like what Ottawa did with their goaltending.  They are probably ahead of Buffalo there too for now.

I did not like Detroit’s offseason.  Copp is good but they better pray he keeps up that offensive production.  He doesn’t have a long track record of producing but that was a decent deal.  Husso is an ok bet, but is he really better than Comrie for example?  Their track records are not too dissimilar.  Either one could flop.  The Chariot deal is terrible IMO.  I know Yzerman gets an auto pass, but to me, it doesn’t look good right now.

Ottawa and Buffalo are pretty close, but I don’t think Detroit gained any ground this offseason.

We could go on with hypotheticals all off season and we won't get anywhere because the Sabres being better is a faith thing. You have to assume the kids will be better and do what you think they will. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. The only certainty to me is our goaltending is bottom tier in the league. Better than last year, but not by a lot. Yes, Husso is better than Comrie (as of now). 

To your first sentence, they don't have to have the same amount of young talent, it's a question of how much young talent they have that is ready to contribute. The argument about who will be better 5 years from now is different to who will be better now, this coming season. 

Detroit had the same number of wins as us, 1 less point, so basically the same as us. They have added several pieces and are now definitely a better team. We MIGHT be a better team but at this point are kind of the same. Ottawa is definitely better.

A while back, maybe 2 seasons, I said it would be interesting to compare our plan with Ottawa's. At first Ottawa seemed to have the better plan (imo) then last season they didn't progress, some of their prospects didn't step up and we seemed to maybe be moving ahead. Now, with these massive additions (imo) they have leaped ahead using a plan I was advocating but it appears KA is not. He thinks we need more patience. Good for him, he has job security I guess, we fans have to just suffer another year of frustration. 

I think Ottawa could make the playoffs. Detroit will be competitive to the end but likely miss. We will not be in the running. That's my opinion at this point. Of course if we add Kadri and Klingberg everything changes.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I meant that the core of players we saw last year will continue to be the core. That's why we aren't swinging deals left and right. As for Murray, are you sure he was going to be the guy? Or was that deal more about swapping pick 16 for 7? Either way, if you don't have plans B, C, D, etc. you aren't doing your job.

Pretty sure if that deal happened it was Murray instead of Comrie. Doesn't make sense otherwise. If KA's plan was to pick up contracts just for picks JVR would be a Sabre right now and so would Nick Foligno. 

[French Collection]

I agree with posters that say an even goal differential puts a team in the playoff picture. I’ve heard Scotty Bowman say that this is an important stat he uses to grade a team. The Sabres were 232 GF and 290 GA.

Better goaltending than last season is not a stretch. I know Comrie is an unknown but I think he can play a decent 40 games, maybe 50. Anderson/UPL/Subban can make up the rest of the games with Levi/Portillo getting a couple in at season’s end.

The defense is young but improving. That should also help the goals against. Power and Lyubushkin are better than Pysyk/Miller/Butcher.

I don’t feel I am going out on a limb by saying they can improve goals against by 10 this season.

Looking at the current roster I found it easy to project every player to get a bump up simply by playing 82 games. That won’t happen so I had to temper my enthusiasm and attempt to forecast realistic numbers for these guys. Rookies like Quinn, Peterka and Power are unknowns so those figures are pure speculation on my part. I think they will have significant roles and will contribute accordingly.

I guessed that most players’ numbers were the same as last year but a few dropped due to a reduced role and slight regression. A few took big jumps due to healthier seasons.

Thompson 36

Skinner 32

Olofsson 25

Tuch 20

Quinn 20

Mittelstadt 19

Cozens 18

Okposo 16

Dahlin 15

Krebs 12

Peterka 12

Girgensons 12

Power 12

Hinestroza 11

Asplund 9

Jokiharju 3

Samuelsson 1

Bryson 1

Lyubushkin 1

Ruotsalainen/Bjork/Murray/Malone/Biro 5

Pilut/Fitzgerald//Clague 1

These numbers would put them around 280 in GF and GA. I think they are achievable.

 

 

[LGR4GM]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

We could go on with hypotheticals all off season and we won't get anywhere because the Sabres being better is a faith thing. You have to assume the kids will be better and do what you think they will. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. The only certainty to me is our goaltending is bottom tier in the league. Better than last year, but not by a lot. Yes, Husso is better than Comrie (as of now). 

To your first sentence, they don't have to have the same amount of young talent, it's a question of how much young talent they have that is ready to contribute. The argument about who will be better 5 years from now is different to who will be better now, this coming season. 

Detroit had the same number of wins as us, 1 less point, so basically the same as us. They have added several pieces and are now definitely a better team. We MIGHT be a better team but at this point are kind of the same. Ottawa is definitely better.

A while back, maybe 2 seasons, I said it would be interesting to compare our plan with Ottawa's. At first Ottawa seemed to have the better plan (imo) then last season they didn't progress, some of their prospects didn't step up and we seemed to maybe be moving ahead. Now, with these massive additions (imo) they have leaped ahead using a plan I was advocating but it appears KA is not. He thinks we need more patience. Good for him, he has job security I guess, we fans have to just suffer another year of frustration. 

I think Ottawa could make the playoffs. Detroit will be competitive to the end but likely miss. We will not be in the running. That's my opinion at this point. Of course if we add Kadri and Klingberg everything changes.

Which pieces did Detroit add that make them significantly better than Buffalo? Who is the equivalent piece in the Sabres you would compare the addition to?

Which pieces did Ottawa add that make them significantly better than Buffalo? Who is the equivalent piece in the Sabres you would compare the addition to?

[SabresVet]

16 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Buffalo was only out of the playoffs because of abysmal goaltending. If they got average goaltending now they’re jumping way ahead of these teams. 

And who is responsible for ensuring NHL-quality goalies are on the roster?

Adams walked into a bad situation with little in the minors, but did himself no favors.  It seemed like last season there was no backup plan if Ullmark didn't re-sign leaving only Anderson and a host of journeyman.  Not surprising their goaltending was a weak spot and lost them games.    

For all the credit the GM gets for improving the organizational talent at F and D, his moves in goal have been uninspiring.  Perhaps Comrie gives them 40-50 games and there's improvement but that remains to be seen. 

[Doohickie]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

We will not be in the running. That's my opinion at this point. Of course if we add Kadri and Klingberg everything changes.

That's a terrible take.  That's my opinion at this point.

[Crusader1969]

The more important question is who is better in 2 or 3 years? 

I love where Buffalo is going. I honestly think that this is the last season we experience without the playoffs. 

In 3 or 4 years, we are serious contenders for the cup.

 

[Weave]

12 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

The more important question is who is better in 2 or 3 years? 

 

It’s been the same question for a decade….

[Crusader1969]

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

It’s been the same question for a decade….

i dont think so, there was real optimism when they drafted Eichel in 2005 for a year or two but I dont think there has been any optimism of playoffs and definitely not cup contender for at least the last 5 years or so.

 

 

[Weave]

1 minute ago, Crusader1969 said:

i dont think so, there was real optimism when they drafted Eichel in 2005 for a year or two but I dont think there has been any optimism of playoffs and definitely not cup contender for at least the last 5 years or so.

 

 

Really? 2-3 years has been the mantra now for as long as I can remember.

[mjd1001]

18 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Debrincat, 70 pt winger. This is the hardest one because idk who on Buffalo I can put here. In theory and time maybe Quinn is that player but right now, it is basically Jeff Skinner?

Talbot, starting goalie: That's easy Comrie.

Giroux, 65 pt w/c. Tage Thompson fills this role and maybe Cozens creeps closer this season. I think we can do what Giroux brings and I love him as a player

Copp, 45pt c/w. Olofsson, Okposo, Tuch, all fill that role. I do like Copp though.

Perron, 55pt w. Much of the list above could go here but I think a 55pt season from Tuch is logical.

Chairiot, 20pt defender. Samuelsson will get 20 pts this year.

Matta, 15-20pt defender. Owen Power just laughed because he'll have 20 pts by New Years.

Husso, Comrie again.

 

I'm prepared to be wrong, but I think Giroux is almost done.  Too many miles on the tires, the games I saw him play last year he looked to be a shadow of what he was.  If he puts in 25 goals, I'll admit I am wrong but if Ottawa is planning on him in that role, I think they will be upset.

The fact that both of these teams made a lot of what they think will be 'key' outside additions might be something that takes them a few weeks to 'gel'.  I expect the Sabres, being what we are told is a 'tight knit group', having an advantage there.

[Crusader1969]

27 minutes ago, Weave said:

Really? 2-3 years has been the mantra now for as long as I can remember.

where do you think this team will be in 2 or 3 years? 

a) bottom dwellers

b) Stuck in the middle   (bottom 5 to 10)

c) Marginal Playoff contender

d) Legit Playoff contender

e) Cup Contender

[Ogelthorpe]

10 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

where do you think this team will be in 2 or 3 years? 

a) bottom dwellers

b) Stuck in the middle   (bottom 5 to 10)

c) Marginal Playoff contender

d) Legit Playoff contender

e) Cup Contender

D

[Johnny Utah]

I like the above post but truly think next guy to pop is Peterka. Absolutely love his game.....more than Quinn and Krebs today (who are both very very solid)