KBC Renovation...all quiet?

[LabattBlue]

There were rumblings last year, that there may be a joint announcement of new Bills stadium, and KBC renovation, but that didn't happen?  Any news that I may have missed regarding KBC renovation?

[PASabreFan]

This needs to stop. There wasn't anything wrong with the stadium and there isn't anything wrong with the arena that some modest owner funded improvements wouldn't fix.

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

This needs to stop. There wasn't anything wrong with the stadium and there isn't anything wrong with the arena that some modest owner funded improvements wouldn't fix.

The stadium has structural damage

[Taro T]

43 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

There were rumblings last year, that there may be a joint announcement of new Bills stadium, and KBC renovation, but that didn't happen?  Any news that I may have missed regarding KBC renovation?

Always thought that talk presumed the football stadium was going downtown and then the MMArena would get upgrades to keep pace w/ the new stadium.

They did do a study of possible renovations to the MMArena back before the world shut down, but haven't seen any movement following the studies & haven't heard of anything major since.  A lot of the stuff proposed wouldn't really fly in Buffalo IMHO.  Glad that one that they brought in focus groups for went away.

[Doohickie]

23 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

There wasn't anything wrong with the stadium

Upper deck issues at Highmark Stadium played role in Bills stadium deal

Quote

there were issues discovered with that area of the stadium which would require replacing seating and building supports. That would have had to be addressed in the next five to seven years

 

[MattPie]

Interesting about the Ralph. Somehow I suspect they could have cobbled together the infrastructure needs temporarily for the next few years until permanent solutions could be found. Run bus shuttles to the metro line, make the Skyway one-way on game days to help with the traffic, etc. I think not putting the stadium downtown will end up being a mistake for the city for decades.

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

This needs to stop. There wasn't anything wrong with the stadium and there isn't anything wrong with the arena that some modest owner funded improvements wouldn't fix.

What needs to stop?  For all we know, there is a handshake agreement with the County and State that they would foot the bill for Bills stadium, and the Pegula's would cover KBC renovation costs.

 

As an aside, if you don't think KBC is due for a major renovation, you haven't been there in a long long time.

[PASabreFan]

23 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

What needs to stop?  For all we know, there is a handshake agreement with the County and State that they would foot the bill for Bills stadium, and the Pegula's would cover KBC renovation costs.

 

As an aside, if you don't think KBC is due for a major renovation, you haven't been there in a long long time.

I was just there. I found nothing to bitch about and I love to bitch.

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Upper deck issues at Highmark Stadium played role in Bills stadium deal

 

And they still let 10s of thousands sit up there. Posturing, I'd say.

[In The Buff]

32 minutes ago, MattPie said:

Interesting about the Ralph. Somehow I suspect they could have cobbled together the infrastructure needs temporarily for the next few years until permanent solutions could be found. Run bus shuttles to the metro line, make the Skyway one-way on game days to help with the traffic, etc. I think not putting the stadium downtown will end up being a mistake for the city for decades.

I agree. Whatever anyones thoughts on it, in the end after decades of being able to study the impacts of various stadium locations on the region, we settle for a smaller stadium next to the old one. Seriously thats what we go with? Idk how that is anything other than missing an opportunity in a region lacking opportunities.

Did we plan on ways to maximize the revenue this stadium can generate? Did we have any strategic thinking about any of this? KBC needs renovating? Perhaps we couldve combined the 2 projects into a sports corridor? Or how about our City has needed a new convention center for years, decades even. Dallas has their huge stadium, that also houses conventions & concerts & brings in revenue every month of the year. Will our new stadium do that in Orchard Park? Nope, we just spent a billion $$ on a smaller stadium next to the old one for what, to be used 15 or so days a year max?

Glad the team will be here in the future but this was a golden opportunity & in the end we just settled for a smaller stadium next to the old one

[Eleven]

The arena is 25 years old and looks like it.  Seats are torn, pieces are broken off, paint is chipping, the decor is outdated.  None of this adds up to a billion-dollar project--and the arena is used for a LOT more than the football stadium.  (I've been there for conferences, banquets, and weddings, for example, where someone paid real dollars to rent the club room and catering...this doesn't happen in Orchard Park.) Before COVID, there were several News articles about how it has become nearly dilapidated.  It should be updated.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Eleven

[Flashsabre]

The least they can do is fix the seats and slap some paint on the KBC.

Any bigger Reno there will probably wait until they know the final tab on the football stadium.

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, Flashsabre said:

The least they can do is fix the seats and slap some paint on the KBC.

Any bigger Reno there will probably wait until they know the final tab on the football stadium.

They need to add a couple of elevators, too, IMO.  The single elevator bank (two elevators) isn't enough to handle the volume of people who require it.  (I forgot to put this in my other post.)

[Zamboni]

14 minutes ago, Eleven said:

They need to add a couple of elevators, too, IMO.  The single elevator bank (two elevators) isn't enough to handle the volume of people who require it.  (I forgot to put this in my other post.)

Amen to this! I have felt that way since going to the first game at the arena in 97. Very shortsighted  planning when it comes to elevators. And the single escalator on both sides. It should’ve been double escalators. Very poor planning in my opinion. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Amen to this! I have felt that way since going to the first game at the arena in 97. Very shortsighted  planning when it comes to elevators. And the single escalator on both sides. It should’ve been double escalators. Very poor planning in my opinion. 

Hmm, under Larry Quinn's leadership, finishing the job as cheaply as possible took precedence over usability, aesthetics, and regulatory compliance?  Noooooooo. Ya don' say.  😉

 

[LabattBlue]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Hmm, under Larry Quinn's leadership, finishing the job as cheaply as possible took precedence over usability, aesthetics, and regulatory compliance?  Noooooooo. Ya don' say.  😉

 

Good ole’ Quinny. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Don't expect anything until the football stadium is at least started.

[Contempt]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

And they still let 10s of thousands sit up there. Posturing, I'd say.

They let people drive over structurally deficient bridges every day too. It doesn't mean they don't need to be fixed or rebuilt in the near future.  

The reinforcing steel they slapped onto the underside of the upper deck wasn't done for fun.  It's a 50 year old concrete structure in a winter climate that has been repeatedly exposed to a lot of salt. The concrete hasn't stopped degrading in the time since they put the reinforcing steel on, it has only gotten worse.  Is it still safe today? Yes, hence people still sit in it, but in another 5-7 years it would be time for more extensive reconstruction beyond what could be achieved with band-aids. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.  To reference bridges again, if you had a 50+ year old concrete bridge in a northern climate nobody would be surprised if it needed to be replaced.  Point to another elevated concrete structure of that age, in that area, that hasn't had to be significantly redone or fully replaced.

To weigh in on KBC renovations.  It has been a couple years since I have been there, but when I was there it was already getting tatty compared to other arenas I've been to and there are design elements that were poorly done to start with including access to the upper deck.  Again, for reference, the KBC opened in 1996.  It has been in use for 26 years.  Memorial Auditorium served the Sabres for 26 years.  Wells Fargo Center in Philly is about the same age.  Go there and then go to KBC and tell me they are comparable.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

And they still let 10s of thousands sit up there. Posturing, I'd say.

 

6 minutes ago, Contempt said:

They let people drive over structurally deficient bridges every day too. It doesn't mean they don't need to be fixed or rebuilt in the near future.  

The reinforcing steel they slapped onto the underside of the upper deck wasn't done for fun.  It's a 50 year old concrete structure in a winter climate that has been repeatedly exposed to a lot of salt. The concrete hasn't stopped degrading in the time since they put the reinforcing steel on, it has only gotten worse.  Is it still safe today? Yes, hence people still sit in it, but in another 5-7 years it would be time for more extensive reconstruction beyond what could be achieved with band-aids. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.  To reference bridges again, if you had a 50+ year old concrete bridge in a northern climate nobody would be surprised if it needed to be replaced.  Point to another elevated concrete structure of that age, in that area, that hasn't had to be significantly redone or fully replaced.

I too am pretty skeptical about structural issues at the Ralph being a driver of the decision to build a new stadium.  The new stadium is all about extracting more revenue from Bills fans.

While I don't doubt that the upper deck needed (or will need in the near to medium term) repairs/reinforcements, I would also guess that those could've been accomplished for less than 10% of the cost of the new stadium.

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

 

I too am pretty skeptical about structural issues at the Ralph being a driver of the decision to build a new stadium.  The new stadium is all about extracting more revenue from Bills fans.

While I don't doubt that the upper deck needed (or will need in the near to medium term) repairs/reinforcements, I would also guess that those could've been accomplished for less than 10% of the cost of the new stadium.

Things don't last forever.  Like the ship in the other thread, which was replaced and which may now be beyond repair.

There's also a stadium thread somewhere, I think.

The arena doesn't need to be replaced yet.

[Contempt]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

While I don't doubt that the upper deck needed (or will need in the near to medium term) repairs/reinforcements, I would also guess that those could've been accomplished for less than 10% of the cost of the new stadium.

And where would the team play in the year or two it would take to tear off the current upper deck and replace it? I also SERIOUSLY doubt that you could accomplish that work for 140 million dollars.

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

The arena doesn't need to be replaced yet.

I agree, but it is well within the time frame where a reno is in order.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, nfreeman said:

 

I too am pretty skeptical about structural issues at the Ralph being a driver of the decision to build a new stadium.  The new stadium is all about extracting more revenue from Bills fans.

While I don't doubt that the upper deck needed (or will need in the near to medium term) repairs/reinforcements, I would also guess that those could've been accomplished for less than 10% of the cost of the new stadium.

If that's all you want to do, sure. But not for 10% of the cost. 30-40% more likely. And then what do you have? Same old stadium that you just sunk half a bil into.

Take a look at what they did in Cleveland: https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/releases/rmfh-closure-190510#:~:text=Cleveland%2C OH -- Rocket Mortgage,sports and entertainment showplace for

If you really want to perk up KBC, you need to expand the footprint and blow out the walls.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

A much longer video look at Cleveland. https://www.facebook.com/WKYC.Channel3/videos/2504645839761852/

[nfreeman]

2 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Things don't last forever.  Like the ship in the other thread, which was replaced and which may now be beyond repair.

There's also a stadium thread somewhere, I think.

The arena doesn't need to be replaced yet.

You're right, of course, that nothing lasts forever.  But that doesn't mean that structural deterioration is the driver behind the new stadium. 

BTW, the Sullivans was put into service in 1943, i.e. 30 years before the Ralph.  And the Aud opened in 1940 and closed in 1996.  The Montreal Forum opened in 1924 and closed in 1996.  The Alouettes' stadium opened in 1914 and is still in use.  Camp Nou, where FC Barcelona plays, opened in 1957. 

 

1 minute ago, Contempt said:

And where would the team play in the year or two it would take to tear off the current upper deck and replace it? I also SERIOUSLY doubt that you could accomplish that work for 140 million dollars.

Could the upper deck not simply be reinforced without tearing it down and rebuilding it?

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

If that's all you want to do, sure. But not for 10% of the cost.30-40% more likely. A nd then what do you have? Same old stadium that you just sunk half a bil into.

Take a look at what they did in Cleveland: https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/releases/rmfh-closure-190510#:~:text=Cleveland%2C OH -- Rocket Mortgage,sports and entertainment showplace for

If you really want to perk up KBC, you need to expand the footprint and blow out the walls.

 

What is this based on?

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

What is this based on?

Same source as yours I assume.

As for reinforcing the upper deck. What do you think they did the last couple of renovations?

[nfreeman]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Same source as yours I assume.

As for reinforcing the upper deck. What do you think they did the last couple of renovations?

The bolded is fair.

As for the last couple of renovations, I thought these were mostly about seating/amenities, and not structural improvements -- i.e. they installed bathrooms at the top of the upper deck, added club seats and boxes, etc.

FWIW, wikipedia says this about the most recent reno:

Quote

On December 21, 2012, the lease negotiations between the Bills, Erie County, and the state of New York ended with the Bills signing a ten-year lease to stay in Buffalo until 2023.[36] The agreement included $130 million in improvements to New Era Field. Renovations included new larger entrance gates, larger HD sponsor boards added to each side of the video scoreboard, two new 33.6 by 59.84 feet (10.24 by 18.24 m) HD video boards, larger LED sponsor board added on the tunnel end of the stadium, expanded concessions, new team store, and redesign of areas and lots just outside the entrance gates. In addition, a life-sized statue of team founder Ralph Wilson was posthumously added to a new area outside the team store called "Founder's Plaza" in 2015.[37]