Is Tage Thompson better than Jack Eichel?

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Do you think Eichel is generational? Or will become that in his career?

No, & no.  But neither is MacKinnon or Matthews.  All 3 are better players than Thompson.

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Do you think Eichel is generational? Or will become that in his career?

Assuming he returns to health I consider him to be an elite player but not generational. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Everything (skating, strength of shot, driving the play, passing etc.) except his shooting accuracy compared to Tage. When healthy Jack is an elite NHL player. At his best Tage is a good NHL player.

I don't agree. I think some of these are toss ups. Skating is different but on par. Play driving is very debatable to me because Eichel only drives play when he feels like it. I think Tage is more consistent. Passing, I guess I'd give it to jack. Defensive play, toss up but again I find Tage more consistent. 

I think Eichel has a level above what Tage has shown but I'm concerned with Eichel being consistently at that show level. 

Is Jack better, yes but I think the gap is closer.

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

No, & no.  But neither is MacKinnon or Matthews.  All 3 are better players than Thompson.

Are you putting Eichel on the level of Austin Matthews?

[Mr. Allen]

I love Tage.  Really do.  But I worry he might regress a little next year.  

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Allen said:

I love Tage.  Really do.  But I worry he might regress a little next year.  

And this is the other side of the coin. 

Eichel will improve after a summer of training but is Tage already at his ceiling?

[Weave]

28 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm hoping that with an offseason he returns to full health and form. 

 

What?

 

too soon?

[Pimlach]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Allen said:

I love Tage.  Really do.  But I worry he might regress a little next year.  

He might, he might score 24-28 next year for any number of reasons - one being they are keying on him more, another could be an injury. 

Then he might get better the next few years after that.   Hard to say, but when I look at career stats of great goal scorers and that is what I  see. 

[rickshaw]

Tage isn’t a better player but he is what the Sabres need. Guys on the Sabres don’t get to demand the ice time Jack got. Tage is a team player. Going forward I doubt he outscores Jack but his attitude and team first mentality make him a better player for the Sabres.

Points aren’t the only measure here. The team is happy and there seem to be no cliques. So while it may suck losing Sam, or Jack for some, for me it was what needed to be done. GMKA is 100 % right when saying he wants players who want to be there. Clearly, this team has players who want to be there. And I’ll say this, I love Alex Tuch! Another 89 who is my fave Sabre! 

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

He might, he might score 24-28 next year for any number of reasons - one being they are keying on him more, another could be an injury. 

Then he might get better the next few years after that.   Hard to say, but when I look at career stats of great goal scorers and that is what I  see. 

You might be right, but it won’t be because they are keying on him more. They’ve been keying on him for a while now and it hasn’t slowed him down.

To me, that is what is most impressive about Tage’s season, his consistency; he’s been running at roughly a point per game basically for 4 months now. He has gone longer than 1 game without a point just once - a 3-game stretch in early March - since the calendar turned.

He has points in 15 of his past 19 games seeing the top players of the other teams, 31 of his past 42. He has 24 goals and 43 points over that span.

Personally, I think he’s for real. What we are seeing is a similar breakthrough to what we saw with Sam Reinhart on the back half of his 4th year.

Edited April 18, 2022 by dudacek

[NAF]

I think a better question is "who would you rather have on the Sabres?"

I think it's a bit silly to think Tage is or ever will be as good as Eichel. However, I think there is a case to be made, considering contract demand (as in % of the salary cap eaten up) and the potential off ice issues Jack might have, that I'd rather have Tage. I think I need to see one more season of consistent production from Tage before I make my final decision.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Do you think Eichel is generational? Or will become that in his career?

Generational?   Not sure there are many in that category.  Orr, Gretzky,  Lemiuex,  Crosby, Ovie ?  

McDavid is the closest to that title.   Mathews, Draisitl, and Mckinnon are certainly way ahead of Eichel.   

Gaudreau and Marner, are career PPG players, Eichel is not. 

There are many players putting up better numbers than Eichel.  Aho and Rantanen, both from Eichel's draft class, are putting up the same numbers or better numbers than Eichel.  Sure, Eichel played on poor teams and has had injuries but he is not close to being generational.  After 7 years in the league I don't see him improving to that super elite level. 

Take his current 7 year pace over 15 years and he is not even at a Hall of Fame level.   He would have to stay healthy, score a bunch more points, consistently get votes for major trophies, win All Star recognition, and play for Cups to gain Hall of Fame consideration.   

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Pimlach

[SABRES 0311]

Individual talent goes to Eichel. Applying talent to team situations goes to Thompson.

Thompson works harder IMO. He makes the most of given opportunities and tries to make them bigger. Eichel is a rover that waits for opportunities to come to him, which he tends to capitalize on.

I have to think a Thompson type of player has more impact in playoff hockey. He’s a go getter while Eichel is a give me type player. 

Skill goes to Eichel but Thompson is more dynamic. He has more use in more diverse situations.

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, MBD said:

Better natural talent or hockey player, which encompasses more?

I could go pretty deep into this....

There are a lot of players in many sports who have 'more talent' and at one point are 'projected' to be better players, but it just doesn't work out. A lot of pre-draft hype is based on skating speed, how hard your shot is, and how well you can dominate teenage competition that will never get to the NHL level.  The Scouts are good at digging deeper than just that, but they aren't always right.  We have to get the word "generational" out of our minds when we discuss Eichel, and just look at the production he gives in the NHL and not a projection of what was fed to us when he was a teenager himself.

Could Jack have a career path that is 'good' to 'very good' without ever maintaining superstar status?  Is it possible he ends up being a 'top 30' forward in the nhl (meaning 25-35) instead of a top 5 guy ever?  Lets give it another year in Vegas where he had more time 'to heal', but that is a possibility.  And if that IS a possibility, is it also possible that Tage can achieve that same level? I think it is.  So to respond to the topic...it is NOT outrageous to ask the question because the answer might be different than what a lot of people believe now.

 Many 'think' Eiche is more talented than Tage because we were told he was 7 years ago, and because we think he is a faster skater (we can see that with our own eyes). But maybe hockey talent favors Tage's reach, his size, his shot accuracy.....maybe Tage's 'hockey sense' and 'vision' have developed over the last few years better than Jacks.  Maybe those things that actually are ways to measure 'talent' have swung in Tage's favor.

If, IF, Tage is 'more talented' than Eichel in his shot accuracy, release, height/reach, ability to read a play and know when too shoot....are we just to default to saying Eichel is more talented because his shot is almost as good AND he skates faster and we were told he was more talented years ago?

  Is it possible Jack could have come out of the draft viewed as 'almost generational', had his 'career' year a few years into his career (still only being about 10th in scoring that year), and for the rest of his career be a very good/star player without even coming close to his pre-draft hype?   Maybe. Maybe not. It is a possibility.  Despite all his talent, Jack may be a 30-35 goal-per-year guy who tops out at about 40 in his best years.

-Is it possible that Tage at center develops into a player that is more productive than that?  Its possible and the question is fair to ask (but must be backed up with more than 1 great season to ensure this just isn't his 'career' year)

Other examples where this happened and people were SURE the player in question was greater than they ended up being:

-Sammy Watkins.  When drafted was the obvious best/most talented WR in that draft by a lot, and through the first couple years of his career he held that opinion by many. However, as the years went by, it was clear he wasn't going to live up to the 'hype' of his talent and the quick snapshot of his early career success.

-I can think back to Taylor Hall when he was drafted.   Not quite considered 'generational', but for sure considered better than a typical first overall pick with Superstar status attached to him.  He had one MVP year in his career year...beyond that, hasn't lived up to the hype.

-Ryan Nugent Hopkins.  He came from a great draft class, but it wasn't a suprise he went first overall, he was the 'best' talent, far better than the players selected after him....Landeskog, Huberdeau, Zibanejad, Scheifle.  Does that make Hopkins a Bust? No, hes a very good player, just it took a few years for people to realize despite his 'pure talent' and 'pre draft hype', he was just that...good to very good, not a superstar.

There are many, many other examples of course.  We will probably have our answer in the next 12 months.  Can Eichel make the jump to be a consistent top 5 scorer in this league and carry a team on his back into and through the playoffs?  Or is he just what we have seen so far...a guy who you rely on for 30 goals per year...who can top out in the low 40s and maybe, MAYBE in one of his career years crack the top 10 in scoring?

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by mjd1001

[French Collection]

Eichel was drafted higher so the expectations are higher. He is an elite talent who I think tops out at 35 G and 65 A for 100 PTS. Health is a big concern and he may never get back to 100% and therefore would not hit those numbers. He turns 26 this fall and the next 2-3 years are probably the peak years for a forward.

In my opinion, Tage is a better shooter and is bigger and stronger than Eichel. He is not as good of a stick handler or a playmaker so his assist totals will be lower. He is a year younger than Eichel so we may have not seen his ceiling which I think is 45G 40A. If he stays healthy he will have a solid career.

Tage is exceeding expectations while the other guy doesn’t meet his.

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Jack made it known to Adams that he wanted out. I don't believe that it really distressed Adams that much because he wanted to do a major rebuild as soon as he took over. My understanding is that Terry Pegula was hesitant about a clean-slate type of rebuild. Jack making it clear to Adams  that he didn't want to be here simplified things for him as far as moving on. 

I think the timeline is:

• Summer 2019:  Current (at the time) GM JBott hires Krueger as HC
• Summer 2020:  JBott Fired, Kevyn Adams hired; quick retooling to attempt to get the Sabres to the playoffs after narrowly missing them previously, meaning +Hall, +Stall, +Eakin, etc.
• March 2021:  After Jack's injury-hindered season and the utter failure of the retooling, culminating in the 12-game losing streak, Krueger was fired and Granato takes over as interim HC.

My conjecture is that as a Sabres insider and astute Hockey Man, Kevyn came into the GM job understanding the dysfunction in the locker room and knew major changes were needed.

In the Summer of 2020, Jack either assumed or was told there would be an extensive rebuild and demanded a trade.  I believe KA was fine with moving him (and reportedly "listened to offers") but that the Pegulas were not yet ready to move Jack or do a full rebuild.

In an effort to retain Eichel/make him happy, Pegulas directed the retooling, which utterly failed when Jack spent most of the season injured, Hall and Staal were slugs, and Krueger proved his ineptitude as a hockey head coach.  I believe Adams had already laid out his rebuild plan but accepted direction from the Pegulas to do the best patch job he could... with the admonition that a rebuild was really what was necessary.

With Jack's struggles and the firing of Krueger, Adams finally prevailed on the Pegulas to do a total rebuild.  I think the Pegulas trusted KA since was was a faithful, long-time PSE employee, and recognized he was right about the rebuild.  I think he'd already taken steps toward his build though; he knew which older players to keep (Girgs and Okposo) and which ones to ditch (Eich, Reino, Risto), which is why he had given Reino a one-year deal in summer 2020.

I think this whole time Adams knew what he wanted to do, did what the Pegulas directed him to do, but set things up to quickly pivot when the Pegulas finally came around to his way of thinking.  He's made mistakes, particularly at goalie, but otherwise has done an admirable job of transforming the team in a very short time.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Doohickie

[matter2003]

9 hours ago, jad1 said:

No. What would the Sabres look like if Eichel and Thompson were their top 2 centers. 🤔

 

We had Eichel and OReilly and they weren't that good. Eichel might not have been the problem but he was never going to be the solution either.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

I think the timeline is:

• Summer 2019:  Current (at the time) GM JBott hires Krueger as HC
• Summer 2020:  JBott Fired, Kevyn Adams hired; quick retooling to attempt to get the Sabres to the playoffs after narrowly missing them previously, meaning +Hall, +Stall, +Eakin, etc.
• March 2021:  After Jack's injury-hindered season and the utter failure of the retooling, culminating in the 12-game losing streak, Krueger was fired and Granato takes over as interim HC.

My conjecture is that as a Sabres insider and astute Hockey Man, Kevyn came into the GM job understanding the dysfunction in the locker room and knew major changes were needed.

In the Summer of 2020, Jack either assumed or was told there would be an extensive rebuild and demanded a trade.  I believe KA was fine with moving him (and reportedly "listened to offers") but that the Pegulas were not yet ready to move Jack or do a full rebuild.

In an effort to retain Eichel/make him happy, Pegulas directed the retooling, which utterly failed when Jack spent most of the season injured, Hall and Staal were slugs, and Krueger proved his ineptitude as a hockey head coach.  I believe Adams had already laid out his rebuild plan but accepted direction from the Pegulas to do the best patch job he could... with the admonition that a rebuild was really what was necessary.

With Jack's struggles and the firing of Krueger, Adams finally prevailed on the Pegulas to do a total rebuild.  I think the Pegulas trusted KA since was was a faithful, long-time PSE employee, and recognized he was right about the rebuild.  I think he'd already taken steps toward his build though; he knew which older players to keep (Girgs and Okposo) and which ones to ditch (Eich, Reino, Risto), which is why he had given Reino a one-year deal in summer 2020.

I think this whole time Adams knew what he wanted to do, did what the Pegulas directed him to do, but set things up to quickly pivot when the Pegulas finally came around to his way of thinking.  He's made mistakes, particularly at goalie, but otherwise has done an admirable job of transforming the team in a very short time.

Both of us are agreeing that both parties in this divorce wanted a separation from each other. There was no secret on what each's preference was. When KA assumed the GM position, he wanted to enact a major overhaul of the roster that involved jettisoning the former core that included Jack, Reinhart and Risto. Each of these three made it known to the organization that they wanted out. It was not a secret that both Risto and Reinhart were not going to re-sign when their contracts expired. However, as you pointed out the owner was not on board to that dramatic remake of the roster at that time. 

To KA's credit he handled the situation with a great deal of dexterity and diplomacy when dealing with the owner. He bided his time and let the situation disastrously unfold as he expected it to. Once the team plunged into the abyss in Krueger's second year the owner was convinced that the rebuild strategy that the GM was calling for was the right thing to do. And it certainly was an appealing factor for the owner that the payroll was going to be significantly slashed if KA's rebuild plan was implemented. 

During this changing of direction KA spoke on numerous occasions on WGR on what his vision was for this troubled franchise. His model was Carolina when it won the SC. He stated that he wanted to remake the roster so that it didn't center around a star player but rather he wanted to broaden out the talent so as not to become so dependent on any one player. 

In the end what Jack desired is the same thing that KA desired. As I have repeatedly stated the trade of Jack worked out well for him and it helped to accelerate the rebuilding and restructuring of the roster. Overall, I credit KA for doing a good job in systematically accomplishing what he set up to accomplish. And as like you my biggest criticism of him is how he handled the goalie situation. It wasn't so much not signing Ullmark to a new contract as it was not having an adequate fallback position if it a deal couldn't be worked out.  

[Doohickie]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

To KA's credit he handled the situation with a great deal of dexterity and diplomacy when dealing with the owner.

This to me is what sets him apart from other Pegula GMs.  At this point I would almost say any Pegula meddling has been eliminated or at least contained.  Quite an accomplishment.

[JohnC]

8 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

This to me is what sets him apart from other Pegula GMs.  At this point I would almost say any Pegula meddling has been eliminated or at least contained.  Quite an accomplishment.

Another distinction he had in comparison to previous GMs is that right from the start he had a blueprint that was appropriate for our franchise at the particular time. He believed in his rebuild strategy and has adhered to it. There were no deviations from it for a quick fix even when this team was facing turbulence. And it is my opinion that his most consequential move was the hiring of Granato to guide his young ship. He was the right coach for the time, circumstance and for the players he was presiding over. 

[MDFan]

He may not be as skilled but he has more heart, and it’s not even close.  

[calti]

I dont think the difference is that great. Of course Eichel is better. But TT..if he keeps improving???? who knows?

[Digger]

I guess that I can't get past the salary.  With the salaries they both make Tage Thompson is the clear winner for value.  Will we be trying to sign Tage to an early extension this off season?  He has one year left at $1.4M and then is a RFA with arbitration rights.  Is it better to sign him this off season or wait and to see if he can repeat again next year?

What's he worth to sign this off season for a 5 year extension?

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Another distinction he had in comparison to previous GMs is that right from the start he had a blueprint that was appropriate for our franchise at the particular time. He believed in his rebuild strategy and has adhered to it. There were no deviations from it for a quick fix even when this team was facing turbulence. And it is my opinion that his most consequential move was the hiring of Granato to guide his young ship. He was the right coach for the time, circumstance and for the players he was presiding over. 

In my personal fantasy brain, the current state of the Sabres is the result of a coup by the Deep State for the good of the team.  Kevyn Adams conspired with Donny Meatballs to overthrow the existing GM-HC hierarchy and seized control right under the nose of the Pegulas.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Another distinction he had in comparison to previous GMs is that right from the start he had a blueprint that was appropriate for our franchise at the particular time. He believed in his rebuild strategy and has adhered to it. There were no deviations from it for a quick fix even when this team was facing turbulence. And it is my opinion that his most consequential move was the hiring of Granato to guide his young ship. He was the right coach for the time, circumstance and for the players he was presiding over. 

I’m going to channel @Thorny again here and point out that this is both a convenient whitewash of Adams first year as GM and misreprentation of Tim Murray, who both had a plan and stuck with it using both barrels. Not sure “deviation” applies to Botterill either, partly because I”m not sure he had a plan to deviate from, and partly because he seemed entirely content to move forward every year through low/risk low reward moves believing success was somehow inevitable.

Edited April 19, 2022 by dudacek

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, Digger said:

I guess that I can't get past the salary.  With the salaries they both make Tage Thompson is the clear winner for value.  Will we be trying to sign Tage to an early extension this off season?  He has one year left at $1.4M and then is a RFA with arbitration rights.  Is it better to sign him this off season or wait and to see if he can repeat again next year?

What's he worth to sign this off season for a 5 year extension?

ideally for me is that Tage would take a 6 x 6 deal  this summer. I think he’d be smarter to wait another year and bet on himself that more would be available the following year. All that would take is a near repeat of this year.