No announcement on Ryan Johnson??

[Doohickie]

14 minutes ago, WildCard said:

The issue with the ROR trade always was we should have gotten a ton more at the time. Thompson wasn't even close to their best prospect and they didn't even want Sobotka or Berglund 

It's like trading Josh Bloom, Anders Bjork, John Hayden and a pick for Cale Makar.

[WildCard]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

It's like trading Josh Bloom, Anders Bjork, John Hayden and a pick for Cale Makar.

Pretty much

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

It's like trading Josh Bloom, Anders Bjork, John Hayden and a pick for Cale Makar.

Because arguably the best “2C” in hockey is the same as arguably the best defenceman?

Because a 95th ranked prospect is the same as a 26th?

Or because a 1st and 2nd rounder is the same as “a pick”?

The ROR trade was for 3 lottery tickets, not 3 raffle tickets for the fruit basket at the church bazaar.

At the time it was more like trading Peca, Wilson and a 1st for Mogilny. It’s unlikely Thompson and Johnson become Peca and McKee, but it was also unlikely Peca and McKee became Peca and McKee.

[nfreeman]

11 hours ago, dudacek said:

The bitterness toward the ROR trade is much more fuelled by the relative fortunes of the franchise in its immediate wake than an actual weighing of the trade.

It was always a futures deal and the futures are just starting to play out.

It’s like people here still think we ripped off Nashville in the Paul Gaustad trade.

You know, the one where we flipped a good bottom six forward, along with the pick they used to take Jusse Saros, along with a 2nd rounder Calgary used to take Patrick Sieloff in order to grab Zemgus Girgensons.

You know, a good bottom six forward?

Genius!

If Thompson reels off another 4 or 5 years of 25 goal seasons for a good Sabres team, the Sabres made out fine in the trade, no matter Colin Miller or Ryan Johnson, or ROR’s Conn Smythe. There was no universe where he was winning a Conn Smythe here on Jason Botterill’s team.

If Tage goes back to being an 8 goal man who’s out of hockey in a few years, they didn’t.

I agree with most of this but I think the bolded is a bit off.

I think JB absolutely thought Berglund would be a major contributor, both on the ice and in the locker room.  He may or may not have also thought Sobotka would be a solid 3rd-liner as well.

JB not bothering to determine whether Berglund, who became tradable only due to his agent butchering the administration of his NTC, would rather jump off a bridge than play for the Sabres was grossly incompetent, and one of, unfortunately, many such terrible moves by JB. 

[dudacek]

Just now, nfreeman said:

I agree with most of this but I think the bolded is a bit off.

I think JB absolutely thought Berglund would be a major contributor, both on the ice and in the locker room.  He may or may not have also thought Sobotka would be a solid 3rd-liner as well.

JB not bothering to determine whether Berglund, who became tradable only due to his agent butchering the administration of his NTC, would rather jump off a bridge than play for the Sabres was grossly incompetent, and one of, unfortunately, many such terrible moves by JB. 

That’s an interesting open question for sure. I know I would tell myself that to justify the trade at the time.

But you can’t forget that the Blues had to shovel $7 million into a reworked trade at the the last minute in order to make the cap work. The original deal fell apart and they had gone out and signed Bozak instead to fill their centre hole.

 

[SDS]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

That’s an interesting open question for sure. I know I would tell myself that to justify the trade at the time.

But you can’t forget that the Blues had to shovel $7 million into a reworked trade at the the last minute in order to make the cap work. The original deal fell apart and they had gone out and signed Bozak instead to fill their centre hole.

Also, I don’t remember if it was reported who JB specifically wanted, but the message to the fans was that Tage had an elite shot and he was brought in to be a winger for Jack. I think history has proved JB was right on Tage.

[WildCard]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Because arguably the best “2C” in hockey is the same as arguably the best defenceman?

Because a 95th ranked prospect is the same as a 26th?

Or because a 1st and 2nd rounder is the same as “a pick”?

The ROR trade was for 3 lottery tickets, not 3 raffle tickets for the fruit basket at the church bazaar.

At the time it was more like trading Peca, Wilson and a 1st for Mogilny. It’s unlikely Thompson and Johnson become Peca and McKee, but it was also unlikely Peca and McKee became Peca and McKee.

3 lottery tickets? Johnson (pick) and Tage, who else? Tage wasn't close to their best prospect and we gave them a bonafide center. The stole that deal and won a Cup with it

[Archie Lee]

12 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I agree with most of this but I think the bolded is a bit off.

I think JB absolutely thought Berglund would be a major contributor, both on the ice and in the locker room.  He may or may not have also thought Sobotka would be a solid 3rd-liner as well.

JB not bothering to determine whether Berglund, who became tradable only due to his agent butchering the administration of his NTC, would rather jump off a bridge than play for the Sabres was grossly incompetent, and one of, unfortunately, many such terrible moves by JB. 

I have no inside information to support this, but it was always my assumption that Housley played a role in the decisions to accept/target Berglund and Sobotka as parts of the deal.  Setting aside any need the Sabres felt to get rid of O'Reilly, they were essentially attempting to do two things with the trade:  1.) Improve their depth (O'Reilly would be replaced by Mittelstadt, Berglund and Sobotka).  2.) Add to their prospect pool/depth (Thompson, the picks).  

Housley was an assistant in Nashville for 4 years prior to joining the Sabres and would have seen lots of Berglund and Sobotka, including in a 6 game playoff series in 2017. I imagine that JB ran Sobotka/Berglund by Housley and that Housley thought they would be good middle-six additions.

While St. Louis clearly thought Berglund / Sobotka were cap dumps, I think they were players that the Sabres were happy to add.  We were trying to have our cake and eat it too (replace O'Reilly's minutes and production with better depth while also adding to the prospect pool).

None of this makes the trade any better, but I think there was (flawed) logic behind the acquisitions obtained in return.

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, WildCard said:

3 lottery tickets? Johnson (pick) and Tage, who else? Tage wasn't close to their best prospect and we gave them a bonafide center. The stole that deal and won a Cup with it

Tage a 1st and a 2nd.

And the bold is a myth. They had  an excellent pool. Their best prospect was Robert Thomas, who was probably ranked similarly to Krebs and they refused to trade him. They had 4 other highly-ranked guys generally considered on the next tier. We picked Tage over Jordan Kyrou, Domink Bokk and Klim Kostin.

 

[WildCard]

12 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Tage a 1st and a 2nd.

And the bold is a myth. They had  an excellent pool. Their best prospect was Robert Thomas, who was probably ranked similarly to Krebs and they refused to trade him. They had 4 other highly-ranked guys generally considered on the next tier. We picked Tage over Jordan Kyrou, Domink Bokk and Klim Kostin.

 

A low 1st and low 2nd aren't equal lottery picks. If Thomas wasn't available, find another team. They were hell bent on trading him and got a terrible return.

[Eleven]

10 hours ago, Doohickie said:

It was trading the current (that didn't want to be here anyway and wasn't going to be a Conn Smyther winner here) for a future that no one expected would be as good as he is this year plus a bunch of junk that was, as you pointed out, basically nothing.  ROR wasn't going to turn the Sabres around, it was just too fupped duck at that point.  But Tage is a big piece of the turnaround now.

I won't say Buffalo won the trade, but at this point in time I'm glad Tage is here.

I still think that if the Sabres had told him that he would be the captain the following season, as they should have, he would have wanted to be here.

And I, too, am glad Tage is here.

[dudacek]

26 minutes ago, WildCard said:

A low 1st and low 2nd aren't equal lottery picks. If Thomas wasn't available, find another team. They were hell bent on trading him and got a terrible return.

Sorry i didn't mean NHL lottery picks.

I meant three shots at adding a good player. Generally speaking, that means a pick in the 1st 2 rounds, or a prospect who was picked, or should have been picked in that range. And obviously that's a sliding scale. Tage, as a prospect, was way higher on that scale than Josh Bloom

In my view, ROR's market value should have been the equivalent of 2  mid-firsts and 2 high seconds — you know, the price we paid to get him. They got the equivalent of 2 late 1sts and a 2nd. They were hell-bent on trading him and got a bad return.

I just don't think it's the all-time bad trade it's made out to be.

It's no Hasek for a pouting Kozlov and the last pick in the 1st.

In terms of assets, we got more for ROR than we got for Reinhart. It's just that people quickly convinced themselves Tage sucked and Levi is a god. We'll see.

Edited April 21, 2022 by dudacek

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

In terms of assets, we got more for ROR than we got for Reinhart.

As it should be.

 

Anyway, back to Johnson; are there any rumblings that he is unhappy with Buffalo and will enter free agency a year from August?

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Eleven said:

As it should be.

 

Anyway, back to Johnson; are there any rumblings that he is unhappy with Buffalo and will enter free agency a year from August?

Only from people with no information other than the fact he hasn't signed yet.

Most recent quotes from late January:

The Sabres development staff has also maintained solid communication with one of their top prospects in the system. He says the development coaches frequently check in and always contact him before they come to see him play.

"Whether it's Tim [Kennedy], Nate [Paetsch], or even GM Kevyn Adams, they've all put a lot of effort into me," he said. "It's really cool to see and makes me very confident in the future."

Johnson feels confident that he will be able to take the next step in his career sooner rather than later. He's paid attention to the Sabres throughout the season and is thrilled to be a part of what is being built for the future. 

"I really do see lots of positives within the organization right now," he said. "They have continued to draft skilled players and develop them. It's just a matter of time before things really start to click in Buffalo." 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/buffalo-sabres-prospects-update-ryan-johnson-university-of-minnesota-gophers/c-330249152

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, Doohickie said:

It's like trading Josh Bloom, Anders Bjork, John Hayden and a pick for Cale Makar.

Not quite but your on the right track.  
 

They rated Tage their 3rd best prospect after Kyrou and Thomas.  Thomas was the most NHL ready at the time and that is who JBot allegedly wanted.  Kyrou was off the table completely.  
 

Is Bloom our 3rd best prospect?   Doubt it.  Also Berglund and Sobie were proven NHL player but past their primes and out of gas.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by Pimlach

[Doohickie]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

I still think that if the Sabres had told him that he would be the captain the following season, as they should have, he would have wanted to be here.

Yes, but it still points to the discord in the room that it was even an issue.  The post tank build was extremely flawed.  All our GMs and coaches were numb to the people/character aspect of building a team.  The ZFG attitude of XGMTM was a direct cause of the toxicity in the room.

I think anyone that is named captain with the current team will enjoy the full support of the room including other rivals for the C (thinking of Okposo versus Tuch).

Edited April 21, 2022 by Doohickie

[Curt]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I agree with most of this but I think the bolded is a bit off.

I think JB absolutely thought Berglund would be a major contributor, both on the ice and in the locker room.  He may or may not have also thought Sobotka would be a solid 3rd-liner as well.

JB not bothering to determine whether Berglund, who became tradable only due to his agent butchering the administration of his NTC, would rather jump off a bridge than play for the Sabres was grossly incompetent, and one of, unfortunately, many such terrible moves by JB. 

I agree with this.  Berglund and Sobotka were not pure cap dump pieces of that trade.  Botterill, and later Krueger, actually thought these were guys who would fill roles, and not just as 13th forwards, for a few years.

The O’Reilly trade was bad because the Sabres should have been able to get more for him.  If Thompson and Johnson turn out well then that is great, but the trade was still a mistake.

[kas23]

47 minutes ago, Curt said:

I agree with this.  Berglund and Sobotka were not pure cap dump pieces of that trade.  Botterill, and later Krueger, actually thought these were guys who would fill roles, and not just as 13th forwards, for a few years.

The O’Reilly trade was bad because the Sabres should have been able to get more for him.  If Thompson and Johnson turn out well then that is great, but the trade was still a mistake.

Are you judging it a mistake because ROR would go on to win a SC and the Conn Smythe? That just too hindsighty for me. His success on the Blues had nothing to do with the Sabres at that point. Context matters and he was sent to a place that would accommodate him and put him in a place to succeed. That wasn’t going to happen on the Sabres. And since that SC winning season, it hasn’t happened again on the Blues. 

[nfreeman]

59 minutes ago, Curt said:

I agree with this.  Berglund and Sobotka were not pure cap dump pieces of that trade.  Botterill, and later Krueger, actually thought these were guys who would fill roles, and not just as 13th forwards, for a few years.

The O’Reilly trade was bad because the Sabres should have been able to get more for him.  If Thompson and Johnson turn out well then that is great, but the trade was still a mistake.

 

8 minutes ago, kas23 said:

Are you judging it a mistake because ROR would go on to win a SC and the Conn Smythe? That just too hindsighty for me. His success on the Blues had nothing to do with the Sabres at that point. Context matters and he was sent to a place that would accommodate him and put him in a place to succeed. That wasn’t going to happen on the Sabres. And since that SC winning season, it hasn’t happened again on the Blues. 

We'll never know, but the real problem with the ROR trade may have been that it was simply unnecessary.

The trade occurred in the summer of 2018, which was the summer after JB's 1st year as GM and Howie's 1st year as coach.  That year was a disaster, as the team, which was not tanking, nevertheless finished DFL.

My guess is that JB, like his successor KA, determined that the team's culture was rotten and the solution was to remove ROR.  Having made that decision, JB made the best deal he could for ROR, likely subject to the crippling condition imposed by TP that the acquiror needed to pay ROR's $7.5MM bonus, because TP wasn't going to do so.

But maybe removing ROR -- who was a very good 200-foot player, a legit #1C or #2C and accordingly a precious NHL commodity -- wasn't needed.  Maybe the right combination of coaching and other personnel moves could've fixed the room. 

The same summer ROR was traded, Barry Trotz, who had just won a Cup with the Caps, became available and was immediately snapped up by the Isles, who immediately improved from Sabres-level joke franchise to solid playoff team.  Meanwhile, it became clear the following year, Howie's 2nd and last year as HC, that he was in way over his head as a HC.

Also that summer, JB decided to let Lehner, an RFA, leave the Sabres without offering him a contract or getting anything in trade for him.  He signed with the Isles and immediately had a career year, with a .930 SV%.  Meanwhile, JB signed Carter Hutton, who may have been the worst goalie in Sabres history.

Maybe if JB had kept ROR, given up on Howie and brought in Trotz, a better goalie and one or 2 other good-character pieces, the Sabres could've made the same jump the Isles made.

Again, we'll never know.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, kas23 said:

Are you judging it a mistake because ROR would go on to win a SC and the Conn Smythe? That just too hindsighty for me. His success on the Blues had nothing to do with the Sabres at that point. Context matters and he was sent to a place that would accommodate him and put him in a place to succeed. That wasn’t going to happen on the Sabres. And since that SC winning season, it hasn’t happened again on the Blues. 

No.  It’s not an opinion based purely on hindsight.

On the day that the trade was made, most here thought that it was bad.  After just a few games of watching Berglund and Sobotka play, it looked even worse.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

No.  It’s not an opinion based purely on hindsight.

On the day that the trade was made, most here thought that it was bad.  After just a few games of watching Berglund and Sobotka play, it looked even worse.

That, plus, it's taken 4 years FOUR YEARS for ANY of the pieces that came back for O'Reilly to show any signs of being remotely worth what ROR has been/is.  How many Sabres fans were lost due to not having O'Reilly level of value in the organization the past 3 years?  How many kids now have the Sabres being a joke of a franchise indelibly etched on their psyches?

How much money did the Pegulas lose by saving that $7.5MM?

Even if Thompson improves from where he's at today & Johnson signs & becomes Power's ideal partner, 3 (and now 4) truly lost years can never be gotten back.

[Curt]

29 minutes ago, Taro T said:

That, plus, it's taken 4 years FOUR YEARS for ANY of the pieces that came back for O'Reilly to show any signs of being remotely worth what ROR has been/is.  How many Sabres fans were lost due to not having O'Reilly level of value in the organization the past 3 years?  How many kids now have the Sabres being a joke of a franchise indelibly etched on their psyches?

How much money did the Pegulas lose by saving that $7.5MM?

Even if Thompson improves from where he's at today & Johnson signs & becomes Power's ideal partner, 3 (and now 4) truly lost years can never be gotten back.

Honestly it’s taken 4 years for any of the pieces to, not just provide near O’Reilly’s value, but to provide any positive value at all to the NHL team.

[Digger]

I've enjoyed reading the posts (catching up from last night).  Here's one positive from the O'Reilly trade that we should all be able to agree on.  Having the deadline in place for the trade (O'Reilly's bonus pay out) killed JBot's negotiation strength in getting the return that he wanted.  That was (I believe anyway) the lesson learned for ownership and Adams when they were trading Eichel.  No deadline and we won't make the trade until we feel comfortable with the return. 

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Curt said:

No.  It’s not an opinion based purely on hindsight.

On the day that the trade was made, most here thought that it was bad.  After just a few games of watching Berglund and Sobotka play, it looked even worse.

Remember how poorly the Blues started their first season with ROR?  Lots of Sabres fans blamed him.  Berube was putting in his system, then came a good goalie - a hot Binnington, and they win the Cup. 

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Remember how poorly the Blues started their first season with ROR?  Lots of Sabres fans blamed him.  Berube Yeo was putting in his system, then came a good goalie coach - Berube and a hot goalie Binnington, and they win the Cup. 

FTFY.  😉