Huckleberry Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 Didn't the wild and and devils sell 20% already to the same PE firm ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 19 hours ago, Thorny said: It's probably another top-shelf analytics guru being added that's well respected in the community. My Leonard Nimoy belt buckle just moved. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 3 hours ago, Weave said: I'm not suggesting day-to-day operation of the franchise. I'm talking about influencing business decisions. 100's of millions of dollars are rarely given up without some level of influence on the outcome. Granted, a major professional sports team may be the one singular exception based on historical team values, but I wouldn't expect an organization who's business plan is based solely on return on investment to take a passive stance. Investment firms often invest millions of $$$ into businesses without expecting to get involved in any aspect of the operation. Their focus in on return on investment, including appreciation of the business. What is appealing to large scale investors in the business of sports is legalized betting in sports. There is an expectation of generating greater revenues from sports gambling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, JohnC said: Investment firms often invest millions of $$$ into businesses without expecting to get involved in any aspect of the operation. Their focus in on return on investment, including appreciation of the business. What is appealing to large scale investors in the business of sports is legalized betting in sports. There is an expectation of generating greater revenues from sports gambling. Yup. Buy 250 mil worth of Sabres, in 10 years sell it to another firm for what? 600mil, 800mil, more? Edited January 16, 2022 by LGR4GM Buy* not but Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kas23 Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 31 minutes ago, JohnC said: Investment firms often invest millions of $$$ into businesses without expecting to get involved in any aspect of the operation. Their focus in on return on investment, including appreciation of the business. What is appealing to large scale investors in the business of sports is legalized betting in sports. There is an expectation of generating greater revenues from sports gambling. If this is like some private equity firms out there, they invest in companies just to bleed them dry. Money now is worth much more than money gained in a sale at some nebulous date in the future. They’ll leverage them up to pad their wallets then dump them out. This is basically what happened to Toys R Us, Fantasy Island, Albertsons, and many more. Of course, maybe not all of them are evil, but they won’t be investing in the Sabres to have a seat at the hockey decision table. They won’t care. I agree with the gambling side. That revenue may be the only reason for their investment, not capital gains on a future sale. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, kas23 said: If this is like some private equity firms out there, they invest in companies just to bleed them dry. Money now is worth much more than money gained in a sale at some nebulous date in the future. They’ll leverage them up to pad their wallets then dump them out. This is basically what happened to Toys R Us, Fantasy Island, Albertsons, and many more. Of course, maybe not all of them are evil, but they won’t be investing in the Sabres to have a seat at the hockey decision table. They won’t care. I agree with the gambling side. That revenue may be the only reason for their investment, not capital gains on a future sale. Investing in a sports franchise is different in a large corporation in the business world. In the sports industry there usually stock shares and board of directors. The sports industry is qualitatively different from the economic world and dynamics of the business world in general. It's a different entity altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Yup. But 250 mil worth of Sabres, in 10 years sell it to another firm for what? 600mil, 800mil, more? That's a good reason why the Peguals will be reluctant to sell off any of their business. On the other hand I can see them selling off a slice of their franchise to finance an upgrade in the arena. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, JohnC said: That's a good reason why the Peguals will be reluctant to sell off any of their business. On the other hand I can see them selling off a slice of their franchise to finance an upgrade in the arena. Right, they can make 250mil and finance fixing the arena while also keeping their investment. It's a win win for them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calti Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 On 1/15/2022 at 10:09 AM, Porous Five Hole said: You guys…Terry is worth five billion dollars. This isn’t about cashing out 150 million via 20% sale. Also, throwing their commitment to the Sabres and the region out the window when asking for $700 million for a football stadium from the county and the state would be crazy. The Bills more than cover any Sabres losses. good point re the money. 200 million is pocket change for Pegula .that is not the motive/issue at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, calti said: good point re the money. 200 million is pocket change for Pegula .that is not the motive/issue at all Sure it is, if you need to get 200 mil in cash. It's pocket change but most of the billionaires we know don't have a billion dollars, they have billions in assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porous Five Hole Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 55 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Sure it is, if you need to get 200 mil in cash. It's pocket change but most of the billionaires we know don't have a billion dollars, they have billions in assets. While I’m not here to argue that point, the Pegulas have plenty of assets to collateralize, including the Sabres/Bills in the form of debt (especially if the funds are to be used for said franchise/football stadium, etc). And the stadium (or arena, I suppose) is the only thing that they could possibly need that kind of money. Even their mega-yacht only cost $75M. You think they want to cash out to buy another one? The potential fallout from selling a portion of the hockey team doesn’t make a ton of sense. Especially if a minority owner gets a voice/voting interest. Just not worth it to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Porous Five Hole said: While I’m not here to argue that point, the Pegulas have plenty of assets to collateralize, including the Sabres/Bills in the form of debt (especially if the funds are to be used for said franchise/football stadium, etc). And the stadium (or arena, I suppose) is the only thing that they could possibly need that kind of money. Even their mega-yacht only cost $75M. You think they want to cash out to buy another one? The potential fallout from selling a portion of the hockey team doesn’t make a ton of sense. Especially if a minority owner gets a voice/voting interest. Just not worth it to them. Why would a investment firm want much of a voice? Fallout? No one is going to games, might as well pull that trigger now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porous Five Hole Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 34 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Why would a investment firm want much of a voice? Fallout? No one is going to games, might as well pull that trigger now I just think it’s the wrong message to send when you’re asking for several hundred million dollars from surrounding municipalities for a football stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Porous Five Hole said: I just think it’s the wrong message to send when you’re asking for several hundred million dollars from surrounding municipalities for a football stadium. Which is why it won’t be announced before a stadium deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calti Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 I could help out terry with about 10k..If that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porous Five Hole Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 3 hours ago, dudacek said: Which is why it won’t be announced before a stadium deal You are incredibly well respected by myself and all other posters here…could you please explain the “why” behind this concept? I realize we are all speculating, but help me understand the motivation of selling a stake in the franchise. Cuz some cash for funsies isn’t making sense to me. My opinion: Terry loves the Sabres and is not looking for an easy money equity cash out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerreaultForever Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 9 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Sure it is, if you need to get 200 mil in cash. It's pocket change but most of the billionaires we know don't have a billion dollars, they have billions in assets. They don't even have that. They have billions against valuations, estimations, futures etc etc etc and in some cases it's a house of cards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Porous Five Hole said: You are incredibly well respected by myself and all other posters here…could you please explain the “why” behind this concept? I realize we are all speculating, but help me understand the motivation of selling a stake in the franchise. Cuz some cash for funsies isn’t making sense to me. My opinion: Terry loves the Sabres and is not looking for an easy money equity cash out. I’ve come to hold this opinion because of the way the business of the team has been managed for the past 2 years, with a clear austerity program in place, gutting of staff and little to no investment into facilities or marketing or long-term player contracts. They’ve taken the steps that a business would take when trying to make itself attractive to investors. I’m no expert on the world of high finance, but I don’t think it is at all difficult to speculate that even someone as rich as Terry could use some cash to help fund an upgrade of the arena, or the new stadium project for the Bills. Hell, I’m sure he could use some to cover the losses of the past 2 seasons, which have to be considerable. I suppose it is also possible that he has tired of the Sabres, or of the flak he has taken as owner of the Sabres, and wants to step away from being the face of ownership. Personally, I agree with you that he loves the Sabres and would be surprised if no longer wants to be owner. Edited January 17, 2022 by dudacek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said: They don't even have that. They have billions against valuations, estimations, futures etc etc etc and in some cases it's a house of cards. A certain someone will be along to put the chairman of the fed to shame with their financial knowledge, but... didn't Terry "cash out" his oil and gas holdings? Didn't he get billions in real dollars? Where did it go? Does he have a gambling problem? 8 hours ago, dudacek said: I’ve come to hold this opinion because of the way the business of the team has been managed for the past 2 years, with a clear austerity program in place, gutting of staff and little to no investment into facilities or marketing or long-term player contracts. They’ve taken the steps that a business would take when trying to make itself attractive to investors. I’m no expert on the world of high finance, but I don’t think it is at all difficult to speculate that even someone as rich as Terry could use some cash to help fund an upgrade of the arena, or the new stadium project for the Bills. Hell, I’m sure he could use some to cover the losses of the past 2 seasons, which have to be considerable. I suppose it is also possible that he has tired of the Sabres, or of the flak he has taken as owner of the Sabres, and wants to step away from being the face of ownership. Personally, I agree with you that he loves the Sabres and would be surprised if no longer wants to be owner. His love of the Sabres is not clear to me. More and more that initial presser is looking like smoke and mirrors. People think I'm a hockey guy, but I'm really a football guy. There just happened to be a hockey team for sale first. No one who truly loves the Sabres would do what he did. A casual fan, one of the posters who show up here for the first time in three years when the Sabres are on a long winning streak — maybe. But you don't go in the operating room as a neurosurgeon is about to do brain surgery on the love of your life and tell him or here where to cut. I call almost total BS on the idea of "love." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, PASabreFan said: A certain someone will be along to put the chairman of the fed to shame with their financial knowledge, but... didn't Terry "cash out" his oil and gas holdings? Didn't he get billions in real dollars? Where did it go? Does he have a gambling problem? His love of the Sabres is not clear to me. More and more that initial presser is looking like smoke and mirrors. People think I'm a hockey guy, but I'm really a football guy. There just happened to be a hockey team for sale first. No one who truly loves the Sabres would do what he did. A casual fan, one of the posters who show up here for the first time in three years when the Sabres are on a long winning streak — maybe. But you don't go in the operating room as a neurosurgeon is about to do brain surgery on the love of your life and tell him or here where to cut. I call almost total BS on the idea of "love." Possible. But it always seemed to me like Terry spends as much of his time “managing” the Sabres as anyone on here does. You don’t do that unless you’ve got more than money invested. Maybe more like one of those posters who comes in with the answers for everything for a few months, then gets bored and disappears, off to the next distraction? Edited January 17, 2022 by dudacek 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/15/2022 at 1:01 PM, bunomatic said: Yeah probably but with whats transpired during this ownership. It is his m.o. I have no idea what you mean. When has Terry pulled the plug on any regime too soon? All I ever read here was Pegula didn't fire people fast enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/15/2022 at 1:05 PM, mjd1001 said: The thing I don't like about the private equity ownership is..they would be ALL about the money. Terry and Kim may not want to sell the Sabres and potentially have them moved, but if Private equity buys into the Sabres (one of the lower value franchises in the league with a low buy-in cost), the best way for them to make a LOT Of money is to do whatever they can to get the team to move to a bigger market with a sweet-heart arena deal. Not saying Terry and Kim would do that..but If I'm private equity, the Sabres are close to my #1 target to do that. Exactly. Sentimentality is not part of Wall Street. It's all about finding undervalued assets, aquiring said asset, maximize value, profit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 8 hours ago, dudacek said: I suppose it is also possible that he has tired of the Sabres, or of the flak he has taken as owner of the Sabres, and wants to step away from being the face of ownership. Riffing off this: what do people think of the idea of a 'managing partner'? I don't mean exactly like Larry Quinn, who was essentially a team president rewarded with an ownership stake, I mean someone who brings in a real pile of new cash in exchange for some control over how the business is run? It would mostly be about business: the new guy gets the automatic return on investment that seems to come from pro sports ownership and an opportunity to run an NHL team. I could see people recognizing the Sabres as a mismanaged business, with an untapped market of alienated fans ready to relive 2006 and spend "if only...". Terry still gets final say on most major decisions and the hoped-for benefits of increased revenue streams and franchise valuation, along with the ability to fade into the background and no longer put up with the bashing he's received for running the Sabres into the ground. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, dudacek said: Riffing off this: what do people think of the idea of a 'managing partner'? I don't mean exactly like Larry Quinn, who was essentially a team president rewarded with an ownership stake, I mean someone who brings in a real pile of new cash in exchange for some control over how the business is run? It would mostly be about business: the new guy gets the automatic return on investment that seems to come from pro sports ownership and an opportunity to run an NHL team. I could see people recognizing the Sabres as a mismanaged business, with an untapped market of alienated fans ready to relive 2006 and spend "if only...". Terry still gets final say on most major decisions and the hoped-for benefits of increased revenue streams and franchise valuation, along with the ability to fade into the background and no longer put up with the bashing he's received for running the Sabres into the ground. Would it be a "hockey guy"? Or gal, I don't care. Dumb question: would it be about an infusion of cash? Or could the Pegulas reach out to someone to "run" the team and reward them with a minority stake in ownership? The rumor for a long time has been that they were looking for someone to help run the team. How do you match up a rich person with that ability? It certainly didn't work with Terry. On that note, if I'm buying into the Sabres with an eye toward running them, I don't do it if Terry still gets final say on major decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porous Five Hole Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 50 minutes ago, dudacek said: Riffing off this: what do people think of the idea of a 'managing partner'? I don't mean exactly like Larry Quinn, who was essentially a team president rewarded with an ownership stake, I mean someone who brings in a real pile of new cash in exchange for some control over how the business is run? It would mostly be about business: the new guy gets the automatic return on investment that seems to come from pro sports ownership and an opportunity to run an NHL team. I could see people recognizing the Sabres as a mismanaged business, with an untapped market of alienated fans ready to relive 2006 and spend "if only...". Terry still gets final say on most major decisions and the hoped-for benefits of increased revenue streams and franchise valuation, along with the ability to fade into the background and no longer put up with the bashing he's received for running the Sabres into the ground. It goes back to my original contention of what happens next. I think they have that guy already in Kevyn. Connected locally and league-wide. Played, coached & managed. I am not the Pegula family banker, but I’ll die on the hill of they don’t need to cash anything out and there won’t be any ownership adjustments. Edited January 17, 2022 by Porous Five Hole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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