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Jack Eichel and 2023 3rd Traded to Vegas for F Alex Tuch, C Peyton Krebs, 2022 1st Top Ten Protected and 2023 2nd

Brawndo

By Brawndo
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dudacek Hall of Famer

dudacek

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14 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I loved Hossa on Chicago so that would be great

To be clear, he's nowhere that good, just plays that similar big, fast power game.

It will be interesting which direction he goes with the Sabre because he's still only 25 with about 250 NHL games played as a middle-sixer.

Will he be one of those guys who falls off with increased responsibility or will he find chemsitry with a Mitts or someone else and find another level in a 1st-line role?

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Thorny Hall of Famer

Thorny

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3 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

As someone who is more into (adjusted) plus-minus than most, you need some context.  The first point is the most important, but the ones after it are salient as well.

1. The +/- for most of the other forwards was even worse than Eichel.  The difference between the Sabres when Eichel was on the ice and when Eichel was off the ice was mind-bogglingly wide.  That points the finger at the GM because it proves much of the rest of the roster sucked.  In particular, there was inadequate defence and goaltending.

2. Until they learn to backcheck effectively, offencive forwards often start their years in the debit column for +/- unless your team has defencively responsible but skilled forwards to put on his line.

3. Over the history of the league (I have statistics going back to 1967-8), talented players on bad teams -- particularly young ones -- are almost always worse than average in adjusted +/- because the team is behind and give up not only empty net goals, but a lot of extra-man rushes because they are pressing to score -- even the most defencively responsible of them.

4. The easiest way to have made Eichel's +/- better was to get some very good veteran defencemen and solid goaltending.  I have stats going back to the 1920's, where teams made big jumps in the standings and offencive players got better results because of improved defence and goaltending.

Think of hockey as having its version of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.  The raw numbers we collect can not tell the whole story because you can't dissociate the player from the team.  Players who go from bad teams to good ones often see a gigantic bump in their statistics no matter how good they are -- and the best see the adjusted +/- soar, sometimes by over 40 goals.  For instance, in 1971-2, Gil Perreault was -39.  In 1972-73, he was +10.  Sure, he improved, but the team around him slashed almost 100 goals against off the previous year's total.  That was not all Gil Perreault.  That was Tim Horton, Don Luce, and numerous other players.

And Eichel was a +5 the year he “arrived”. I absolutely love that the trend he was on is completely ignored 

As if young players aren’t improving at his age, especially on D, as you alluded to 

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FogBat First Liner

FogBat

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On 11/4/2021 at 9:36 AM, Hoss said:

I’m glad this is finally over, just as everyone else seems to be. This is the value you get for a broken Jack Eichel, nothing more, nothing less.

The pick protection is the only real frustrating part and there is a chance (considering Tuch’s injury situation) this is a true zero for Eichel in five years BUT that’s, again, what you’d expect. I feel that’s very unlikely.

I haven’t been big on Krebs before but he has made some beautiful play. There was a cross-ice pass for an assist in the playoffs (I think?) last year that changed my mind on him already.

The most important questions have yet to be asked:

What number will Tuch wear? Mogilny remains the only 89 in team history, his precious numbers are 10 (taken), 12, 17, 37 (taken), 53 (taken).

What number will Krebs wear? He wore 18 in Vegas which is retired. 19 was his Juniors number and is available. He has also worn 17.

Eichel? 9 and 11 are both available in Vegas (but 15 isn’t). So is 69.

There’s a reason why Mogilny wore 89, just like Jagr wore 68. AFAIAC, 89 is off limits.

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mjd1001 Second Liner

mjd1001

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590 out of Toronto is playing an interview with Elliot Friedman about the Sabres in general. The events of the past couple of days. I don't know if it's live or not but it's definitely an additional interview to his first one with Jack. Not sure if anyone can find a link to post but it's kind of interesting.

A lot of it is his opinion not necessarily fact, but he hinted that ownership/Pegula felt a little bit betrayed by Jack with the trade request 2 years ago and they may have impacted the way things went from there.

Also, he said it was important to get a player like Alex Tuch who would come out and openly say how happy he is to be a member of the team.

Said he's impressed by how Kevin Adams handled a difficult situation and impressed by his patience.

He jokingly called Adams a jerk, because he said Adams didn't leak much information to him or to many people around him so it made it hard on reporters. He said that if there were any leaks, he doubts they came from Adams.

Hinted that Jack is very intense and wants things done quickly. Expects a lot of himself and everyone around him including his agent. The reason he made the agent change was strictly to get this moving quickly. That contrasted with Adams who was willing to be his patient as possible with this to get the better deal, which was a point of conflict. The goal of the new agent was to put as much pressure on the sabers as possible.

Edited by mjd1001
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FogBat First Liner

FogBat

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On 11/4/2021 at 10:54 AM, LGR4GM said:

Buffalo Sabres handled this breakup poorly

Eichel handled the breakup poorly

Doesn't mean the Sabres are idiots or that Eichel was the reason for the losing. 

I guess that’s another way of saying that the chemistry wasn’t there.

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mjd1001 Second Liner

mjd1001

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A little more info from Friedman on his interview...

Said Calgary was very interested but it never got close to closing the deal. He doesn't believe there was any truth to Calgary willing to give up Thachuk. Sabres were more interested in Krebs than any other prospect from Calgary, and more interested in Tuch than any other roster player that was available from Calgary. 

Calgary definitely willing to give up a future first round pick possibly a 2nd future first, but didn't have the roster players/prospects Sabres wanted.

Friedman keeps on stressing over and over how big a part of the deal and how much the Sabres really wanted Tuch.. as a very key piece and a leader of the team going forward.

Said the Carolina had interest but they didn't want to give up Jarvis, and there was some concern about how Eichel would fit in with the rest of the team.

Mentioned Anaheim dropped out a while ago, they may not have been comfortable with The surgery issue.

Montreal was never in it, they also had concerns about whether Eichel would fit in with the team, or as Friedman put it whether he was the 'right play' for them.

Edited by mjd1001
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sabrefanday1 Top Prospect

sabrefanday1

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In the end the Sabres and KA clearly stayed the course were patient and got exactly what he was after. We have to live with the fact we will never win this trade unless Jack either does not ever play again or regresses badly and is not the guy we saw in his first few years. He will rack up huge points on Vegas but will always be one hit from suffering a career-ending injury. And the team and the locker room is clearly a better place without him.

   Can Dahlin be far behind? Should we try to move him? I think KA will be a busy guy come trade deadline.

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Hoss Hall of Famer

Hoss

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2 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Close enough. 

No, not really. As far as point production goes: Samson has five seasons of more than 20 goals, Tuch has zero. Samson has six seasons of 40 or more points. Tuch has one. Six seasons over .5 PPG. Tuch has two.

They’re not close. Tuch is a 30-50 point player. Samson is a 50-70 point player.

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mjd1001 Second Liner

mjd1001

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One more thing Friedman just brought up, said Buffalo should be worried about how they handled the injury situation and the fact that they wouldn't let Jack get his surgery of choice.

When the question was asked to press Frieedman on that, he said that a few players have told him they would have second thoughts about playing for Buffalo because of how they treated Jack regarding the injury.

He said behind the scenes the situation between Jack and the sabers was personal and nasty, more than most people know.

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Hoss Hall of Famer

Hoss

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Just now, mjd1001 said:

One more thing Friedman just brought up, said Buffalo should be worried about how they handled the injury situation and the fact that they wouldn't let Jack get his surgery of choice.

When the question was asked to press Frieedman on that, he said that a few players have told him they would have second thoughts about playing for Buffalo because of how they treated Jack regarding the injury.

He said behind the scenes the situation between Jack and the sabers was personal and nasty, more than most people know.

Wow we never could have possibly foreseen the handling of Jack having an impact on players around the league. I certainly never mentioned it multiple times.

 

 

 

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mjd1001 Second Liner

mjd1001

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1 minute ago, Hoss said:

Wow we never could have possibly foreseen the handling of Jack having an impact on players around the league. I certainly never mentioned it multiple times.

 

 

 

I don't disagree with you, but I think the significance is your point could be said it would just be common sense.... But here a guy who talks to NHL players his actually come out and said that players have admitted openly that they are going to have second thoughts.

It's not something that's common sense to believe it's likely, we now know that players have definitely said it for sure.

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Hoss Hall of Famer

Hoss

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1 minute ago, mjd1001 said:

I don't disagree with you, but I think the significance is your point could be said it would just be common sense.... But here a guy who talks to NHL players his actually come out and said that players have admitted openly that they are going to have second thoughts.

It's not something that's common sense to believe it's likely, we now know that players have definitely said it for sure.

I was being sarcastic. I said multiple times this was happening and would continue to happen.

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LGR4GM Hall of Famer

LGR4GM

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6 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

One more thing Friedman just brought up, said Buffalo should be worried about how they handled the injury situation and the fact that they wouldn't let Jack get his surgery of choice.

When the question was asked to press Frieedman on that, he said that a few players have told him they would have second thoughts about playing for Buffalo because of how they treated Jack regarding the injury.

He said behind the scenes the situation between Jack and the sabers was personal and nasty, more than most people know.

Why should I care? Honestly why should I give a ***** what Jack's mouthpiece has to say and oh no we won't be able to sign overpriced ufas, the horror. 

When it becomes a problem, I'll worry. You don't build teams through ufa.

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

I was being sarcastic. I said multiple times this was happening and would continue to happen.

You know why ufas aren't gonna sign? Because we're bad, if we're ever good again, Jack's issues will have been forgotten. Winning fixes a lot... so does money

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mjd1001 Second Liner

mjd1001

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Just now, LGR4GM said:

Sorry if that comes off as flippant but players not wanting to come to Buffalo is way down our list of problems right now. 

I think it's a notable piece of news that players have actually said that... But I also agree with you that it's not an issue right now.

By the time the sabres are looking for free agents, it should be a few years down the road.

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