Jack Eichel and 2023 3rd Traded to Vegas for F Alex Tuch, C Peyton Krebs, 2022 1st Top Ten Protected and 2023 2nd

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, Cheektorado said:

That is becoming a theme for the type of player that GMKA desires.

Really is the Bills' mentality. Find very high-character, hard working players that want to be here.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

Not an asset good enough to justify the retention.  

That's fine, but it's probably worth mentioning that this was the completely scorching take from yours truly that's been taken issue with, multiple times, for 4 pages:

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

His point that the Sabres could have gained more by retaining though isn't a biased viewpoint - it's a common practice from many "good" teams in this league. In the end it bothers me less that they didn't retain, not retaining may very well have been the best option all things considered - what rubs me the wrong way is more that it apparently was a very hard "non starter". I think finding out what COULD have been had from other teams, keeping more teams in the loop, would have made sense. Just allows the accumulation of more info.

My objection was merely to the idea that he would be ruling teams out early in negotiations, as was indeed the implication of the article. I see no harm in continuing to listen, on the off chance you DO get that asset worthy of retention.

If your contention-on-that-retention is that you are absolutely certain there won't be a good enough asset coming back so as to justify even making the time to listen, that's fine.

If your contention is that KA actually was kinda sorta still listening and would have been made aware, somehow, of a REALLY strong offer by way of retention, that makes sense too, but I fail to see how my initial point deserved any more of a reaction beyond "oh, I'm sure he's more less listening anyways." which is more less what @Taro Tsaid. 

Instead, my take, that bolded one up there you see, and the discussion that followed is being used to claim i don't value other viewpoints. 

[Porous Five Hole]

For those who take issue with the “salary retention is a non-starter,” what would you be expecting and for what level of retention?

 

I realize that might be too open ended to answer, but what else would the Knights have given up? Who would be a more logical trade partner and what would the cost have been to get more back in a trade?

I prefer the financial flexibility going forward and am happy the Sabres went this route.  

[nfreeman]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That's fine, but it's probably worth mentioning that this was the completely scorching take from yours truly that's been taken issue with, multiple times, for 4 pages:

My objection was merely to the idea that he would be ruling teams out early in negotiations, as was indeed the implication of the article. I see no harm in continuing to listen, on the off chance you DO get that asset worthy of retention.

If your contention-on-that-retention is that you are absolutely certain there won't be a good enough asset coming back so as to justify even making the time to listen, that's fine.

If your contention is that KA actually was kinda sorta still listening and would have been made aware, somehow, of a REALLY strong offer by way of retention, that makes sense too, but I fail to see how my initial point deserved any more of a reaction beyond "oh, I'm sure he's more less listening anyways." which is more less what @Taro Tsaid. 

Instead, my take, that bolded one up there you see, and the discussion that followed is being used to claim i don't value other viewpoints. 

Well, some people like to argue.

Still, you have, for 4 pages of this thread, pushed hard on the assertion that KA's statement, if taken 100% literally, reflected a questionable judgment.  My point was just that there is no reason to take his statement 100% literally -- or to argue about it -- as in the real world the scenario raised by the 100% literal interpretation almost certainly didn't happen.

There are much bigger fish to fry.

 

[Cheektorado]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

Really is the Bills' mentality. Find very high-character, hard working players that want to be here.

It sure seems to be the plan.  Personally the way the GM/HC are currently handling this messed up organization is the only thing giving me any hope for the future of this team.  The past combinations for last 10 years seemed (at least to me) to be a complete hodgepodge of planning.

[Mustache of God]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

75 per cent on the 4 1sts.

But he also checked off his following goals in the trade: avoiding retention; avoiding cap dumps, avoiding conditional picks, and adding legit top 6 (centre) prospect.

Do we buy this?

Every indication we got was the difference between "more or less" was named Peyton Krebs.

I would have preferred a cap dump included if it meant upping the offer. 

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, Porous Five Hole said:

For those who take issue with the “salary retention is a non-starter,” what would you be expecting and for what level of retention?

 

I realize that might be too open ended to answer, but what else would the Knights have given up? Who would be a more logical trade partner and what would the cost have been to get more back in a trade?

I prefer the financial flexibility going forward and am happy the Sabres went this route.  

Welcome back.

[SabresBillsFan]

13 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Thank you for this perspective.  I think Tuch, Krebs, and a 1st is a solid return for a broken Eichel.

Eichel will be fine. The deal will hopefully work out well for both teams. Either way I’m happy because the deal helps both teams!

[MODO Hockey]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

You don't like the trade? 

Some things is obviously not ment to be regarding this team, but to me this whole thing with Jack is a diaster deluxe. So no, i dont like the trade at all. And that has nothing to do with what Sabres got back, it's about that Sabres just lost the most talanted player they had for a very long time. Speculating is the only thing possible here, and i firmly believe that Jack wanted this to much and Sabres never gave him the oportunity and the tools he needed to succeed as a generational talant. 

If he gets healthy im pretty sure he will bring the cup home to vegas and for his sake i really hope so, i just feel grumpy over this trade, we gonna see yet another season without playoffs and jack will most likely play his first.

[SabresBillsFan]

10 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Really is the Bills' mentality. Find very high-character, hard working players that want to be here.

To me they got two players in that deal with Vegas. 

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, some people like to argue.

Still, you have, for 4 pages of this thread, pushed hard on the assertion that KA's statement, if taken 100% literally, reflected a questionable judgment.  My point was just that there is no reason to take his statement 100% literally -- or to argue about it -- as in the real world the scenario raised by the 100% literal interpretation almost certainly didn't happen.

There are much bigger fish to fry.

 

Fair I guess, but as I said to Taro, I'm not comfortable in the stance if it ruled out hearing from ANY teams, at all. It doesn't require a literal interpretation to think the stance ruled out some. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Thorny

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Fair I guess, but as I said to Taro, I'm not comfortable in the stance if it ruled out hearing from ANY teams, at all. It doesn't require a literal interpretation to think the stance ruled out some. 

To buttress your point, several people I know of said that Colorado was out as soon as they were told, "no retention, no way, no how."

[Thorny]

Just now, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

To buttress your point, several people I know of said that Colorado was out as soon as they were told, "no retention, no way, no how."

Cheers, not least for using the word "buttress" while supporting my argument. 

[LabattBlue]

Can you imagine the epic meltdown in the next few years if Vegas and Florida meet in the Cup Finals? 😂

[K-9]

24 minutes ago, SabresBillsFan said:

Season ticket holder for the Knights and have seen Tuch get better each season and excited to see how Krebs develop. But from what I’ve seen of Krebs he’s going to be a solid nhler. Great vision, and more of a playmaker but he is a hustler!

I’ll take it. Playmaker is always a position of need. 

[NAF]

In my opinion the trade is of fine value considering the circumstances. I really like Tuch and think Krebs will be a solid 50 point guy for a long time. Both of them are also supposedly high character guys. Overall I'll give it a B-.

What I am upset about is what a waste the Eichel era was. Even going back to 2013 before he was even here. If you've seen Steve Dangle's video on the Phil Kessel era you'll know what I'm talking about. Sure there were some great moments -- the 10 game streak, Skinner's 40 goals, a couple of Eichel OT snipes. What I can't get back is eight years of Sabres hockey just wasted.

 

[Marvin]

Just now, NAF said:

In my opinion the trade is of fine value considering the circumstances. I really like Tuch and think Krebs will be a solid 50 point guy for a long time. Both of them are also supposedly high character guys. Overall I'll give it a B-.

What I am upset about is what a waste the Eichel era was. Even going back to 2013 before he was even here. If you've seen Steve Dangle's video on the Phil Kessel era you'll know what I'm talking about. Sure there were some great moments -- the 10 game streak, Skinner's 40 goals, a couple of Eichel OT snipes. What I can't get back is eight years of Sabres hockey just wasted.

 

Same here.  I was always afraid of this when The Tank was announced, was very concerned with the scorched-earth and salted terrain policy of those years, and disliked the "acceleration" of the rebuild.  All of these things plus some questionable personnel, coaching, and management decisions kept the Sabres in the hole we had dug for ourselves.  Result: The Lost Decade.

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, NAF said:

In my opinion the trade is of fine value considering the circumstances. I really like Tuch and think Krebs will be a solid 50 point guy for a long time. Both of them are also supposedly high character guys. Overall I'll give it a B-.

What I am upset about is what a waste the Eichel era was. Even going back to 2013 before he was even here. If you've seen Steve Dangle's video on the Phil Kessel era you'll know what I'm talking about. Sure there were some great moments -- the 10 game streak, Skinner's 40 goals, a couple of Eichel OT snipes. What I can't get back is eight years of Sabres hockey just wasted.

 

That’s why you have to let it go, look forward, and try to find the good things this new group is trying to show us. All while knowing that your patience will be tested to the max at times. 

[Eleven]

10 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Can you imagine the epic meltdown in the next few years if Vegas and Florida meet in the Cup Finals? 😂

Which way will the bicycle go?

[Cheektorado]

13 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Can you imagine the epic meltdown in the next few years if Vegas and Florida meet in the Cup Finals? 😂

It would be something.  Then imagine one or both of them playing poorly.  It would bring the debates all back "on steroids".

I would need another roll of Reynolds Wrap to cover the rest of my body and not just my head!

[Hoss]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

https://theathletic.com/2935057/2021/11/04/jack-eichel-trade-grades-did-the-sabres-return-enough-from-the-golden-knights-for-their-star-center/

Pronman hates anyone who isn't Tuch's size and says "he's not that big" crap. 5'11" 190lbs is pretty solid. 

Every single thing he said about him was a compliment except the part about finishing issues which is accurate.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

I still say there's a significant risk that he will either never play again, or more likely, will never be able to play at the level he was capable of in the past.  I think the most likely scenario is a near-complete return to form, but there are risks out there.  I think one risk is that the ADR is not successful and they need to do the fusion immediately, leading to the longer recovery time so Jack would lose all of this season including playoffs.

We on this forum have been living and breathing the Eichel saga for months now.  I think most of the rest of the league and its fans haven't delved too deeply into what's going on.  In many cases I bet they've only heard the Eichel side of the propaganda so they think this surgery is no big deal.  Whatever.

With Krebs in Rochester they are right at the floor.  When Mitts returns (for instance) and they want to send Murray down, they'll be below the floor without Murray's salary.

Most people think the Sabres were withholding ALL medical treatment out of spite.

[MattPie]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Oh, it would probably be something like the Isles taking a similar contract back at some point in the future when they're a little short of the floor or something.

Didn't we get Butcher for "future considerations" from the Devils?  Checking.... yes, and we got a 5th round pick from NJ as well.  For future considerations that the Sabres will some day give to the Devils. 

I'm guessing there's some rule that says one team can't simply "give" a player to another team, so they trade for "future considerations" and those considerations are either never fulfilled or they come out in the wash.  Like if we didn't want Hayden anymore and NJ could use him, he could fulfill the "future considerations" of the Butcher deal and we'd send him to NJ.

Seems like a conditional 7th (if the Sabres win the Stanley Cup in 2022) would be a good "Future Considerations". 🙂

48 minutes ago, Cheektorado said:

Agree.  I also think that there's the chance that later in the year a guy like Eakin could get replaced for a young guy.  

I think the trade deadline sell-off is probably the most likely spectre. That close to the cap, you might not be able to trade even a JAG for a pick without falling under the floor (or taking something back). Boychuk is insurance from having to do weird cap games. Still like to see the Sabres bring him by and hit him in the knee a few timtes though.

4 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Which way will the bicycle go?

Oh man, I wish I could find it but I just saw a picture of a pair of bikes joined at the back wheel (three wheels total, one rider is forward, the other backwards, presumably either can be the forward person.)

[Doohickie]

38 minutes ago, steveoath said:

What happens to Eichel the first time he plays against the Tom Wilsons/Claude Lemuiexs of this world who target his neck? For me that would be one of the biggest worries. 

On the one hand there's that MMA guy who had the ADR done and has fought several times since.  On the other hand, MMA fighters don't get 20 mph running starts before landing a punch.  I think that's the thing that made the Sabres (and/or their insurance underwriters) nix the ADR.  I'm not so worried about the enforcers landing a punch or whatever, I'm more worried about an open-ice hit where each player is going near 20 mph but in opposite directions.  There's literally no real world ADR data on taking that kind of a hit.  One can only hope that the developers of the implant have designed it for those kind of loads.

As an engineer myself, I think of the original disc, which is has some give and has a continuous contact surface with each of the adjoining vertebrae to distribute the loads.  From what I've seen in the trade speculation thread, the implant has a smaller contact area with the vertebrae (which isn't too concerning to me because titanium does fuse to bone very well) but then the-cup-and-ball joint has a much, much smaller contact area, and from what I could see, little to no compliance.  I wonder how much of a hit it would take to "pop" the ball out of the socket?  From what I can see it's the natural tendons and ligaments that hold the vertebrae together.  I wonder what the failure modes look like.

[Hoss]

5 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Will Jack wear #9 in Vegas?

I’m just waking up so idk if this has been answered but the team says yes, he’ll wear 9.