Dreger: Eichel situation may be shifting, multiple teams involved

[PromoTheRobot]

14 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

Are we any hungrier than other teams that actually have goaltending?

It's a leap of faith but maybe it won't be that bad. Maybe our defense can play better in front of them.

[HoosierDaddy]

I did a little research, and what I found was that all the NHL teams are required to insure their top 5 contracts with the BWD Group, a NY insurance company. There has been a lot of speculation that it's the insurance company that is preventing the ADR surgery. Since it's the same insurance company, would any team that trades for Jack have to actually assume that $50 million risk?  If that's the case, expect the return to be really small.

[MattPie]

1 hour ago, HoosierDaddy said:

I did a little research, and what I found was that all the NHL teams are required to insure their top 5 contracts with the BWD Group, a NY insurance company. There has been a lot of speculation that it's the insurance company that is preventing the ADR surgery. Since it's the same insurance company, would any team that trades for Jack have to actually assume that $50 million risk?  If that's the case, expect the return to be really small.

Nice find.

Insurance will insure a lot of things, just maybe with drastically increased premiums. No knowledge of the current situation, but there has to be some premium level that they'd insure the contract. It might be so much (like a significant portion of the remaining contract, for instance) that no one wants to flush that money down the toilet whether it works or not.

[Kelly the Dog]

23 minutes ago, MattPie said:

Nice find.

Insurance will insure a lot of things, just maybe with drastically increased premiums. No knowledge of the current situation, but there has to be some premium level that they'd insure the contract. It might be so much (like a significant portion of the remaining contract, for instance) that no one wants to flush that money down the toilet whether it works or not.

I had read about a month ago that insurance covers 75% of Jack’s contract. It was seemingly a reliable source but cannot guarantee it. Makes sense though. 

[Brawndo]

2 hours ago, HoosierDaddy said:

I did a little research, and what I found was that all the NHL teams are required to insure their top 5 contracts with the BWD Group, a NY insurance company. There has been a lot of speculation that it's the insurance company that is preventing the ADR surgery. Since it's the same insurance company, would any team that trades for Jack have to actually assume that $50 million risk?  If that's the case, expect the return to be really small.

Per Friedman’s 32 Thoughts there are 4-5 teams that are comfortable with Jack’s Preferred Surgery the ADR. Each of those teams would be willing to assume full risk and essentially void the insurance policy if His Herniated Disc ends His Career. 
 

Kevyn Adams said yesterday on WGR, they will only trade Eichel when they get the value for a franchise player. 
 

Jeff Marek mentioned on Monday the possibility of Jack having surgery and playing a few games for the Sabres. 
 

However Adams also mentioned in the same interview that Dr Capuccino, who has performed multiple ADRs is not agreement with Jack having it, so I doubt they will change their Minds 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

28 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Per Friedman’s 32 Thoughts there are 4-5 teams that are comfortable with Jack’s Preferred Surgery the ADR. Each of those teams would be willing to assume full risk and essentially void the insurance policy if His Herniated Disc ends His Career. 
 

Kevyn Adams said yesterday on WGR, they will only trade Eichel when they get the value for a franchise player. 
 

Jeff Marek mentioned on Monday the possibility of Jack having surgery and playing a few games for the Sabres. 
 

However Adams also mentioned in the same interview that Dr Capuccino, who has performed multiple ADRs is not agreement with Jack having it, so I doubt they will change their Minds 

This saga is never going to end, eh?

No makeup sex for us.  Yous all can recoverup your naughty bits.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Per Friedman’s 32 Thoughts there are 4-5 teams that are comfortable with Jack’s Preferred Surgery the ADR. Each of those teams would be willing to assume full risk and essentially void the insurance policy if His Herniated Disc ends His Career. 
 

Kevyn Adams said yesterday on WGR, they will only trade Eichel when they get the value for a franchise player. 
 

Jeff Marek mentioned on Monday the possibility of Jack having surgery and playing a few games for the Sabres. 
 

However Adams also mentioned in the same interview that Dr Capuccino, who has performed multiple ADRs is not agreement with Jack having it, so I doubt they will change their Minds 

Thank you for mentioning Dr. Capuccinno. In addition to being known as the doctor most responsible for Kevin Everett being able to walk again due to his immediate on field care when the injury occurred as well as Everett’s continued care afterward, it’s my understanding that he is the preeminent spinal surgeon in the country and has performed the most ADRs of anyone in the field. If he recommends against Eichel getting the ADR, there is literally no better qualified authority for Eichel to listen to. 
 

Perhaps some of these agent shills in the media should better acquaint themselves with exactly who the Sabres have offering medical advice.

 

[erickompositör72]

Do we know: does Dr. Capuccino oppose the ADR surgery for Jack because of potential injury playing hockey post-op?

[That Aud Smell]

18 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Thank you for mentioning Dr. Capuccinno. In addition to being known as the doctor most responsible for Kevin Everett being able to walk again due to his immediate on field care when the injury occurred as well as Everett’s continued care afterward, it’s my understanding that he is the preeminent spinal surgeon in the country and has performed the most ADRs of anyone in the field. If he recommends against Eichel getting the ADR, there is literally no better qualified authority for Eichel to listen to.

Cappuccino is certainly an accomplished spine surgeon. One thing to consider: Plaintiffs' lawyers used to hire Cappuccino to provide expert opinions in personal injury lawsuits. If he agrees to work for your side, it's fair to say that he will generally find a way to express an opinion in-line with the position you're taking.

Edited: To clarify that Cappuccino has probably backed away from an active practice in the past several years -- he had a serious battle with cancer (leukemia, IIRC).

Edited October 13, 2021 by That Aud Smell

[GASabresIUFAN]

I have sided mostly with the Sabres in this matter.  Having a renowned Dr on the Sabres side certainly helps.  However if 4-5 teams are willing to assume the risk of the $ and the surgery, it’s probably time to take the best deal and get this drama over with.

Make sure you get 4 pieces to save face even if 2 are contingent and move on 
 

[K-9]

19 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Cappuccino is certainly an accomplished spine surgeon. One thing to consider: Plaintiffs' lawyers used to hire Cappuccino to provide expert opinions in personal injury lawsuits. If he agrees to work for your side, it's fair to say that he will generally find a way to express an opinion in-line with the position you're taking.

Edited: To clarify that Cappuccino has probably backed away from an active practice in the past several years -- he had a serious battle with cancer (leukemia, IIRC).

The expert testimony angle is interesting in that it’s what Eichel/Fish did in the summer when they did their bit with Dr. Prusmack in order to sway us jurors in the court of public opinion. I wonder if they ever sought out a any differing opinion, let alone that of Dr. Cappuccino. Actually, I’m sure they didn’t.

But I don’t see the need to consider Cappuccini’s role as a paid expert in court when it comes to the Eichel situation. He’s an expert in his field and it makes perfect sense to seek out his testimony if it can help your case. The opposing side presents their own experts as well. Happens every day in courts all around the country as a matter of routine. 

None of that conflicts with his status a preeminent surgeon in his field or the fact that he has performed the most ADRs in this country. There simply is not a better qualified opinion. The Bills and Sabres are lucky to have had him in their employ all these years as is Eichel for getting his advice. 

 

 

 

[K-9]

23 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I have sided mostly with the Sabres in this matter.  Having a renowned Dr on the Sabres side certainly helps.  However if 4-5 teams are willing to assume the risk of the $ and the surgery, it’s probably time to take the best deal and get this drama over with.

Make sure you get 4 pieces to save face even if 2 are contingent and move on 
 

Per the bold, what drama? The one being manufactured by the media and impatient fans?

Eichel is injured and on the LTIR. Other than Eichel’s status as an elite player, the nuts and bolts are not unlike the Girgenson injury last season. Players go on LTIR routinely. No drama required. 

[That Aud Smell]

29 minutes ago, K-9 said:

But I don’t see the need to consider Cappuccini’s role as a paid expert in court when it comes to the Eichel situation.

Why not? Someone paid for his opinion in this matter. Namely, the Sabres (PSE) paid for his opinion. He’s not a neutral. He’s a company man, albeit a highly credentialed professional (whose opinion can’t be bought (🙄)).

Per the CBA, though, it sounds like his word may be final as an initial matter? And I read that there’s some sort of grievance procedure to challenge that determination. Curious as to why that’s not been pursued.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Thank you for mentioning Dr. Capuccinno. In addition to being known as the doctor most responsible for Kevin Everett being able to walk again due to his immediate on field care when the injury occurred as well as Everett’s continued care afterward, it’s my understanding that he is the preeminent spinal surgeon in the country and has performed the most ADRs of anyone in the field. If he recommends against Eichel getting the ADR, there is literally no better qualified authority for Eichel to listen to. 
 

Perhaps some of these agent shills in the media should better acquaint themselves with exactly who the Sabres have offering medical advice.

 

This doesn’t fit their narrative at all. Sabres bad.  Did you hear Robin Lehner?  They botched that.  So obviously anyone who has anything to do with Buffalo sucks. 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

Why not? Someone paid for his opinion in this matter. Namely, the Sabres (PSE) paid for his opinion. He’s not a neutral. He’s a company man, albeit a highly credentialed professional (whose opinion can’t be bought (🙄)).

Per the CBA, though, it sounds like his word may be final as an initial matter? And I read that there’s some sort of grievance procedure to challenge that determination. Curious as to why that’s not been pursued.

Because I don’t believe his availability as a paid expert witness hired by litigants in court has any relevance to his role as a doctor making a diagnosis of a patient’s injury and prescribing a course of treatment based on that diagnosis. Never mind that the vast majority of medical opinion supports the same course. Otherwise the suggestion is that he made his findings according to what the Sabres required and not what was best for his patient. I’m just not jaded enough to believe that. I honestly believe his oath as a doctor trumps all else when it comes to what’s best for Eichel.

Great question regarding the CBA and why Eichel hasn’t filed a grievance. Curious indeed.

[K-9]

46 minutes ago, inkman said:

This doesn’t fit their narrative at all. Sabres bad.  Did you hear Robin Lehner?  They botched that.  So obviously anyone who has anything to do with Buffalo sucks. 

Shills gotta shill. It’s lazy and beyond dishonest though. It’s slimy. 

[That Aud Smell]

8 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Because I don’t believe his availability as a paid expert witness hired by litigants in court has any relevance to his role as a doctor making a diagnosis of a patient’s injury and prescribing a course of treatment based on that diagnosis. Never mind that the vast majority of medical opinion supports the same course. Otherwise the suggestion is that he made his findings according to what the Sabres required and not what was best for his patient. I’m just not jaded enough to believe that. I honestly believe his oath as a doctor trumps all else when it comes to what’s best for Eichel.

He’s not Eichel’s treating doctor. He’s the team’s independent medical examiner (or something along that line). He’s not treating Eichel; he’s protecting the team.

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

He’s not Eichel’s treating doctor. He’s the team’s independent medical examiner (or something along that line). He’s not treating Eichel; he’s protecting the team.

Did he examine Eichel or not? If not, did he consult with the doctors that did? Did he evaluate the images? Did he offer his best medical advice (which happens to agree with medical best practices) based on those evaluations? This idea that he willingly chooses to forego what’s best in his opinion in favor of an alternative treatment just to rubber stamp the Sabres desire is unfounded imo. It’s a direct attack on his character and qualifications as the preeminent physician in his field. In his history as a called expert witness in court, has he had his character called into question? Is there precedence for this?

And I’m not sure how his advice “protects” the team. How? What’s he protecting the team from? Approving a procedure that the majority of his peers are against as well?

Is it a question of the Sabres forcing him to approve one procedure because the insurance company won’t approve the other? That just isn’t in his purview. 

I just don’t understand the idea that he is somehow being dishonest here. 

[Curt]

3 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Cappuccino is certainly an accomplished spine surgeon. One thing to consider: Plaintiffs' lawyers used to hire Cappuccino to provide expert opinions in personal injury lawsuits. If he agrees to work for your side, it's fair to say that he will generally find a way to express an opinion in-line with the position you're taking.

Edited: To clarify that Cappuccino has probably backed away from an active practice in the past several years -- he had a serious battle with cancer (leukemia, IIRC).

I hope the bolded was not an attempted shot at the Dr’s integrity.  It only makes sense that an expert witness would express an opinion in line with those who hired him.  If he didn’t agree with their position he would never have taken the job in the first place.

Edit: Reading further, it clearly was a shot at the doctor’s integrity.  I can’t understand the reasoning though.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Curt

[That Aud Smell]

30 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I just don’t understand the idea that he is somehow being dishonest here. 

Suffice to say: I’m not attacking the guy’s character, integrity, honesty, etc.

These things are far from binary. He’s acting on behalf of the Sabres, assuredly within the bounds of professional standards and ethics.

12 minutes ago, Curt said:

I hope the bolded was not an attempted shot at the Dr’s integrity.  

Edit: Reading further, it clearly was a shot at the doctor’s integrity.  I can’t understand the reasoning though.

Absolutely not, for reasons stated above. This sort of activity goes on all the time. All the time.

Edited October 13, 2021 by That Aud Smell

[That Aud Smell]

Not for nothing: Cappuccino is a world-leading proponent of ADR surgery. He’s practically an evangelist for it.

So the fact that he recommends against it here is … quite something. I’m not sure what that something is, tbh. But it’s remarkable.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Why not? Someone paid for his opinion in this matter. Namely, the Sabres (PSE) paid for his opinion. He’s not a neutral. He’s a company man, albeit a highly credentialed professional (whose opinion can’t be bought (🙄)).

Per the CBA, though, it sounds like his word may be final as an initial matter? And I read that there’s some sort of grievance procedure to challenge that determination. Curious as to why that’s not been pursued.

They paid for Dr C’s opinion and they are following it, and he has high credibility.  Do you really think they told him what to say?  He would probably not ever engage in that kind of a deal.   If he tells Terry (Kim) and Adams to allow the ADR don’t you think they would have? 
 

Maybe Eichel has not filed a grievance because he has been advised that he could very well lose; and then he will be even harder to trade?   

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I have sided mostly with the Sabres in this matter.  Having a renowned Dr on the Sabres side certainly helps.  However if 4-5 teams are willing to assume the risk of the $ and the surgery, it’s probably time to take the best deal and get this drama over with.

Make sure you get 4 pieces to save face even if 2 are contingent and move on 
 

If I’m the Sabres I’m holding onto Jack until I get a worthy return and I’m also working with Jack’s Camp, the NHL, and NHLPA to see if there is a way to minimize the risk to the team if He has the surgery if a return doesn’t meet the desired threshold. 
 

One of the other tidbits mentioned by Friedman was He was unsure if Eichel would be automatically be in breach of contract if He had the surgery on His Own. He would be suspended obviously, but the next steps would be interesting.

Since He is no longer in the Sabres Plans, I think the Team would be Ok with Him having the surgery if they are not liable. 
 

[K-9]

30 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Suffice to say: I’m not attacking the guy’s character, integrity, honesty, etc.

These things are far from binary. He’s acting on behalf of the Sabres, assuredly within the bounds of professional standards and ethics.

Absolutely not, for reasons stated above. This sort of activity goes on all the time. All the time.

I don’t think you mean to impugn his character, but all the same, you are saying that he arrived at a determination based on what the Sabres want and not what’s best for the treatment of the player. That also implies that even if Dr. Cappuccino would recommend ADR, that he would say otherwise, as if he’s precluded from his own independent findings.  I just don’t buy that. 
 

 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

The expert testimony angle is interesting in that it’s what Eichel/Fish did in the summer when they did their bit with Dr. Prusmack in order to sway us jurors in the court of public opinion. I wonder if they ever sought out a any differing opinion, let alone that of Dr. Cappuccino. Actually, I’m sure they didn’t.

But I don’t see the need to consider Cappuccini’s role as a paid expert in court when it comes to the Eichel situation. He’s an expert in his field and it makes perfect sense to seek out his testimony if it can help your case. The opposing side presents their own experts as well. Happens every day in courts all around the country as a matter of routine. 

None of that conflicts with his status a preeminent surgeon in his field or the fact that he has performed the most ADRs in this country. There simply is not a better qualified opinion. The Bills and Sabres are lucky to have had him in their employ all these years as is Eichel for getting his advice. 

 

 

 

You make a potent point in noting that the surgeon who is not recommending the ADR surgery has performed this particular surgery more than any other surgeon. So it is obvious that he is not per se adverse to this type of surgery. What the doctor is clearly saying is that this surgery is not the most appropriate surgery for the injury that Jack has. What is more compelling of an argument than that for the organization to listen to? And as much as the doctor is recognized in his field it should also be highlighted that what Dr. C is recommending is also the prevailing view of doctors in his exclusive field.

Jack has a right to hold to his position on his health situation. And so does the organization. As far as I am concerned KA is handling this situation properly. The issue for KA is not to get this saga over with as it is to resolve it to the best benefit of the organization. It's not about the time as it is about the outcome.