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Is Don Granato the best coach the Sabres have had since Lindy Ruff?


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Coaching records since Ruff.

1) Nolan 144 games  40 - 87 - 17  .67 pts/g

2) Bylsma 164 games 68 - 73 - 23  .97 pts/g

3) Housley 164 games 58 - 84 - 22  .84 pts/g

4) Krueger  97 games  36 - 49 - 12 . 87 pts/g

5) Granato 85 games 27 - 47 - 11 .77 pts/g

6) Rolston 51 games 19 - 26 - 6 .86 pts/g

 

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For all the flak he got Disco Dan is EASILY the best coach we’ve had from the list above in terms of the standard metrics of wanting to win hockey games. Eichel wasn’t even a good overall hockey player yet when Dan was here. 

Edited by Thorny
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2 hours ago, Weave said:

I don’t know how anyone can form a firm opinion of Donny G as a coach when we’ve never seen him operate in an expectation of winning environment.

Im not on board with not blocking the kids and not prioritizing wins, but that’s Donny Gs marching orders.  It definitely sets up a how-can-you-evaluate-him-as-coach scenario, though.

I evaluate him mostly by how I perceive the players to be developing. How I perceive team culture, and 'wins vs. perceived roster talent' are also factors.

I think the latter doesn't get enough attention around here.

Seriously, we talk a lot about the minor league goalies we started the season with, but what about the rest of the dog's breakfast he was handed?

Donnie was given a team that had two 20-point forwards on it. Two!

Okposo/Mittelstadt/Cozens/Thompson/Skinner/Dahlin/Jokiharju had 39 goals combined last year. And those were the best players Adams gave him.

The man is a ***** saint.

Edited by dudacek
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6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I evaluate him mostly by how I perceive the players to be developing. How I perceive team culture, and 'wins vs. perceived roster talent' are also factors.

I think the latter doesn't get enough attention around here.

Seriously, we talk a lot about the minor league goalies we started the season with, but what about the rest of the dog's breakfast he was handed?

Donnie was given a team that had two 20-point forwards on it. Two!

Okposo/Mittelstadt/Cozens/Thompson/Skinner/Dahlin/Jokiharju had 39 goals combined last year. And those were the best players Adams gave him.

The man is a ***** saint.

I like Granato and am on record as such, but there’s a lot of correlation going on too re: some of the younger players taking steps at the ages young players generally take steps at. What we saw with Krueger was active negative influence. A card board cutout behind the bench would literally have helped players to improve year-over-year. 

We are 4th from the bottom of the league, and that’s after a disproportionate start. That doesn’t represent close to an output-above-talent that would have me proclaim him a saint. What’s our talent level, 3rd from the bottom? 

Jury out. 

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36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I like Granato and am on record as such, but there’s a lot of correlation going on too re: some of the younger players taking steps at the ages young players generally take steps at. What we saw with Krueger was active negative influence. A card board cutout behind the bench would literally have helped players to improve year-over-year. 

i think there is definitely a lot of truth to this.

I also think that it’s pretty hard to pick a worse roster in the league, as of Oct. 1, without a helluvalot of Okposo/Skinner/Dahlin/Mittelstadt/Thompson/Cozens projection that was largely undeserved given what we’d seen over the past 2 years.

Who, on paper, had a worse group of goalies, starting six on defence, or centre spine?

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Distance yourself from your Sabre fandom and look at the roster at the start of the year:

4 goalies, none of whom was an NHL regular even as a backup, or was coming off seasons that had given any indication they were ready for an NHL job.

2 talented and unproven kids who had scored 18 goals and played 113 NHL games combined over the past 2 years as your top 2 centres, backed up by a gangly 23-year-old winger who had scored 18 career goals and a veteran many considered the worst regular in the NHL.

A veteran leadership group up front consisting of a pair of veteran wingers who had been paid $30 million to score a combined 32 goals over the past 2 years and were generally considered among the worst contracts in hockey, plus a 10-goal Sabre lifer who missed the entire previous season, and a PP goal scorer who many considered a one-trick pony unlikely to produce away from Jack Eichel’s passes.

An elite talent on the blueline coming off a year where he regressed at both ends of the ice who many were questioning as being even “good” let alone a 1st-pairing player.

And a supporting cast consisting of unproven youngsters and minimum-wage castoffs.

On paper was that actually better than even Arizona, who they are ahead of by 8 points?

I mean, I had hopes for some of these players, but that’s all they were was hopes. The track record for our roster going into this year was certainly worse than anyone other than Arizona.

Edited by dudacek
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11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Counterpoint: 18 wins, and we aren’t getting number 19 today 

I think that's like saying Jack Eichel isn't a good leader because the Sabres never made the playoffs when he was captain.

And *****, spoilers

Edited by dudacek
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To me its an "incomplete" on Donny Meatballs report card. Hard to evaluate what you can do when you're given sh** to work with.

Think of your own job/occupation, COULD you do it effectively if you weren't given the proper materials, staff etc? Of course not !!

Edited by KC Scouts
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1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I think that's like saying Jack Eichel isn't a good leader because the Sabres never made the playoffs when he was captain.

And *****, spoilers

Not really, cause making the playoffs is hard but winning 18 games is easy 

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1 hour ago, KC Scouts said:

To me its an "incomplete" on Donny Meatballs report card. Hard to evaluate what you can do when you're given sh** to work with.

Think of your own job/occupation, COULD you do it effectively if you weren't given the proper materials, staff etc? Of course not !!

It’s about achievement relative to expectations. We are pacing for 62 points. If he’s outpacing expectations, expectations are absurdly low. 

I buy and share the idea he’s done about as can be expected and gets an incomplete - I like lots of what he’s had a hand in and want to see him with a stronger roster. 

Just saying I’m not bowing at the alter of saint Granato cause he’s pacing for a 62 point season. What did we expect? 50 points? Even with this roster that’s absurdly low. 

Check the predictions thread. Few were predicting as low as 62, nm significantly lower. And that was indeed before anyone but ghost of yuri, apparently, saw Tage’s breakout. We don’t now go: “that darn Granato did it! He really did it!” 

He’s been reasonable. 

Edited by Thorny
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5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Coaching records since Ruff.

1) Nolan 144 games  40 - 87 - 17  .67 pts/g (27.8%)

2) Bylsma 164 games 68 - 73 - 23  .97 pts/g (38.4%)

3) Housley 164 games 58 - 84 - 22  .84 pts/g (35.4%)

4) Krueger  97 games  36 - 49 - 12 . 87 pts/g (37.1%)

5) Granato 85 games 27 - 47 - 11 .77 pts/g (31.8%)

6) Rolston 51 games 19 - 26 - 6 .86 pts/g (37.3%)

 

I've added the % of games actually won.

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1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I've added the % of games actually won.

Who had the worst rosters of the bunch?

That Bylsma team actually looks like a decent squad with many NHL vets to complement a young core. We also had actual legit NHL level goaltending with a combined 0.919 save percentage!

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/2016.html

 

Edited by JoeSchmoe
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14 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Who had the worst rosters of the bunch?

That Bylsma team actually looks like a decent squad with many NHL vets to complement a young core. We also had actual legit NHL level goaltending with a combined 0.919 save percentage!

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/2016.html

 

Looking back on rosters is sometimes difficult.  Jack and Sam were rookies.  So in 5 years that roster will almost look star studded, but in reality it was still a bunch of kids finding their way. Erod now looks like a late blooming star, but then looked like an extra piece.  

I wonder when we look back someday at the current team, what will be think? Will we ask how could DG lose with the roster of Dahlin, Samuelsson, Jokiharju, Cozens, Mitts, Thompson, and Tuch?

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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2 hours ago, Thorny said:

It’s about achievement relative to expectations. We are pacing for 62 points. If he’s outpacing expectations, expectations are absurdly low. 

I buy and share the idea he’s done about as can be expected and gets an incomplete - I like lots of what he’s had a hand in and want to see him with a stronger roster. 

Just saying I’m not bowing at the alter of saint Granato cause he’s pacing for a 62 point season. What did we expect? 50 points? Even with this roster that’s absurdly low. 

Check the predictions thread. Few were predicting as low as 62, nm significantly lower. And that was indeed before anyone but ghost of yuri, apparently, saw Tage’s breakout. We don’t now go: “that darn Granato did it! He really did it!” 

He’s been reasonable. 

I think you're basically saying "whatever, Granato's taking a 65-point team to 65 points."

I'm saying i don't know that this was a 65-point team

Let's compare the Oct. 1 2021 roster with Oct. 1 2013 rosters and how they projected at the time without the benefit of hindsight.

  • Hodgson Mittelstadt
  • Moulson Skinner
  • Ennis Olofsson
  • Leino Okposo
  • Girgensons Cozens
  • Stafford Thompson
  • Foligno Hinostroza
  • Ott Caggiula
  • Flynn Asplund
  • D'agostini Bjork
  • Mcormick Ruotsalainen
  • Scott Hayden
  • Ellis Eakin
  • Myers Dahlin
  • Ehrhoff Miller
  • Tallinder-Butcher
  • Pysyk Jokiharju
  • Weber Hagg
  • McBain Bryson
  • Ristolainen Samuelsson
  • Miller Anderson
  • Enroth Tokarski

Is the Sabres starting roster this year appreciably any better than the team that put up 52 points a decade ago? I'd say the skaters look pretty close given where they all were at that moment in time, but the goalies should have given the 1st tank team a 10-point advantage.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000332013.html

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000332021.html

Edited by dudacek
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20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think you're basically saying "whatever, Granato's taking a 65-point team to 65 points."

I'm saying i don't know that this was a 65-point team

Let's compare the Oct. 1 2021 roster with Oct. 1 2013 rosters and how they projected at the time without the benefit of hindsight.

  • Hodgson Mittelstadt
  • Moulson Skinner
  • Ennis Olofsson
  • Leino Okposo
  • Girgensons Cozens
  • Stafford Thompson
  • Foligno Hinostroza
  • Ott Caggiula
  • Flynn Asplund
  • D'agostini Bjork
  • Mcormick Ruotsalainen
  • Scott Hayden
  • Ellis Eakin
  • Myers Dahlin
  • Ehrhoff Miller
  • Tallinder-Butcher
  • Pysyk Jokiharju
  • Weber Hagg
  • McBain Bryson
  • Ristolainen Samuelsson
  • Miller Anderson
  • Enroth Tokarski

Is the Sabres starting roster this year appreciably any better than the team that put up 52 points a decade ago? I'd say the skaters look pretty close given where they all were at that moment in time, but the goalies should have given the 1st tank team a 10-point advantage.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000332013.html

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000332021.html

I think you are forgetting that most of the "better" players on the 2013 team were traded at the deadline (Ott, Miller, McCormick, Moulson).  They went 3-16-2 after the trade deadline in 2014.  At 58 games that team was 16-34-8 compared to this year's 18-32-8.  I suspect that this team with do better down the stretch then that team.  

Honestly at this point, the jury is still completely out on DG.  He has been given a bunch of kids, bad goaltending and a D group of mostly terrible D.  Hard to win that way.  I'd like to see what he can do if KA finally gets him some real goaltending.

That said, DB is the best coach since Ruff until somebody gets this darn team back to the playoffs.  Right now we are debating which crappy coach smells the least. Seriously, not one coach since Ruff has coached a Sabres team to above NHL 500, much less playoff contention.  

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think you are forgetting that most of the "better" players on the 2013 team were traded at the deadline (Ott, Miller, McCormick, Moulson).  They went 3-16-2 after the trade deadline in 2014.  At 58 games that team was 16-34-8 compared to this year's 18-32-8.  I suspect that this team with do better down the stretch then that team.  

Honestly at this point, the jury is still completely out on DG.  He has been given a bunch of kids, bad goaltending and a D group of mostly terrible D.  Hard to win that way.  I'd like to see what he can do if KA finally gets him some real goaltending.

That said, DB is the best coach since Ruff until somebody gets this darn team back to the playoffs.  Right now we are debating which crappy coach smells the least.

i think my point stands: I'm not comparing how the teams finished so much as I am what they looked like when the season started. With the exception of Olofsson, nearly every turd in the box Donnie was handed has met or beat expectations, some of them significantly.

Edited by dudacek
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22 minutes ago, dudacek said:

i think my point stands: I'm not comparing how the teams finished so much as I am what they looked like when the season started.

I guess your point is that DG is doing a better job with less talent then a Rolston/Nolan coached team.  Is that even a debate? 

I think the better question would be a comparison of the 2013/14 Sabres to the 2020/21 Sabres.  I think talent wise we could argue that they had similar star power and the coaches F-up'd both teams. Rolston went (4-15-1) and Ralph Kreuger went (6-18-4).  Look at the names on RK's team. Eichel, Hall, Staal, Reinhart, Dahlin, Risto, Skinner, Montour, Okposo and RK coached them to a 6-18-4 mark. Disgusting.

Moving on from Sam, Jack, Risto, Hall, Staal, and Montour, KA received Levi, Hagg, Tuch, Krebs, 3 1sts, 3 2nds, 2 3rds and a 5th.

When TM dumped Miller, Ott, Vanek, McCormick, Moulson, and Halak  we ended up with Stewart, Carrier, Neuvirth, 2 1sts, 3 2nds.

It looks to me like the the RK team had more trade value. 

Until DG gets a real roster we have no idea whether he is doing well or poorly.  We have seen players like KO and Skinner return to form under DG.  Dahlin, Jokiharju, Bryson, and Thompson are certainly improved this season under DG.  While, Mitts, Asplund, R2, VO, and others aren't flourishing under DG this year.  We have seen him continue to play Hayden, Eakin, Bjork and others when the eye test and analytics say otherwise, which is a huge negative.  

 

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

Need to get a real coach if they care at all about winning or making the playoffs 

Lol. I love this line "get a real coach. 

Granato has coached at all levels from juniors to the nhl during a 20 year career but please, go on. 

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8 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

His record is worse then Ralph Krueger but lets crown him 

You're amazing. 

In one thread you say the Sabres are less talented because Sam and Jack are gone and in this thread you crap on the coach for not polishing this turd better. 

Just say "I hate this team" and move on if everything about them you hate. 

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