Kevyn Adams has botched the Eichel situation horribly

[PromoTheRobot]

11 hours ago, dudacek said:

Whatever respect he deserves for not caving to a bad offer, is voided by his inability to find a way to make a deal happen.

He seems to have left himself no escape hatch in order to rehabilitate Jack’s value.

Medical compromise seems off the table. He hasn’t been able to make a creative deal involving conditionals or salary dumps materialize. And he’s boxed himself out of allowing Jack a dignified road back to the team by allowing things to get personal. Whatever breaks the logjam is going to come months after it could have, too late to help Granato and the kids execute this seasons plan.

He’s done a good job of making Jack the bad guy, but in the process he’s allowed things to get to this point and he’s failed to execute his job: making the team better.

Tell me I’m wrong.

I feel like these are opposites.

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, SDS said:

So, I pretty much hate assertions like this. Casting blame on people who don’t control the entire process nor the time dependent variables isn’t right IMO.

it’s like your wife picking your summer vacation spot in January and then blaming her when the weather sucks when you get there.

Just lump all the threads into one gigantic Terry Pegula thread, then, and be done with it

Adams literally can do no wrong lol

[JoeSchmoe]

One thing I find is that Adams' tone seems to a tad adversarial... Unnecessararily so.

If I were in his shoes, my tact would be to play the game on Eichel's side, but let him know my hands are tied because this is what the doctors and insurance companies are telling us. Essentially, working with him instead of against him.

I think there's an element of the ex-player in him wanting to take on the "new-generation" star forward for not putting the team first like he and the boys would have done back in his day.

[K-9]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Don't think there is anything here I disagree with. Definitely on board with the bolded.

Eichel doing things that suggest he deserves the "bad guy" label doesn't change the fact that Adams hasn't been shy about pointing those things out.

Again, what has Adams pointed out? Other than the “if you don’t wanna be here” stuff? And how much additional shade does that throw at players when it’s the players themselves expressing the same sentiment?

The more I think about it, the “if you don’t wanna be here” stuff needs to be asked by team leadership in the locker-room, specifically by the captain himself. Indeed, by the time a GM has to do it, it’s way too late. 

The players we got in the tank weren’t able to deliver on their promise. For many reasons. But it’s water thru the dam and it’s time to move on already.

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

So, I pretty much hate assertions like this. Casting blame on people who don’t control the entire process nor the time dependent variables isn’t right IMO.

it’s like your wife picking your summer vacation spot in January and then blaming her when the weather sucks when you get there.

Don't people come here specifically to share opinions on the successes and failures of the Sabres?

How is saying Adams needs to do better on the Eichel situation any different than saying Ralph Krueger needs to do better in the way he handles Jeff Skinner, or Risto needs to do better on getting the puck out our zone, or Kim Pegula needs to do better with the game day experience?

I have not blamed Adams for the situation, but I think he has more agency here than you do.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Don't people come here specifically to share opinions on the successes and failures of the Sabres?

How is saying Adams needs to do better on the Eichel situation any different than saying Ralph Krueger needs to do better in the way he handles Jeff Skinner, or Risto needs to do better on getting the puck out our zone, or Kim Pegula needs to do better with the game day experience?

I have not blamed Adams for the situation, but I think he has more agency here than you do.

What do you think he could have done differently?

[Mustache of God]

It's too early to declare this situation "botched". We need to wait for the return.

Right now it appears everyone is low-balling him and anything resembling a ROR return would be a disaster. That would be botching the situation.

It's obvious that this year is another throw-away and there's no reason to rush this. 

[COSabreFan]

Not interested in seeing how good or bad KA or Jack has handled this up till now.  Bigger question is how will this end, it needs to end.

1). Fails physical today and put on LTIR.  Jack sits at home and gets paid till next summer where his no trade kicks in.

2). KA allows Jack surgery, probably with Jack giving Sabres something in return.  Jack heals fine, returns to Sabres, plays in Olympics then gets traded by deadline in Spring.  If that happens they could have done that in March and avoided this mess.

3). KA plays hardball and forces Sabres surgery, terminates contract if he doesn’t.  Then he gets nothing for him at all.

4). Jack just has surgery, Sabres terminate contract or sue him?
 

Not sure if KA has as much leverage as he thinks.  Plus I’m sure Terry is calling these shots, which makes it much worse.  My opinion is he should allow Jack his surgery, hedge/insure best you can, get what you can.  Not seeing any other option that is good for Sabres organization in long term.

[K-9]

9 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

One thing I find is that Adams' tone seems to a tad adversarial... Unnecessararily so.

If I were in his shoes, my tact would be to play the game on Eichel's side, but let him know my hands are tied because this is what the doctors and insurance companies are telling us. Essentially, working with him instead of against him.

I think there's an element of the ex-player in him wanting to take on the "new-generation" star forward for not putting the team first like he and the boys would have done back in his day.

What points to KA not working with Eichel? Is it just saying no to a surgery Eichel prefers? A surgery not recommended by well established medical best practices? A surgery the Sabres are not indemnified against and that has the potential to void insurance policies? Since when does “working with me” mean acquiescing to my every demand? 

And if KA is tweaked that players aren’t putting the team first? More power to him. That’s not an old school trait in the least. It’s part and parcel to sustained excellence. And every great team in sports is loaded with players that do that; from the last guy on the bench nobody notices much to the superstars who get all the glory. Any players giving less are soon drummed out. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What do you think he could have done differently?

I understand some of these things are contradictory, and I am not endorsing any of them, let alone all. Just throwing some possibilities out there to answer your question.

• Not quietly shopped Eichel last fall before the season started and instead patched up the relationship.
• Traded Jack last fall when he was healthy and his value was as high as it is going to be.
• Built a better team last winter in order to prevent the organizational frustration that has boiled over
• Not tried to deal an injured Eichel and instead made it clear he was not on the market until he got healthy again.
• Allowed Jack to get the surgery he wants
• Drawn a line in the sand by telling Jack that nothing was going to happen until he accepted the team-endorsed treatment, forcing his hand.
• Adjusted his trade criteria in order to better accommodate the needs of a partner (things like taking back salary, accepting 3 parts instead of 4, or making a hockey trade)
• Acknowledged that Jack isn't worth what he thought he was on the market and accepted a lesser return (which doesn't mean a bad return).
• Gotten creative by bringing in multiple teams (like the Duchene trade)
• Made the trade highly conditional based on performance-based criteria

Obviously we don't know what he has or hasn't tried.

I'm not comfortable with the generally accepted premise around here that Adams has done everything he can.

Edited September 22, 2021 by dudacek

[K-9]

Why didn’t Eichel file for medical arbitration as is his right under the CBA? That seems curious to me. 

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

That’s the evidence that KA has made Johnny out to be the bad guy? Really? A GM demanding that players need to want to be here and wear the sweater with pride? When it’s been one example after another of key players in leadership roles suggesting they don’t want to play here, like ROR, Risto, and Reinhart for example? 

The reasons for players feeling that way are certainly understandable and I hope those reasons are rectified ASAP like we all do, but they are quite detrimental to a team trying to move forward because a new culture can’t be established with disgruntled players, especially disgruntled players in key leadership positions.

I give KA credit for recognizing it, calling it out, and accommodating those players who wanted to leave. As soon as the neck is deemed healthy, Eichel will have his wish to get out fulfilled as well.

The only person who hurt Eichel’s image was Team Eichel itself, but I give him credit for firing his agent and getting representation that won’t further hurt is image.  
 

 

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Don't think there is anything here I disagree with. Definitely on board with the bolded.

Eichel doing things that suggest he deserves the "bad guy" label doesn't change the fact that Adams hasn't been shy about pointing those things out.

God forbid we ever try to give them a reason to stay.

We blame our better players for the losses, they want to leave, and we replace them with league minimum borderline NHLers.

Bye bye, Dahlin. I hope you fine your love of the game again in three years on your new team.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

JFC I hate this team.

[Peter]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

Whatever respect he deserves for not caving to a bad offer, is voided by his inability to find a way to make a deal happen.

He seems to have left himself no escape hatch in order to rehabilitate Jack’s value.

Medical compromise seems off the table. He hasn’t been able to make a creative deal involving conditionals or salary dumps materialize. And he’s boxed himself out of allowing Jack a dignified road back to the team by allowing things to get personal. Whatever breaks the logjam is going to come months after it could have, too late to help Granato and the kids execute this seasons plan.

He’s done a good job of making Jack the bad guy, but in the process he’s allowed things to get to this point and he’s failed to execute his job: making the team better.

Tell me I’m wrong.

The part that I underlined makes sense.  The rest of the sentence contradicts the first part.

I am all for NOT caving just to get a deal done. 

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

 

God forbid we ever try to give them a reason to stay.

We blame our better players for the losses, they want to leave, and we replace them with league minimum borderline NHLers.

Bye bye, Dahlin. I hope you fine your love of the game again in three years on your new team.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

JFC I hate this team.

I don’t think I’m blaming our better players for the losses as it takes much, much more than great players to become a sustainable winning franchise. In any team sport.

But it turned out that they weren’t part of the solution we all hope for when we tanked to get them and they wanted out as a result so, ironically, they are part of that very inability to give them a reason to want to stay. 

Time to move on.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I understand some of these things are contradictory, and I am not endorsing any of them, let alone all. Just throwing some possibilities out there to answer your question.

• Not quietly shopped Eichel last fall before the season started and instead patched up the relationship.
• Traded Jack last fall when he was healthy and his value was as high as it is going to be.
• Built a better team last winter in order to prevent the organizational frustration that has boiled over
• Not tried to deal an injured Eichel and instead made it clear he was not on the market until he got healthy again.
• Allowed Jack to get the surgery he wants
• Drawn a line in the sand by telling Jack that nothing was going to happen until he accepted the team-endorsed treatment, forcing his hand.
• Adjusted his trade criteria in order to better accommodate the needs of a partner (things like taking back salary, accepting 3 parts instead of 4, or making a hockey trade)
• Acknowledged that Jack isn't worth what he thought he was on the market and accepted a lesser return (which doesn't mean a bad return).
• Gotten creative by bringing in multiple teams (like the Duchene trade)
• Made the trade highly conditional based on performance-based criteria

Obviously we don't know what he has or hasn't tried.

I'm not comfortable with the generally accepted premise around here that Adams has done everything he can.

Had he received a reasonable offer that wasn't contingent of Jack being healthy, he'd have take it even if it wasn't his 4 pieces so that he could move on.  He even took an in division trade to move on from Reinhart.  He did draw a line in the sand by standing firm on the medical procedure to follow. 

He also tried to build a better team to appease Jack.  Trading for Staal, signing Eakin and Hall, were all to appease Jack and RK.  It failed miserably. 

He also couldn't allow Jack to get ADR because of the contract insurance.   

Like I said earlier, I'm not really sure what Adams could have done differently but give Jack away for nothing or take him off the market.  Remember I want KA fired.  If I could see away to agree with you I would.  

Edited September 22, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, Peter said:

The part that I underlined makes sense.  The rest of the sentence contradicts the first part.

I am all for NOT caving just to get a deal done. 

It's not a contradiction, he's merely illustrating that using an unknown to prop Adams up can be used to bring him down, in much the same way. Adams holding out on this isn't good, or bad, if we are only using the information strictly defined and nothing more. That'd @dudacek's point - that he is uncomfortable with the praise he's getting. He could be turning down awful offers, but he could also be turning down offers we'd all take. 

[pi2000]

53 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Why didn’t Eichel file for medical arbitration as is his right under the CBA? That seems curious to me. 

Because he would've lost. 

[nfreeman]

My 2 cents:

- I continue to believe that the injury has been and remains an insurmountable obstacle to any kind of real trade.  No GM is going to take on a $50MM contract AND part with his team's crown jewels in the face of a spinal injury that has cost the player a season and an offseason, remains unhealed and for which the player is demanding a type of surgery that hasn't been used previously in the NHL (or any other sport, apparently, other than MMA, where life is cheap).   So I think it's pretty unrealistic to blame KA for, say, not getting Zegras, Drysdale, etc. for Jack by now.

- Having said that, @Thorny and others are 100% correct in saying that KA is accountable for the team's success or failure.  Every GM faces challenges.  It's his job to figure out a way to overcome them.  KA, like JB, iced the worst GD team in the NHL in his first year as GM.  Everyone with functioning eyesight knew in the summer of 2020 that the Sabres needed better goaltending, just like they do now.  KA for some reason has looked the other way.  It doomed the team last season -- likely contributing, as @dudacek notes, to Jack's alienation and desire to GTFO -- and will probably do so again this season absent a UPL miracle.

- Similarly, KA appears to have decided that Jack is part of the problem and needs to go, and not that he is part of the solution and needs to stay.  We'll never know how toxic Jack's behavior is, or whether KA's decision was driven more by the injury than by Jack's attitude, but there is a strong argument to be made that a no-BS franchise center is such a precious commodity that the GM needs to figure out a way to bring him into the fold, and a failure to do so is always the GM's fault.  (Although again it's possible that the decision was driven by a determination that Jack's injury means that he is no longer a franchise center.)

- Bottom line:  I don't think KA necessarily has screwed up the Eichel situation, but regardless of what happens with Eichel, KA is accountable for the team's results.  So far he's off to a crappy start.

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Because he would've lost. 

Perhaps, but if he’s so passionate about his cause it seems to me that he’d exhaust every viable option to get his way. 

[Peter]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It's not a contradiction, he's merely illustrating that using an unknown to prop Adams up can be used to bring him down, in much the same way. Adams holding out on this isn't good, or bad, if we are only using the information strictly defined and nothing more. That'd @dudacek's point - that he is uncomfortable with the praise he's getting. He could be turning down awful offers, but he could also be turning down offers we'd all take. 

Then we disagree. Fair enough. I like the approach Adams is taking and have NO problem with not doing a deal just to do a deal. Negotiating is a process - whether it is a multi-million dollar business deal or simply purchasing a car.

P.S. Has anyone heard of any "offers we'd all take" that Adams has turned down?!? I certainly have not.

[dudacek]

19 minutes ago, Peter said:

The part that I underlined makes sense.  The rest of the sentence contradicts the first part.

Except it doesn't. Adams job is use the asset of Jack Eichel to make his team better. He has not done that. Jack is not helping the team by playing, he is not helping the team by providing assets in a trade. He's not helping the team by rehabilitating his health or his reputation.

I don't understand why the default is that no deal is a success because Adams "hasn't caved."

We have no idea what deals have been rejected or what avenues have not been pursued.

 

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Had he received a reasonable offer that wasn't contingent of Jack being healthy, he'd have take it even if it wasn't his 4 pieces so that he could move on.  He even took an in division trade to get move on from Reinhart.  He did draw a line in the sand by standing firm on the medical procedure to follow. 

He also tried to build a better team to appease Jack.  Trading for Staal, signing Eakin and Hall, were all to appease Jack and RK.  It failed miserably. 

He also couldn't allow Jack to get ADR because of the contract insurance.   

Like I said earlier, I'm not really sure what Adams could have done differently but give Jack away for nothing or take him off the market.  Remember I want KA fired.  If I could see away to agree with you I would.  

You don't know what offers he has received.

Trying doesn't matter. You asked what he could have done and he failed to build a better team.

You don't know about the insurance situation, or whether there were ways around it.

You don't know if it was "for nothing"

And he could have taken him off the market.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, dudacek said:

Except it doesn't. Adams job is use the asset of Jack Eichel to make his team better. He has not done that. Jack is not helping the team by playing, he is not helping the team by providing assets in a trade. He's not helping the team by rehabilitating his health or his reputation.

I don't understand why the default is that no deal is a success because Adams "hasn't caved."

We have no idea what deals have been rejected or what avenues have not been pursued.

 

You don't know what offers he has received.

Trying doesn't matter. You asked what he could have done and he failed to build a better team.

You don't know about the insurance situation, or whether there were ways around it.

You don't know if it was "for nothing"

And he could have taken him off the market.

Actually I do know about the insurance.  I have a close friend in the industry who creates these types of insurance products.  He told me that the Sabres have a policy on Jack and that the typical policy in the industry pays 75%.  

[dudacek]

Does your friend know first-hand the insurance will not cover Jack's preferred surgery?

Does he know first-hand that a different policy cannot be negotiated?

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Does your friend know first-hand the insurance will not cover Jack's preferred surgery?

Does he know first-hand that a different policy cannot be negotiated?

If the policy had allowed the surgery then it probably would have happened. The stories of the ADR being "experimental" is insurance speak for a non-covered procedure.   

No one is going to underwrite a new policy with Jack's now pre-existing condition.   The old policy maybe re-negotiated because all policies are negotiable in that industry.  However too change the risk in the policy would involve more premium or some type of medical proof that the non-previously approved procedure is medically necessary.  Had Jack gone to medical arbitration and won, the Sabres would have a great case for forcing the insurance company to waive their objections to the ADR procedure.  

To date we have no information that anyone has tried to renegotiate the policy or get them to waive their objections to ADR.  I thought it was good news on that front when a news story mentioned Jack consulting a new set of West Coast Drs.  However, nothing has come of it.    

 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

By the logic of your first line, we also can't say that Adams hasn't done anything poorly yet either.

Without knowing what offers were out there, we can't say he has done poorly or well.  He could be the worst GM in the league or he might be the best. We just don't have anything to go on.

In part, but pretty much every hockey talk show or "expert" I've heard or read has said what many here have said - the team can't move on and start a new building path with this matter of Eichel unresolved. 

Otherwise, he gets evaluated on what he has done. Eakin, Staal, losing Ullmark for nothing, trades of Reinhart and Risto, lack of new free agents added. Draft picks can't be evaluated for a few years (we can only start going over JBot's record drafting now) but otherwise, that's what he gets graded on and I see no obvious wins.