Kevyn Adams has botched the Eichel situation horribly

[Flashsabre]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

No, leveraging the asset for fair market value is the correct play.

I think a lot of you have missed the point of this (deliberately provocative) thread.

A lot of people (me included) don't want Adams to take less than market value. But their satisfaction that he hasn't made a bad trade has blinded them to the fact that he has failed to make a good one, or apparently made any progress in removing the obstacles blocking it.

Too many of you have chosen to adopt a side in this. It should not be about Jack getting his way, versus Adams staying strong.

It should be about making the Buffalo Sabres better.

To the bold, you didn't have Eichel on the team in the spring, you don't have him now, and there is a damn good chance you won't have him in a year.

One of the best assets in the NHL is sitting on a shelf, not making the Buffalo Sabres better.

Yes, when you are a Buffalo Sabres fan, not ***** things up (yet) is equivalent to handling things well. This is precisely my point.

Adams may have been dealt a bad hand here.

But he has failed to keep the team's relationship with its captain on track.

He has failed to find a way to resolve Jack's injury situation.

And he has failed to make a deal.

And people are OK with these failures because Jack is a "prima donna," we haven't got "bent over," and "we weren't planning on winning this season any way."

This is where @pi2000 would say "do better"

 

What are you mumbling about “do better”? You started a thread and have had to explain and re explain it because you couldn’t get your points across in the the initial post.

Jack had to can his agent so let’s not put everything on Adams doorstep. If Jack wanted a good relationship with the team he would have had the surgery the doctors approved and be rehabbing already.

Until we know what trade offers other teams put forth or specific details of the back and forth has gone between the Sabres and Jack’s camp then we can’t say Adams has botched it.

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

What are you mumbling about “do better”? You started a thread and have had to explain and re explain it because you couldn’t get your points across in the the initial post.

Jack had to can his agent so let’s not put everything on Adams doorstep. If Jack wanted a good relationship with the team he would have had the surgery the doctors approved and be rehabbing already.

Until we know what trade offers other teams put forth or specific details of the back and forth has gone between the Sabres and Jack’s camp then we can’t say Adams has botched it.

If it wasn't clear, the "do better" was aimed at Adams, not at you.

[Doohickie]

4 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Until we know what trade offers other teams put forth

That is information we will never know.  Ever.

What were the other offers in the ROR trade?  If a team makes an offer and it isn't accepted, it's not like it gets documented somewhere.  It is, at best, hearsay and even among people in the room I bet there would be differences in memory.

[Thorny]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

Whatever respect he deserves for not caving to a bad offer, is voided by his inability to find a way to make a deal happen.

He seems to have left himself no escape hatch in order to rehabilitate Jack’s value.

Medical compromise seems off the table. He hasn’t been able to make a creative deal involving conditionals or salary dumps materialize. And he’s boxed himself out of allowing Jack a dignified road back to the team by allowing things to get personal. Whatever breaks the logjam is going to come months after it could have, too late to help Granato and the kids execute this seasons plan.

He’s done a good job of making Jack the bad guy, but in the process he’s allowed things to get to this point and he’s failed to execute his job: making the team better.

Tell me I’m wrong.

You are correct, sir. 

Several weeks ago I brought up Olympics being a source of disappointment for Eichel, too - which does seem to be a factor at play based on the new quote. 

8 hours ago, pi2000 said:

KA is showing some backbone here and it requires patience on our part.

The worst thing he could do is panic sell, which is what we've seen from recent Sabres GMs.

Holding the asset until you receive fair market value is the correct play... albeit something we're simply not used to as Sabres fans, so we get posts like this, smh.

How many other NHL franchises have a situation like this headed into the season? 

[Thorny]

8 hours ago, Hoss said:

I find it odd that people are just sitting there and saying they respect KA exclusively because a deal hasn't happened. We don't know what deals have or haven't been offered. We do know this situation looks historically bad for the franchise. That's enough for me to say Adams is completely lost here and the situation will only continue to spiral until a deal is done.

Dude, people hate Jack Eichel. 

Dudacek covered it when he said "he's done a good job making Jack the bad guy"

Just look at all the posts from the usual suspects when the new quote was brought into the other thread. 

As long as fans can tout "the future", winning and being a good team literally doesn't matter as much to many people as finding a way to screw Jack

This place makes me kinda sad now 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Thorny

[Flashsabre]

19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If it wasn't clear, the "do better" was aimed at Adams, not at you.

I apologize then.😀

[Thorny]

43 minutes ago, dudacek said:

No, leveraging the asset for fair market value is the correct play.

I think a lot of you have missed the point of this (deliberately provocative) thread.

A lot of people (me included) don't want Adams to take less than market value. But their satisfaction that he hasn't made a bad trade has blinded them to the fact that he has failed to make a good one, or apparently made any progress in removing the obstacles blocking it.

Too many of you have chosen to adopt a side in this. It should not be about Jack getting his way, versus Adams staying strong.

It should be about making the Buffalo Sabres better.

To the bold, you didn't have Eichel on the team in the spring, you don't have him now, and there is a damn good chance you won't have him in a year.

One of the best assets in the NHL is sitting on a shelf, not making the Buffalo Sabres better.

Yes, when you are a Buffalo Sabres fan, not ***** things up (yet) is equivalent to handling things well. This is precisely my point.

Adams may have been dealt a bad hand here.

But he has failed to keep the team's relationship with its captain on track.

He has failed to find a way to resolve Jack's injury situation.

And he has failed to make a deal.

And people are OK with these failures because Jack is a "prima donna," we haven't got "bent over," and "we weren't planning on winning this season any way."

This is where @pi2000 would say "do better"

 

You are so, so on the mark here with the bolded. Been saying it forever - the fans have mentally written off Jack. That was part of KA's strategy. The fans have basically accepted the fact that Jack and the talent he represented is no longer a part of this organization. That's already been processed and accepted. So rather than him being viewed as what he still is, by far our greatest asset - and one we absolutely need to make GOOD on, he's already out the door, his dissatisfaction is a badge of honor for KA, and, as many have typed, the return on Jack is "just gravy"

This is basically called "losing the plot", as you have outlined brilliantly. 

43 minutes ago, dudacek said:

No, leveraging the asset for fair market value is the correct play.

I think a lot of you have missed the point of this (deliberately provocative) thread.

A lot of people (me included) don't want Adams to take less than market value. But their satisfaction that he hasn't made a bad trade has blinded them to the fact that he has failed to make a good one, or apparently made any progress in removing the obstacles blocking it.

Too many of you have chosen to adopt a side in this. It should not be about Jack getting his way, versus Adams staying strong.

It should be about making the Buffalo Sabres better.

To the bold, you didn't have Eichel on the team in the spring, you don't have him now, and there is a damn good chance you won't have him in a year.

One of the best assets in the NHL is sitting on a shelf, not making the Buffalo Sabres better.

Yes, when you are a Buffalo Sabres fan, not ***** things up (yet) is equivalent to handling things well. This is precisely my point.

Adams may have been dealt a bad hand here.

But he has failed to keep the team's relationship with its captain on track.

He has failed to find a way to resolve Jack's injury situation.

And he has failed to make a deal.

And people are OK with these failures because Jack is a "prima donna," we haven't got "bent over," and "we weren't planning on winning this season any way."

This is where @pi2000 would say "do better"

 

It's also where @pi2000would say the bolded, as he already has this offseason 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

In defense of Adams what exactly was he supposed to do here?

He is between a rock and a hard place.  He has a valuable injured player with a potential career threatening injury.  He owes that player $50 mill in guaranteed money and has an insurance policy protecting 75% of the liability.  

This can only play out in so many ways

1) He trades Jack for nothing to a team willing take on the contract liability and the injury.  My guess is there will be a buyer or two here, but KA isn't trading him for nothing.

2) He tries to get value for Jack in trade, but no team wants the contract liability until Jack's proven healthy.  Therefore he hasn't been traded

3) KA approves the surgery Jack wants, but that potentially voids the insurance and if it fails, KA has no insurance, no player and a $50 mill liability.  No one would go down this road

4) Jack has the surgery the team wants.  From Jack's point of view, this is a non-starter, because the more traditional ACDF surgery can limit his motion and I believe it has a longer recovery time according to what I've read.

5) Jack has the surgery without permission from the club.  This voids his contract costing him $50 mill and if it fails, his career is probably over.  Not a risk worth taking

6) Stalemate continues - Jack reports, goes on IR and the Sabres make a claim on their policy.   This is where this gets interesting. Assuming they don't try to deny the claim, the insurance company will probably be more open to alternative treatments in order to get Jack back on the ice and playing in order to limit their own obligations on the contract.  My guess is to get them to change their opinion, there has to be more medical evidence that ADR is the way to go and additional premium $ need to be paid.  

Other then the PR battle, I'm not exactly sure what KA was supposed to do differently.  I have no affection for KA the GM, but I'm not really sure what else he could do here if Jack won't have the team prescribed surgery?  His only other option was to trade Jack for pennies on the dollar. I wonder if Fish got fired for not giving Jack control of his health care in the contract.

 

 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Dude, people hate Jack Eichel. 

Dudacek covered it when he said "he's done a good job making Jack the bad guy"

Just look at all the posts from the usual suspects when the new quote was brought into the other thread. 

Really have never fully understood the dislike of him.  But it's been there a lot longer than Adams being the GM.

And really believe that Adams was never overly impressed with him either.  Still think that building around Eichel last year was done begrudgingly & that KA isn't going to be sad when he finally gets to deal Jack away.  And though it creates a ST headache for him in that he's been answering Q's about Jack & will continue to do so, having $10MM worth of cap sitting on the sideline kind of seems to fit In well w/ the LT plan of re-reloading w/ high picks.  So, he's getting most of what he wants & it's a tire fire now.  But it really didn't have to be one.

Eichel hasn't handled this particularly well.  But, not really sure how a guy in his spot handles rejection for the 1st time literally ever in his chosen profession.

Worst.  Summer.  Ever.

[Digger]

There hasn't been enough facts to be able to say if you're wrong or right.  Time will tell.

The analogy for Eichel is having a beautiful classic car and then covering it up and storing it in the barn.  Eventually you forget that it's there but then someone will come along finds it and buys it at a great deal, restores it, and then brags about how they got such a great deal.  Today our value for Jack is all in potential for the restoration and sale price.  I hope it works out. 

[mjd1001]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is impossible to answer because we don't know what offers he has turned down. 

Hypothetically I'd have to say yes I and many others here might have because we felt the urgency required. Adams deconstructed the team but did it backwards moving the easiest pieces first and the biggest/toughest one still on the books while also botching goaltending and possibly whatever's happening with Dahlin. 

Overall, really, the question for me is what has Adams done well yet?

By the logic of your first line, we also can't say that Adams hasn't done anything poorly yet either.

Without knowing what offers were out there, we can't say he has done poorly or well.  He could be the worst GM in the league or he might be the best. We just don't have anything to go on.

[MattPie]

6 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

By the logic of your first line, we also can't say that Adams hasn't done anything poorly yet either.

Without knowing what offers were out there, we can't say he has done poorly or well.  He could be the worst GM in the league or he might be the best. We just don't have anything to go on.

And we won't unless something leaks (and can be trusted). Like someone said upthread, it's not like there are going to be documents in some (most?) cases for what was offered. I'd think this all happens as phone calls or maybe text messages.

[K-9]

What, specifically, has KA said or done that makes Johnny look like the bad guy?
 

While I’m waiting for an answer to that, I’ll point out that Johnny and his previous agent (there’s no separating the agent from Johnny, btw) said and did a couple things to bring the flack Johnny’s way. 

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Really have never fully understood the dislike of him.  But it's been there a lot longer than Adams being the GM.

And really believe that Adams was never overly impressed with him either.  Still think that building around Eichel last year was done begrudgingly & that KA isn't going to be sad when he finally gets to deal Jack away.  And though it creates a ST headache for him in that he's been answering Q's about Jack & will continue to do so, having $10MM worth of cap sitting on the sideline kind of seems to fit In well w/ the LT plan of re-reloading w/ high picks.  So, he's getting most of what he wants & it's a tire fire now.  But it really didn't have to be one.

Eichel hasn't handled this particularly well.  But, not really sure how a guy in his spot handles rejection for the 1st time literally ever in his chosen profession.

Worst.  Summer.  Ever.

It's a good point - so much is being written off because "this season was never about winning anyway". Our best asset sitting on the shelf for a full year? Who cares! The strategy allows for so much leeway because results don't matter. Jack sitting of course doesn't harm the "we are trying to lose" strategy, so again, the move within the context of the strategy makes some sense - the strategy is just a terrible one. The fact that maximizing (or really doing anything) with our best asset is irrelevant to the plan illustrates how faulty the plan is. 

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, MattPie said:

And we won't unless something leaks (and can be trusted). Like someone said upthread, it's not like there are going to be documents in some (most?) cases for what was offered. I'd think this all happens as phone calls or maybe text messages.

Isn't one of @dudacek's points timeline, though? "Good or bad GM, we just can't know". Doesn't resolving issues in a reasonable timeframe matter? Let's say he's still "holding firm" 3 years from now (just to make an argument here). Is he still unjudgable? I think it's pretty clear he can't just wait indefinitely. A deal actually being conceived in a reasonable timeframe is a huge factor and I think the OP is making the point that, while not unheard of, the amount this process has dragged out has been exceptionally uncommon. 

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, K-9 said:

What, specifically, has KA said or done that makes Johnny look like the bad guy?
 

While I’m waiting for an answer to that, I’ll point out that Johnny and his previous agent (there’s no separating the agent from Johnny, btw) said and did a couple things to bring the flack Johnny’s way. 

"We want players who want to be here." Over and over again.

Players who bleed Sabre blue, players who wake up in the morning thinking about how they are going to make the Sabres better, "blinding light" players .

The subtext is impossible to ignore.

Edited September 22, 2021 by dudacek

[MattPie]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Isn't one of @dudacek's points timeline, though? "Good or bad GM, we just can't know". Doesn't resolving issues in a reasonable timeframe matter? Let's say he's still "holding firm" 3 years from now (just to make an argument here). Is he still unjudgable? I think it's pretty clear he can't just wait indefinitely. A deal actually being conceived in a reasonable timeframe is a huge factor and I think the OP is making the point that, while not unheard of, the amount this process has dragged out has been exceptionally uncommon. 

That's true. Adams is in a tough spot. If all the offers are something equivalent to "Psysk, Lazar, and a 4th" I'm fine with waiting. If Jack gets to healthy, and refuses to play, maybe it's time to cut bait.  But we're not there yet.

[bob_sauve28]

8 minutes ago, K-9 said:

What, specifically, has KA said or done that makes Johnny look like the bad guy?
 

While I’m waiting for an answer to that, I’ll point out that Johnny and his previous agent (there’s no separating the agent from Johnny, btw) said and did a couple things to bring the flack Johnny’s way. 

I guess the only thing would be is that he might of said he does not want to be here anymore. I get this from Adams saying he only wants players that want to be here. Still. I don't blame Jack for hating this losing. Seeing how the goaltending issue is not going to be fixed, we are going into another bad season. I don't hate Jack for not wanting to waste his career on a perennial loser. And KA has his hands tied with the injury situation. 

 

We all need to have patience on this one, in my opinion 

[inkman]

When a team sucks this bad, the off-seasons are unbearable. 

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

"We want players who want to be here." Over and over again.

Players who bleed Sabre blue, players who wake up in the morning thinking about how they are going to make the Sabres better, "blinding light" players .

The subtext is impossible to ignore.

The latest embedded video, the marketing material the sabres organization uses to sell the team, is a 2 minute long vid featuring only Adams conversation with a guy we just traded, our best player from last year, to illustrate that he doesn't hate KA and the team.

This is the material they are putting out there to get people to watch the team and buy tickets and pay - a conversation with the guy we just traded for peanuts. A phone conversation with a former player, our best forward, who we just gave away because we don't care about winning - now go, buy tickets. 

"Reinhart doesn't hate the Sabres! Get JACKED UP for 2021-22!"

[irregularly irregular]

The short answer is yes, you are wrong. There are 2 reasons why.

First, unless you are holding out on us, there is no way you know all of the pieces and parts that part of this mess.

Secondly, many of those moving pieces and parts are way beyond KA's control. 

 

 

[K-9]

23 minutes ago, dudacek said:

"We want players who want to be here." Over and over again.

Players who bleed Sabre blue, players who wake up in the morning thinking abut how they are going to make the Sabres better, "blinding light" players .

The subtext is impossible to ignore.

That’s the evidence that KA has made Johnny out to be the bad guy? Really? A GM demanding that players need to want to be here and wear the sweater with pride? When it’s been one example after another of key players in leadership roles suggesting they don’t want to play here, like ROR, Risto, and Reinhart for example? 

The reasons for players feeling that way are certainly understandable and I hope those reasons are rectified ASAP like we all do, but they are quite detrimental to a team trying to move forward because a new culture can’t be established with disgruntled players, especially disgruntled players in key leadership positions.

I give KA credit for recognizing it, calling it out, and accommodating those players who wanted to leave. As soon as the neck is deemed healthy, Eichel will have his wish to get out fulfilled as well.

The only person who hurt Eichel’s image was Team Eichel itself, but I give him credit for firing his agent and getting representation that won’t further hurt is image.  
 

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, K-9 said:

That’s the evidence that KA has made Johnny out to be the bad guy? Really? A GM demanding that players need to want to be here and wear the sweater with pride? When it’s been one example after another of key players in leadership roles suggesting they don’t want to play here, like ROR, Risto, and Reinhart for example? 

The reasons for players feeling that way are certainly understandable and I hope those reasons are rectified ASAP like we all do, but they are quite detrimental to a team trying to move forward because a new culture can’t be established with disgruntled players, especially disgruntled players in key leadership positions.

I give KA credit for recognizing it, calling it out, and accommodating those players who wanted to leave. As soon as the neck is deemed healthy, Eichel will have his wish to get out fulfilled as well.

The only person who hurt Eichel’s image was Team Eichel itself, but I give him credit for firing his agent and getting representation that won’t further hurt is image.  
 

Don't think there is anything here I disagree with. Definitely on board with the bolded.

Eichel doing things that suggest he deserves the "bad guy" label doesn't change the fact that Adams hasn't been shy about pointing those things out.

[SDS]

So, I pretty much hate assertions like this. Casting blame on people who don’t control the entire process nor the time dependent variables isn’t right IMO.

it’s like your wife picking your summer vacation spot in January and then blaming her when the weather sucks when you get there.

[inkman]

Just now, SDS said:

So, I pretty much hate assertions like this. Casting blame on people who don’t control the entire process nor the time dependent variables isn’t right IMO.

it’s like your wife picking your summer vacation spot in January and then blaming her when the weather sucks when you get there.

My wife would pick the destination then blame me for the weather.  😀