Forwards This Season 2021-22 & Beyond

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, Digger said:

Great points.  From my perspective we will be having 3 lines that are somewhere between a 2nd and 3rd line quality this season.

Whatever people adjudged the quality of the F group to be last season, that's my bet for this season, slightly lessened - as Adams has made the forward group significantly worse, but expecting we should see some improvement from the younger players. How much is hard to say, when so far I see them in roles above their pay grade and considering other teams also have growing young players, a fact often glossed over. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

32 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't know that any of those centres will be playing an appropriate role. Casey isn't a 1C, Cozens isn't a 2C, and Ruotsalainen hasn't even played C at the NHL level 

This happens every year.  People want guarantees. They don't exist. Skinner scored 40, must be signed to a long term deal yelled this board because he'll now score 40 every year playing with Jack.  Didn't happen.  Mitts is a bust yelled this board.  Now it's Mitts can't play 1C.  He did just fine as the 2C down the stretch and is the best option we have right now.  I also have zero worries about R2 as a C in the NHL.  Will he be over matched at times.  Probably, but his skill level will give him an advantage against many 3C's in the NHL.  Cozens is still a kid and we are force feeding him, but if anyone can be force feed a role I think he is the guy.  I actually don't think there is any question that Cozens will eventually be a very effective 2C.  Hopefully starting next year.  

For comparison purposes here is last years opening centers - Eichel, Staal, Eakin.  This coming season so far - Mitts, Cozens, R2.  As we saw Staal and Eakin were done as NHL players, while the 3 guys we have now are ascending and have upside.  Sure none of these guys are as dynamic a talent as Jack, but from a depth standpoint, I'll take the new group.

I don't think there are any questions about Mitts, Cozens and R2's talent.  The only real question is are they ready for the role they'll be given.  We won't know what they are until they are given a chance to play there.   Remember we pigeon holed Reinhart as a RW.  We found out to late that the replacement for ROR was already on the roster all along.  

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This happens every year.  People want guarantees. They don't exist. Skinner scored 40, must be signed to a long term deal yelled this board because he'll now score 40 every year playing with Jack.  Didn't happen.  Mitts is a bust yelled this board.  Now it's Mitts can't play 1C.  He did just fine as the 2C down the stretch and is the best option we have right now.  I also have zero worries about R2 as a C in the NHL.  Will he be over matched at times.  Probably, but his skill level will give him an advantage against many 3C's in the NHL.  Cozens is still a kid and we are force feeding him, but if anyone can be force feed a role I think he is the guy.  I actually don't think there is any question that Cozens will eventually be a very effective 2C.  Hopefully starting next year.  

For comparison purposes here is last years opening centers - Eichel, Staal, Eakin.  This coming season so far - Mitts, Cozens, R2.  As we saw Staal and Eakin were done as NHL players, while the 3 guys we have now are ascending and have upside.  Sure none of these guys are as dynamic a talent as Jack, but from a depth standpoint, I'll take the new group.

I don't think there are any questions about Mitts, Cozens and R2's talent.  The only real question is are they ready for the role they'll be given.  We won't know what they are until they are given a chance to play there.   Remember we pigeon holed Reinhart as a RW.  We found out to late that the replacement for ROR was already on the roster all along.  

I don't want guarantees dude I'm just saying: the group wasn't good last year, it's composition this offseason was weakened, and we are counting on growth to make up that ground, before we even start looking at what kind of improvement might be conceivable. 

If KA has assembled "3 capable scoring lines", he assuredly should not be fired - and there shouldn't be a thread about it. 

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This happens every year.  People want guarantees. They don't exist. Skinner scored 40, must be signed to a long term deal yelled this board because he'll now score 40 every year playing with Jack.  Didn't happen.  Mitts is a bust yelled this board.  Now it's Mitts can't play 1C.  He did just fine as the 2C down the stretch and is the best option we have right now.  I also have zero worries about R2 as a C in the NHL.  Will he be over matched at times.  Probably, but his skill level will give him an advantage against many 3C's in the NHL.  Cozens is still a kid and we are force feeding him, but if anyone can be force feed a role I think he is the guy.  I actually don't think there is any question that Cozens will eventually be a very effective 2C.  Hopefully starting next year.  

For comparison purposes here is last years opening centers - Eichel, Staal, Eakin.  This coming season so far - Mitts, Cozens, R2.  As we saw Staal and Eakin were done as NHL players, while the 3 guys we have now are ascending and have upside.  Sure none of these guys are as dynamic a talent as Jack, but from a depth standpoint, I'll take the new group.

I don't think there are any questions about Mitts, Cozens and R2's talent.  The only real question is are they ready for the role they'll be given.  We won't know what they are until they are given a chance to play there.   Remember we pigeon holed Reinhart as a RW.  We found out to late that the replacement for ROR was already on the roster all along.  

Also where is @nfreemanwith the "weak sauce" he's given me for slapping together viewpoints from different sources re: the bold?

I never said Mitts was a bust, I said he still projected as a 3rd line W. Me not thinking he can play 1C because he's never satisfactorily proven to me he's even a 2C (sample size does matter to me) doesn't have anything to do with others calling him a bust. I still think mid-6 winger is more likely LT for Casey than 2C, NM 1C. Love for them to happen. 

But I won't be convinced I should be comfortable with Casey freaking Mittelstadt as our 1C, to match up with the Bergerons and Matthews of the world over an 82 game skid, for next year. I like that thing @dudacek does: Mittelstadt has scored 61 NHL points in his career. Matches that over a course of a single season, this coming year? Ok, he a 1C. 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 hours ago, Thorny said:

Also where is @nfreemanwith the "weak sauce" he's given me for slapping together viewpoints from different sources re: the bold?

I never said Mitts was a bust, I said he still projected as a 3rd line W. Me not thinking he can play 1C because he's never satisfactorily proven to me he's even a 2C (sample size does matter to me) doesn't have anything to do with others calling him a bust. I still think mid-6 winger is more likely LT for Casey than 2C, NM 1C. Love for them to happen. 

But I won't be convinced I should be comfortable with Casey freaking Mittelstadt as our 1C, to match up with the Bergerons and Matthews of the world over an 82 game skid, for next year. I like that thing @dudacek does: Mittelstadt has scored 61 NHL points in his career. Matches that over a course of a single season, this coming year? Ok, he a 1C. 

 

It’s not a question of comfort. It’s a question of who do we have that most likely can do the job.  The 3 most talented healthy centers on the current roster are Mitts, Cozens and R2.  I don’t think that is debatable.  The question then is how do we allocate them to maximize the offense.  Under Granato last season Mitts as the 2C scored at a 60+ pt pace.  Who else on this roster played at that level?  

No one says this is a playoff contender.  The goal this season is continued development of young players.  Challenging these kids is part of that process.

Ask yourself are Cozens and R2 an upgrade over Staal and Eakin?

[Digger]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It’s not a question of comfort. It’s a question of who do we have that most likely can do the job.  The 3 most talented healthy centers on the current roster are Mitts, Cozens and R2.  I don’t think that is debatable.  The question then is how do we allocate them to maximize the offense.  Under Granato last season Mitts as the 2C scored at a 60+ pt pace.  Who else on this roster played at that level?  

No one says this is a playoff contender.  The goal this season is continued development of young players.  Challenging these kids is part of that process.

Ask yourself are Cozens and R2 an upgrade over Staal and Eakin?

I am hoping to see Arttu Ruotsalainen get a chance at center this season but I can see Asplund taking that spot too.  I would be happy to see them play together on the same line.

And yes Cozens and R2/Asplund are an upgrade over Staal and Eakin.

[GASabresIUFAN]

34 minutes ago, Digger said:

I am hoping to see Arttu Ruotsalainen get a chance at center this season but I can see Asplund taking that spot too.  I would be happy to see them play together on the same line.

And yes Cozens and R2/Asplund are an upgrade over Staal and Eakin.

The camp battles should be interesting.  I can honestly see both R2 and Asplund kept at wing to bolster the forward lines and that is where he played them last season, but I also think R2 should be given a legit shot at center. KA also signed centers Hayden and MacInnis.  

While the season could be very difficult.  It should be a very interesting camp to see who asserts themselves.  My guess is it's going to be a wide open camp for line combos, but with a few battles for depth positions like 4th line center.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

Any camp early positives and negatives?

I have a couple so far.  

I didn't like Cozens with Skinner and Olofsson.  I don't see a matching skill set.  I'm glad that Mitts is going to center them going forward.

I would like to see Skinner and Olofsson on different lines.

I'm glad that R2 is getting a shot at earning the 3C job.

If I had to guess right now, Murray is going to steal a job in the NHL out of camp ahead of guys like MacInnis and Hayden.

Edited September 27, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

It's been my experience that coaches start camp with their preferences, try a bunch of different combos over the next week or two, then revert pretty much to their original set-up with a tweak or two when the season started.

We'll see if Granato follows that pattern.

It looked to me like Cozens was trying to play a much more deliberate, thoughtful, traditional centre's game yesterday between those two. I think I'd rather see him pushing the pace, but he wasn't bad, just different. Agree with breaking up Skinner and VO.

Of the fringe guys, Hayden looks lacking in the skill and awareness department, but his big body and the edge he brought to the game were noticeable. Caggiula and Eakin looked a lot more savvy than most of the other guys chasing jobs. Murray looked like he had more tools than any of them and he might very well be in the mix.

Edited September 27, 2021 by dudacek

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

If I had to guess right now, Murray is going to steal a job in the NHL out of camp ahead of guys like MacInnis and Hayden.

I think he's done everything humanly possible to do so.  Not to mention he has physical traits the Sabres will need, and a few miles on him.  Even though he doesn't have NHL experience, he's been around a while.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think he's done everything humanly possible to do so.  Not to mention he has physical traits the Sabres will need, and a few miles on him.  Even though he doesn't have NHL experience, he's been around a while.

He got 2 games last year.  He is only 23.  Same draft class as Asplund.  It's time.

[dudacek]

I will also say that Asplund and Casey looked worse away from each other than they did together.

And Bjork did not look like a fit with Casey and Tage.

[GASabresIUFAN]

29 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I will also say that Asplund and Casey looked worse away from each other than they did together.

And Bjork did not look like a fit with Casey and Tage.

I don't think Cagguila or Bjork add anything to this roster but smallish cap hits.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't think Cagguila or Bjork add anything to this roster but smallish cap hits.

There was a reason Bjork was firmly on the 4th line in Beantown & it wasn't because he's a prototypical 4th liner.  Sabres needed to take cap back to make the trade work, but he & Lazar were the throw-ins.  Maybe he pans out.  More likely he's a journeyman but either way he's just a $ scratcher at the gas station.  Hoping they get lucky, but his wasn't the Win for Life ticket.  At best, when they have a full stable of F's again,  he's bottom 6 with the ability to bump up for short stints due to injuries.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Mitts, Cozens, R2, Eakin

Skinner, Asplund, Murray, Girgensons

Olofsson, Thompson, Hinostroza, KO

Here is a full roster with only one prospect (Murray) winning a job with no Caggiula or Bjork.  I don't see how either of these guys is an upgrade over the guys on my list.

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, Taro T said:

There was a reason Bjork was firmly on the 4th line in Beantown & it wasn't because he's a prototypical 4th liner.  Sabres needed to take cap back to make the trade work, but he & Lazar were the throw-ins. 

Actually you're wrong about that. He wasn't on the 4th line. They tried him on the top lines and he got some injury fill in time up there but worked his way out of favour quickly and wasn't even dressed later. Lazar on the other hand was 4th line for the balance of the season after they got him and they were pretty happy with him. Go figure. 

Having said that though, Lazar might not make the team this year as they have a few young guys they like and think are ready to step up full time. 

Bjork is fast, but nothing much else. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Mitts, Cozens, R2, Eakin

Skinner, Asplund, Murray, Girgensons

Olofsson, Thompson, Hinostroza, KO

Here is a full roster with only one prospect (Murray) winning a job with no Caggiula or Bjork.  I don't see how either of these guys is an upgrade over the guys on my list.

Why are you so forgiving of Eakin?

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Why are you so forgiving of Eakin?

 

I'm not, but as a 4th line center who can win draws and play PK, he has some use.  He is also the only proven faceoff guy on the roster.

Caggiula and Bjork are wingers and I'd rather play the 8 wingers I mentioned over either guy.  

[dudacek]

48 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm not, but as a 4th line center who can win draws and play PK, he has some use.  He is also the only proven faceoff guy on the roster.

Caggiula and Bjork are wingers and I'd rather play the 8 wingers I mentioned over either guy.  

Even 4 years removed from the position, Girgs is a better 4C than Eakin right now. Caggiula and Bjork are JAGs, but they are better players than Eakin who is not an NHLer, and better fits for the way Granato wants to play.

What does it matter if Eakin wins a draw but blows the breakout or scoring chance immediately afterwards?

Edited September 28, 2021 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Even 4 years removed from the position, Girgs is a better 4C than Eakin right now. Caggiula and Bjork are JAGs, but they are better players than Eakin who is not an NHLer, and better fits for the way Granato.

What does it matter if Eakin wins a draw but blows the breakout or scoring chance immediately afterwards?

I’m going to respectfully disagree.  I like Z, but he’s a winger.  We’ll see what DG does, but I think he’ll play Eakin over Z in the middle.

Edit:  I went and looked at DG’s scrimmage lines and he had Z between Caggiula and KO and Eakin with prospects. You may be right that DG intends Z as the 4C. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Asplund got a turn at C today, between Caggiula and Thompson.

Girgs still at C as well, now between Hinostroza and Bjork

[PerreaultForever]

51 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Asplund got a turn at C today, between Caggiula and Thompson.

Girgs still at C as well, now between Hinostroza and Bjork

Given the lack of centers on this team I think it makes sense for Girgs to play there. Don't see a better option. 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm not, but as a 4th line center who can win draws and play PK, he has some use.  He is also the only proven faceoff guy on the roster.

Caggiula and Bjork are wingers and I'd rather play the 8 wingers I mentioned over either guy.  

LMFAO

What a awful reason to include one of the leagues worst players on your roster. Seriously, most metrics grade Eakin out near the very bottom of the entire league but at least he wins... checks notes... faceoffs. Whooop dee dooo

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 forwards left in camp and almost nothing decided except the 1st line of Skinner Mitts Hinostroza

That leaves 10-11 slots up for grabs.

DG said Girgensons in his No 2 center right now and that Cozens could see time back at wing with Thompson seeing time at center.  Not sure that that works but Ok.  Routsalainen seems locked in a the No 3 center.  Not sure how anyone else gets allocated.

Skinner Mitts Hinostroza

?????? Girgensons ??????

??????  Routsalainen ??????

?????   ??????? ???????

Obviously Asplund, KO, VO, Cozens, Thompson and unfortunately Bjork are making this team.  That's 11 for 13/14 slots, but no idea how DG plans to allocate them.

That leaves 1 starting job and potentially 3 roster spots for Caggiula, AJF, Hayden, Eakin, plus prospects Murray, JJP and Quinn. If I were in charge I'd go with the kids.  Murray and JJP make this team sending Bjork and likely Caggiula to the bench.  However I'm not in charge.  That likely means all the kids get sent down and Caggiula and Eakin make the team.  If they are worried they'll lose Hayden or AJF if waived, I can see a 14th forward being kept.  

I hope Murray has done enough to make this team.  He is the one guy in camp who has truly earned the opportunity.  JJP's skill is undeniably but his back checking needs work likely meaning time in Rochester. 

[bob_sauve28]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

18 forwards left in camp and almost nothing decided except the 1st line of Skinner Mitts Hinostroza

That leaves 10-11 slots up for grabs.

DG said Girgensons in his No 2 center right now and that Cozens could see time back at wing with Thompson seeing time at center.  Not sure that that works but Ok.  Routsalainen seems locked in a the No 3 center.  Not sure how anyone else gets allocated.

Skinner Mitts Hinostroza

?????? Girgensons ??????

??????  Routsalainen ??????

?????   ??????? ???????

Obviously Asplund, KO, VO, Cozens, Thompson and unfortunately Bjork are making this team.  That's 11 for 13/14 slots, but no idea how DG plans to allocate them.

That leaves 1 starting job and potentially 3 roster spots for Caggiula, AJF, Hayden, Eakin, plus prospects Murray, JJP and Quinn. If I were in charge I'd go with the kids.  Murray and JJP make this team sending Bjork and likely Caggiula to the bench.  However I'm not in charge.  That likely means all the kids get sent down and Caggiula and Eakin make the team.  If they are worried they'll lose Hayden or AJF if waived, I can see a 14th forward being kept.  

I hope Murray has done enough to make this team.  He is the one guy in camp who has truly earned the opportunity.  JJP's skill is undeniably but his back checking needs work likely meaning time in Rochester. 

No love for Bjork? Nice goal the other night