Sabres Identity: Hardworking, Relentless with Speed.

[JohnC]

19 minutes ago, RETURNTOGLORY said:

I'm all over this new look team. Bust your ass, play at 100% and good things will come. I played in Europe for two years. We were short on talent BUT everyone of us gave 100% and you saw it night after night on the ice. We were a feared team because of all things, we had team speed! I coined a phrase with Coach Dickerson years ago on his WGR talk show " Speed Kills". He used it from that point forward. Trust me, any of you that played hockey and you have a forward or an entire line coming at you full speed, it's intimidating! I like what the GM is putting together here. And who knows, Jack may be a part of it 😉 .

I can appreciate your sentiments on giving full effort. In the NHL that is more of a given than not. However, success is mostly predicated on the level of talent as reflected in the NHL cup winner this year and most years. There are many reasons why the Sabres have struggled for the past half generation. Organizational and staffing turnover without question are contributing factors. But when all is said and done it comes down to talent and depth in the organization to fill in when needed. That's been the primary reason why the Sabres have struggled. 

I like you am encouraged with what the GM is doing. But make no mistake the franchise is going through a rebuilding process. If done smartly the process can to an extent be accelerated and the current product made to be more entertaining than a lot of the wretched hockey we have watched over the past number of years. Again, it's mostly about the talent. 

[RETURNTOGLORY]

31 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I can appreciate your sentiments on giving full effort. In the NHL that is more of a given than not. However, success is mostly predicated on the level of talent as reflected in the NHL cup winner this year and most years. There are many reasons why the Sabres have struggled for the past half generation. Organizational and staffing turnover without question are contributing factors. But when all is said and done it comes down to talent and depth in the organization to fill in when needed. That's been the primary reason why the Sabres have struggled. 

I like you am encouraged with what the GM is doing. But make no mistake the franchise is going through a rebuilding process. If done smartly the process can to an extent be accelerated and the current product made to be more entertaining than a lot of the wretched hockey we have watched over the past number of years. Again, it's mostly about the talent. 

I know this. Talent is the main ingredient for success. I'm more so looking for the recipe right now for us to keep watching Sabres Hockey. For me, youth and speed are key ingredients 😉

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, RETURNTOGLORY said:

I know this. Talent is the main ingredient for success. I'm more so looking for the recipe right now for us to keep watching Sabres Hockey. For me, youth and speed are key ingredients 😉

Get some presentable goaltending added to the recipe, as you put it, and this team, shorthanded as it is, will be more entertaining. 🙂

[RETURNTOGLORY]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Get some presentable goaltending added to the recipe, as you put it, and this team, shorthanded as it is, will be more entertaining. 🙂

Agreed. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, RETURNTOGLORY said:

Agreed. 

Addressing the issue of playing a more entertaining brand of hockey let's not forget that last year it didn't take long for their style of play to change from a slogging style of play under Krueger to a faster paced and north/south style of play under Granato. (Which you noted in your post.) Even when the Sabres lost and were overmatched talent-wise they were noticeably more entertaining after the coaching change. 

Last year I literally stopped watching the Sabres. After the coaching change I was pleasantly surprised with how the team responded. It was as if it was liberated from the restrictions of the prior suffocating system. 

[Doohickie]

On 8/5/2021 at 9:43 AM, LGR4GM said:

Since November 12th 2011, the Sabres have truly lacked any type of real identity. Both in who they project themselves to be and who they are on the ice. Many of us have complained for years that this team lacked heart. It appears that there is an identity that at least management has in mind. We have heard this elsewhere and we can make jokes about "players wanting to be here" but there is a clear focus after this draft and how they have approached UFA. They are focusing on hard work, relentless attacking with speed. Now a lot of teams want these qualities but I will be curious to see if the Sabres follow through and acquire players that personify this. Their draft gives us some what of an indication that they do indeed have a player type. Peterka, Quinn, Poltapov, Rosen, and even Kisakov are all fast players who have notable work ethics on the ice. 

Anyways it is summer and I found this quote interesting from Hinostroza since he spoke with Granato so long and this was the take away. 

So it took Granato a mere 20 games to change the Sabres' reputation.  Does anyone else see that as a good thing going forward?

[Weave]

26 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

So it took Granato a mere 20 games to change the Sabres' reputation.  Does anyone else see that as a good thing going forward?

I don’t buy it.  Not yet.  Taylor Hall was excited to come play for RK.

[pi2000]

57 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

So it took Granato a mere 20 games to change the Sabres' reputation.  Does anyone else see that as a good thing going forward?

It's an illusion.   They were 9-16-3 under Granato... thats uhh, not good.

[klos1963]

5 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's an illusion.   They were 9-16-3 under Granato... thats uhh, not good.

I know this a little bit of cherry picking, but I think it's legit. I think we lost his first 5 or 6 games. Once they got some time under their belts with the new system, they were a .500 team and very entertaining to watch. I think that's why Granato got the full time gig. There's reason to feel good about the new coach, but we are still lacking in talent to compete over a full 82 games.

[Doohickie]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's an illusion.   They were 9-16-3 under Granato... thats uhh, not good.

Yes I know they didn't win much.  Take away the end of the losing streak and they were a much more respectable 9-10-3.  Still not good enough but they were playing much better hockey.  Donny Meatballs admitted that he didn't address the defense, only the offense. Give him a fully training camp and a month playing real games and we can talk again.

But he did have them playing a better brand of hockey.

[JohnC]

43 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's an illusion.   They were 9-16-3 under Granato... thats uhh, not good.

Despite the fact that he didn't have much practice time to institute his style of play you can't deny that under him the play of the team was immensely better. And you have to factor in the fact that there was a concerted effort to play the young players in the system. And it should be noted that with Ullmark in goal before he got hurt this team did get some wins. Considering the challenging circumstances the record under Granato doesn't come close to illustrating how good a job he did with the players he had to work with. 

[Gatorman0519]

There is no denying the team looked 10x better under The Don...and he had no practices (enough time to put in and teach his system/vision) and lots of key injuries, including no true NHL starting goaltender.

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

It's an illusion.   They were 9-16-3 under Granato... thats uhh, not good.

I concur with all the retorts to this statement.

 

I wouldn’t say it was any illusion; the number of situations Granato had to deal with can’t be discounted. We certainly didn’t magically become a Stanley Cup caliber team in those 20 games but they actually looked like an NHL team. And that was with Reinhart playing 1C after having not played center for at least 2 to 3 years. No Eichel. Only briefly having Ullmark and primarily having to use a guy who hadn’t won an NHL game in 6 years, and ECHL goalie who hadn’t played in a year, a mediocre prospect in Johansson and UPL for like 3 games. 

Not to mention we were playing almost exclusively playoff teams that had reasons to win in a condensed schedule.

Those are the legitimate excuses that should hold at least some value. Pi, were you somehow expecting any coach to go 20-0-0 in those circumstances? Scotty Bowman certainly couldn’t have even in his prime. Granato had to MacGyver a roster together with almost zero practice time at his disposal.

 

This year, for Granato to be successful we need 3 Things:

1. Player Growth - concrete statistical/analytical/eye test-able improvement from the youngsters. If Mitts and Thompson continue to grow and Dahlin bounces back to his pre-Krueger level and then some I will be very happy regardless of the record.

2. Team Growth - I want to see the team play and behave as a solid unit all pushing to the same goal. When a guy gets boarded, players go to defend their teammate regardless of who’s on the ice or the victim. When things look flat, someone plays a great shift, fights someone, does something to re-rally the bench. I want every player to do their part and to help push their teammates to do better.

3. Show record improvement as the year goes on. Rather self explanatory, I want to be able to watch game 80 and see a better team than in game 5. If they go 5-12-3 in the first 20, I want to see10-8-2 in the final 20. 

If Granato can pull those three off; I’ll deem the year a success regardless of draft position or overall standings. 

 

 

[Doohickie]

14 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I concur with all the retorts to this statement.

 

I wouldn’t say it was any illusion; the number of situations Granato had to deal with can’t be discounted. We certainly didn’t magically become a Stanley Cup caliber team in those 20 games but they actually looked like an NHL team. And that was with Reinhart playing 1C after having not played center for at least 2 to 3 years. No Eichel. Only briefly having Ullmark and primarily having to use a guy who hadn’t won an NHL game in 6 years, and ECHL goalie who hadn’t played in a year, a mediocre prospect in Johansson and UPL for like 3 games. 

Not to mention we were playing almost exclusively playoff teams that had reasons to win in a condensed schedule.

Those are the legitimate excuses that should hold at least some value. Pi, were you somehow expecting any coach to go 20-0-0 in those circumstances? Scotty Bowman certainly couldn’t have even in his prime. Granato had to MacGyver a roster together with almost zero practice time at his disposal.

 

This year, for Granato to be successful we need 3 Things:

1. Player Growth - concrete statistical/analytical/eye test-able improvement from the youngsters. If Mitts and Thompson continue to grow and Dahlin bounces back to his pre-Krueger level and then some I will be very happy regardless of the record.

2. Team Growth - I want to see the team play and behave as a solid unit all pushing to the same goal. When a guy gets boarded, players go to defend their teammate regardless of who’s on the ice or the victim. When things look flat, someone plays a great shift, fights someone, does something to re-rally the bench. I want every player to do their part and to help push their teammates to do better.

3. Show record improvement as the year goes on. Rather self explanatory, I want to be able to watch game 80 and see a better team than in game 5. If they go 5-12-3 in the first 20, I want to see10-8-2 in the final 20. 

If Granato can pull those three off; I’ll deem the year a success regardless of draft position or overall standings.

Yes, this.  All of it.

[dudacek]

After losing its first 6 under Granato, the team went 9/11/2 to finish the season.

However that 9/11/2 became 5/10/1 without Ullmark, who they haven’t replaced.

And it has also dumped its first-line centre and its #2D without adding anything of significance to replace them.

Barring further significant additions, if he guides this team to more than 65 points next year, Granato should win the Jack Adams.

 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

After losing its first 6 under Granato, the team went 9/11/2 to finish the season.

However that 9/11/2 became 5/10/1 without Ullmark, who they haven’t replaced.

And it has also dumped its first-line centre and its #2D without adding anything of significance to replace them.

Barring further significant additions, if he guides this team to more than 65 points next year, Granato should win the Jack Adams.

 

 

Who was that? McCabe was injured and Borgen barely played.

[I-90 W]

I miss the days of Pat Kaleta. There wasn’t a shot he wouldn’t block and boy did he lay down the hammer on people. That man left it all on the ice. He “got it”, and wearing that crest meant something to him. Players like that are contagious, and I think it rubs off on to the skilled players eventually too. 

[dudacek]

26 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

 

Who was that? McCabe was injured and Borgen barely played.

Ristolainen. If you want to argue #2 it was used factually, in the sense that over that stretch I was citing he was 2nd in ice time.

As you say, McCabe was injured and Borgen contributed a handful of games on the 3rd pairing to the Granato version of the team.

Edited August 8, 2021 by dudacek

[PromoTheRobot]

10 hours ago, JohnC said:

Despite the fact that he didn't have much practice time to institute his style of play you can't deny that under him the play of the team was immensely better. And you have to factor in the fact that there was a concerted effort to play the young players in the system. And it should be noted that with Ullmark in goal before he got hurt this team did get some wins. Considering the challenging circumstances the record under Granato doesn't come close to illustrating how good a job he did with the players he had to work with. 

With all due respect to @pi2000, to quote wins and losses as a measure of Granato without taking the multiple challenges involved he faced into account is a bit disingenuous. The eye test, which we are so fond of, made it obvious things were changing.

As the Sabres stand right now, we might not win a lot of games but I would consider not finishing in the bottom 10 and being a tough win for opponents a good first year.

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, I-90 W said:

I miss the days of Pat Kaleta. There wasn’t a shot he wouldn’t block and boy did he lay down the hammer on people. That man left it all on the ice. He “got it”, and wearing that crest meant something to him. Players like that are contagious, and I think it rubs off on to the skilled players eventually too. 

I don't miss the days of Kaleta. Those days are long gone. Pat Kaleta was an earnest player who gave everything he had. In reality he was essentially a career AHL talent who was playing at a level he wasn't qualified for. I don't want any Kaleta caliber talents on this team. That's not a solution to anything. I don't expect the roster to be loaded with all-stars or all finesse players. What I expect is NHL players who are capable of playing at a NHL level and fulfilling their roles, even if it is a limited role. The Andrew Peters and Pat Kaleta type of  players whose sole purpose was to create a raucous represent an era that is outdated. Thank god that dinosaur era no longer exists. Having that type of designated pugilistic player isn't the same as having a tough and grinding player on the roster.  It simply is a waste of a roster spot. 

[postseasonblues]

 You got to sell something.

[JohnC]

13 hours ago, Weave said:

I don’t buy it.  Not yet.  Taylor Hall was excited to come play for RK.

Taylor Hall signed with the Sabres mostly because he got the rich one year deal that would allow him to be an UFA the next year. It was the best contract he could get under the circumstances that would in the not too distant future provide him with options. Hall previously played for Krueger so I'm sure that prior relationship was a factor. But it didn't take him too long to want to be liberated. And it was evident by his play. My point is coming to Buffalo was the right/best business decision for him at the time. The Krueger factor was a factor but not as much as some believe it to be. 

[Weave]

30 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Taylor Hall signed with the Sabres mostly because he got the rich one year deal that would allow him to be an UFA the next year. It was the best contract he could get under the circumstances that would in the not too distant future provide him with options. Hall previously played for Krueger so I'm sure that prior relationship was a factor. But it didn't take him too long to want to be liberated. And it was evident by his play. My point is coming to Buffalo was the right/best business decision for him at the time. The Krueger factor was a factor but not as much as some believe it to be. 

Hall said himself it was a huge factor.  And I am sure it was right up until he realized this team was not winning anything.  And it will be the same for Hinostra as well.  And that is my only point.

[JohnC]

45 minutes ago, Weave said:

Hall said himself it was a huge factor.  And I am sure it was right up until he realized this team was not winning anything.  And it will be the same for Hinostra as well.  And that is my only point.

Hall was being polite and not forthright. That's what you do when being introduced to the new market. I disagree with you about Hinostra's future attitude. He knows exactly what he is getting into. He's well aware that compared with the teams he has recently played for he will be given more opportunity to play. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by JohnC

[Weave]

47 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Hall was being polite and not forthright. That's what you do when being introduced to the new market. I disagree with you about Hinostra's future attitude. He knows exactly what he is getting into. He's well aware that compared with the teams he has recently played for he will be given more opportunity to play. 

How is Hall’s situation really any different than Hinostras?  Why would Hall be inclined towards polite and disingenuous and Hinostra not have the same motivation to do the same?  They both took the best money they could at the time.  Yes, Hinostra maybe gets opportunity here that he wouldn’t elsewhere, but at the end of the day both were supposedly wooed by coach-speak.

Lets see if he’s still motivated when there is nothing to play for in November.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Weave