Could the Sabres be for sale?

[PASabreFan]

6 minutes ago, Xzy89c said:

they are absolutely trying to sell.  They have lost 300 million since buying Sabres.  Open secret in NHL.  big question is who would buy them.  Scary answer might be no one, and Buffalo cannot support an NHL team financially.  Only reason Bills are still here is due to league revenue sharing...

How much has the asset appreciated?

[SwampD]

41 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

How much has the asset appreciated?

They paid $165 MM. Now worth $385 MM.

There is no way they have lost $300 milion.

Well, actually, if you add up all the coaches and GMs they had to pay for years after they left, it might be around that.

[Zamboni]

7 minutes ago, SwampD said:

They paid $165 MM. Now worth $385 MM.

There is no way they have lost $300 milion.

Well, actually, if you add up all the coaches and GMs they had to pay for years after they left, it might be around that.

On Feb. 1st 2011, the AP said this …

 

“The Buffalo News reported the agreement, which is subject to league approval, includes $175 million US for the Sabres and an additional $14 million in liabilities.”

 

I mean the numbers are close, but I wonder why the discrepancy. Weird.

 

someone’s reporting isn’t accurate  😂

[SwampD]

4 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

On Feb. 1st 2011, the AP said this …

 

“The Buffalo News reported the agreement, which is subject to league approval, includes $175 million US for the Sabres and an additional $14 million in liabilities.”

 

I mean the numbers are close, but I wonder why the discrepancy. Weird.

 

someone’s reporting isn’t accurate  😂

I thought I had remembered $175 MM, as well, but the Forbes page has it listen as $165 MM.

[PromoTheRobot]

I guess we gossiped about this enough for it to be true. 

[Torpedo Forecheck]

8 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I guess we gossiped about this enough for it to be true. 

Is Zach Ertz part of the deal?

SMH

 

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

TG had his many problems as owner but one certain truth is that he truly went out of his way to keep the Sabres in Buffalo for, for all normal circumstances, forever. 

This is very, very far from certain.

 

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

How much has the asset appreciated?

 

35 minutes ago, SwampD said:

They paid $165 MM. Now worth $385 MM.

There is no way they have lost $300 milion.

Well, actually, if you add up all the coaches and GMs they had to pay for years after they left, it might be around that.

This may be reported in Forbes or somewhere similar, but TP almost certainly wouldn't get this number if he were to sell now.

I can't speak for @Xzy89c, but I would assume the $300MM is just total cash burn and doesn't include changes in the value of the team.

 

[Xzy89c]

Pegulas have lost 300 million in cash in 10 years...  they would sell tomorrow if someone offered 385.  Forbes is wrong every time the try sports valuations.  I hate to even say it on this board, but Sabres to Southern Ontario makes most sense to the league.  The amount of people, money and companies in Southern Ontario dwarfs Buffalo and Western New York.  Over a million people just counting Hamilton and London.  The area is growing while Buffalo is one of the poorest cities in the country and shrinking rapidly in comparison.

[sabrefanday1]

1 minute ago, Xzy89c said:

Pegulas have lost 300 million in cash in 10 years...  they would sell tomorrow if someone offered 385.  Forbes is wrong every time the try sports valuations.  I hate to even say it on this board, but Sabres to Southern Ontario makes most sense to the league.  The amount of people, money and companies in Southern Ontario dwarfs Buffalo and Western New York.  Over a million people just counting Hamilton and London.  The area is growing while Buffalo is one of the poorest cities in the country and shrinking rapidly in comparison.

totally 100% accurate. Anybody wishing the Pegula's sell should be careful what they wish for...new owners will look to move team no doubt. Just as Quebec lost their team and now regret that and are trying desperately to get another team, Buffalo may be in the same spot if Pegula's sell. Once a team has left it is hard to get another approval for a new franchise. Be thankful the Pegula's seem to love Buffalo and have no intention of moving wither team.

[PromoTheRobot]

8 minutes ago, Xzy89c said:

Pegulas have lost 300 million in cash in 10 years...  they would sell tomorrow if someone offered 385.  Forbes is wrong every time the try sports valuations.  I hate to even say it on this board, but Sabres to Southern Ontario makes most sense to the league.  The amount of people, money and companies in Southern Ontario dwarfs Buffalo and Western New York.  Over a million people just counting Hamilton and London.  The area is growing while Buffalo is one of the poorest cities in the country and shrinking rapidly in comparison.

Jim Balsille is still interested.

4 minutes ago, sabrefanday1 said:

totally 100% accurate. Anybody wishing the Pegula's sell should be careful what they wish for...new owners will look to move team no doubt. Just as Quebec lost their team and now regret that and are trying desperately to get another team, Buffalo may be in the same spot if Pegula's sell. Once a team has left it is hard to get another approval for a new franchise. Be thankful the Pegula's seem to love Buffalo and have no intention of moving wither team.

No sports league will come back to Buffalo. Lose the Sabres (or Bills) and that's all she wrote.

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

This is very, very far from certain.

He turned down tens of millions of dollars to sell to Pegula, and he put into the sales agreement a no-move clause. What more do you want to see? Meanwhile you assume a $300 million figure pulled out of someone's butt is accurate.

OK.

[nfreeman]

4 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

He turned down tens of millions of dollars to sell to Pegula, and he put into the sales agreement a no-move clause. What more do you want to see? Meanwhile you assume a $300 million figure pulled out of someone's butt is accurate.

OK.

 

We've been over this before.  There is zero evidence in support of either of the statements in the bolded sentence, both of which arise from self-serving statements made by TG and LQ, and a million years' worth of reality justifying skepticism.  The NHL almost certainly would've prohibited a buyer from moving the Sabres, so the "turned down a better offer" point is really "turned down an offer for a better deal that would never have closed".  And the no-move clause almost certainly includes loopholes based on financial thresholds, which the Sabres almost certainly are going to fail to meet next year.  Until the agreement, or at least the no-move clause, is published, it can't be taken seriously.

And did you see me say anything about the accuracy of the $300MM number?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

58 minutes ago, Xzy89c said:

Pegulas have lost 300 million in cash in 10 years...  they would sell tomorrow if someone offered 385.  Forbes is wrong every time the try sports valuations.  I hate to even say it on this board, but Sabres to Southern Ontario makes most sense to the league.  The amount of people, money and companies in Southern Ontario dwarfs Buffalo and Western New York.  Over a million people just counting Hamilton and London.  The area is growing while Buffalo is one of the poorest cities in the country and shrinking rapidly in comparison.

The Leafs would never allow Southern Ontario.

[Thwomp!]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I guess we gossiped about this enough for it to be true. 

Or the Pegulas sucked so much and killed this franchise so thoroughly and/or they finally realized they're in over their heads.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Thwomp! said:

Or the Pegulas sucked so much and killed this franchise so thoroughly and/or they finally realized they're in over their heads.

We all have dreams, don't we?

[SwampD]

Buffalo metro area is not one of the poorest in the country.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

The Leafs would never allow Southern Ontario.

Outright move-in? Sure. But grease the skids with a few hundred-mil? If the New York Metro can host 3 NHL teams, there's no reason GTO can't handle two. 

But even if you leave Toronto out of it, there are markets that want an NHL team and the Sabres would be worth double in any of them. One city that doesn't get talked about much is Houston. #4 US market and a history of good support for the minor league Aeros. You know Quebec City is dying for a team. Maybe Hartford again? Kansas City has a new arena. The point is never take having the Sabres or Bills in Buffalo for granted. The vultures never stop circling.

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

Buffalo metro area is not one of the poorest in the country.

What market with a major league franchise is lower than us? I can't think of one.

[North Buffalo]

8 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Outright move-in? Sure. But grease the skids with a few hundred-mil? If the New York Metro can host 3 NHL teams, there's no reason GTO can't handle two. 

But even if you leave Toronto out of it, there are markets that want an NHL team and the Sabres would be worth double in any of them. One city that doesn't get talked about much is Houston. #4 US market and a history of good support for the minor league Aeros. You know Quebec City is dying for a team. Maybe Hartford again? Kansas City has a new arena. The point is never take having the Sabres or Bills in Buffalo for granted. The vultures never stop circling.

What market with a major league franchise is lower than us? I can't think of one.

Greenbay... see that was easy

[SwampD]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Outright move-in? Sure. But grease the skids with a few hundred-mil? If the New York Metro can host 3 NHL teams, there's no reason GTO can't handle two. 

But even if you leave Toronto out of it, there are markets that want an NHL team and the Sabres would be worth double in any of them. One city that doesn't get talked about much is Houston. #4 US market and a history of good support for the minor league Aeros. You know Quebec City is dying for a team. Maybe Hartford again? Kansas City has a new arena. The point is never take having the Sabres or Bills in Buffalo for granted. The vultures never stop circling.

What market with a major league franchise is lower than us? I can't think of one.

That's a different question. I think the question should be what market has the wealth and population to support the Sabres more than Buffalo should they leave. The only one that makes sense to me is a second team in Toronto. And I don't see that happenning.

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

We've been over this before.  There is zero evidence in support of either of the statements in the bolded sentence, both of which arise from self-serving statements made by TG and LQ, and a million years' worth of reality justifying skepticism.  The NHL almost certainly would've prohibited a buyer from moving the Sabres, so the "turned down a better offer" point is really "turned down an offer for a better deal that would never have closed".  And the no-move clause almost certainly includes loopholes based on financial thresholds, which the Sabres almost certainly are going to fail to meet next year.  Until the agreement, or at least the no-move clause, is published, it can't be taken seriously.

And did you see me say anything about the accuracy of the $300MM number?

BTG turned down an offer from Balsilie that was in excess of $200M.  I have it from a personal source and three other sources.  I am 100% certain.

[Marvin]

35 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Buffalo metro area is not one of the poorest in the country.

Buffalo fights above its weight class in several things.  Pizzerias, the arts, and hockey fan support are three of them.  Per capita, the metro area is quite poor, though, and has been declining with the rest of upstate for decades.

[nfreeman]

30 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

BTG turned down an offer from Balsilie that was in excess of $200M.  I have it from a personal source and three other sources.  I am 100% certain.

I don't doubt you, but again -- he turned down an offer for a deal that the NHL almost certainly would not have approved.  They weren't going to approve a deal that moved the Sabres and they absolutely weren't going to approve a sale to Balsillie.  So I don't think it was any great noble gesture by TG, since there was no sacrifice.  Just the opposite, in fact -- he claimed credit for not doing something he wasn't going to be allowed to do anyway.

[JohnC]

35 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I don't doubt you, but again -- he turned down an offer for a deal that the NHL almost certainly would not have approved.  They weren't going to approve a deal that moved the Sabres and they absolutely weren't going to approve a sale to Balsillie.  So I don't think it was any great noble gesture by TG, since there was no sacrifice.  Just the opposite, in fact -- he claimed credit for not doing something he wasn't going to be allowed to do anyway.

I don't doubt that TG had higher offers to buy the team. He said that. But whether he would have been allowed to do it under a commissioner who was determined to keep the franchise in Buffalo is another matter, as you point out. 

Tom Golisano bought a team whose finances were very entangled and an indecipherable mess. In relatively short order he cleaned up the books and put the organization on a strict budget. Not only did he put the finances in order he paid vendors what they were due although he wasn't obligated to do so because of the bankruptcy rules.  That was the right thing to do and the honorable thing to do that a lot of business people would not have done so after purchasing an enterprise in bankruptcy. The end result is that TG sold the restored franchise to the Pegulas and walked away with a tidy profit. Good for him. As a hockey fan I very much appreciated how he handled his hockey business, a sport that he had little interest in.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Jim Balsille is still interested.

No sports league will come back to Buffalo. Lose the Sabres (or Bills) and that's all she wrote.

Balsillie is pretty broke, as he has given away much (he was worth about $700 million at the height of his wealth) in charitable work.  I don't think he would be able to come with the financial backing.

Edited July 20, 2021 by New Scotland (NS)

[LabattBlue]

5 hours ago, Xzy89c said:

Pegulas have lost 300 million in cash in 10 years...  they would sell tomorrow if someone offered 385.  Forbes is wrong every time the try sports valuations.  I hate to even say it on this board, but Sabres to Southern Ontario makes most sense to the league.  The amount of people, money and companies in Southern Ontario dwarfs Buffalo and Western New York.  Over a million people just counting Hamilton and London.  The area is growing while Buffalo is one of the poorest cities in the country and shrinking rapidly in comparison.

Link?  I have trouble believing the Sabres have lost on average 30 mil per year.