Inside Look into the Past Year of the Sabres Front Office

[Thorny]

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

At first under the Pegulas the Bills weren't very well run. They are now. If the owners learn the right lessons from their turbulent Bills' experience just maybe they can change their course of action with the Sabres. 

Hypocrite to what? 

He said he only wants to build around players who want to be here. He's mentioned it incessantly in regards to Eichel. Ham-handed, even. We know for a fact Risto doesn't want to be here - if he stays, I will literally never trust or credit Kevyn Adams for anything. 

And that's not even getting into the ridiculous talent evaluation. Get Risto off this team. 

[JohnC]

Just now, Thorny said:

He said he only wants to build around players who want to be here. He's mentioned it incessantly in regards to Eichel. Ham-handed, even. We know for a fact Risto doesn't want to be here - if he stays, I will literally never trust or credit Kevyn Adams for anything. 

Risto isn't demanding to get out. He basically told the organization that he is comfortable with whatever they do. If the GM believes that it is in the best interest of the team to keep him for now then that is what he should do. If the GM doesn't feel that his value will diminish if he is traded at a late time then what's the problem if he is kept or moved at a later time.

When all GMs talk about their roster they are not making absolute public statements because that isn't how communications are done at that level. It's not unusual that public comments don't match private comments with other organizations.   

[LGR4GM]

Just now, JohnC said:

Risto isn't demanding to get out. He basically told the organization that he is comfortable with whatever they do. If the GM believes that it is in the best interest of the team to keep him for now then that is what he should do. If the GM doesn't feel that his value will diminish if he is traded at a late time then what's the problem if he is kept or moved at a later time.

When all GMs talk about their roster they are not making absolute public statements because that isn't how communications are done at that level. It's not unusual that public comments don't match private comments with other organizations.   

Sam Reinhart has not publicly demanded out then. Risto has at least indicated he doesn't care if he stays. Reinhart, very quiet publicly with that. 

We actually have rumors that Reinhart is willing to stay. 

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Risto isn't demanding to get out. He basically told the organization that he is comfortable with whatever they do. If the GM believes that it is in the best interest of the team to keep him for now then that is what he should do. If the GM doesn't feel that his value will diminish if he is traded at a late time then what's the problem if he is kept or moved at a later time.

When all GMs talk about their roster they are not making absolute public statements because that isn't how communications are done at that level. It's not unusual that public comments don't match private comments with other organizations.   

He said he's fine with being traded. That's not a player that says he WANTS to be here. KA did not say "players who are OK with being here". He said WANT to. Risto has said significantly more specifically than Jack in terms of wanting a change of scenery. 

Stop carrying weight for KA

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Sam Reinhart has not publicly demanded out then. Risto has at least indicated he doesn't care if he stays. Reinhart, very quiet publicly with that. 

We actually have rumors that Reinhart is willing to stay. 

You have missed my point on these players. I have repeatedly said that I would love to keep Reinhart. But the issue with him revolves around his contract. If he is not willing to negotiate an extended deal (and soon) then it would make sense to move him. And right now because of his excellent season his value is very high. With Risto my belief is that his value is not very much diminished whether he is moved this offseason or at the next trade deadline. 

[Wyldnwoody44]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

What can I say? The coffee and sugar haven't kicked in yet.

You're missing the secret Ingredient

[LGR4GM]

39 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You have missed my point on these players. I have repeatedly said that I would love to keep Reinhart. But the issue with him revolves around his contract. If he is not willing to negotiate an extended deal (and soon) then it would make sense to move him. And right now because of his excellent season his value is very high. With Risto my belief is that his value is not very much diminished whether he is moved this offseason or at the next trade deadline. 

I think Risto is worth less at the deadline.

[inkman]

I glossed through the thread and I didn’t see (my apologies if I just missed it) what I took as the biggest WTF from the article:

Though Terry Pegula has a reputation for interfering with the club's decision-making, his only maneuver to be included in hockey operations that spring came in April when, according to sources, Pegula requested the scouting staff brief him via a 30-minute conference call on the Sabres’ top 50 prospect rankings ahead of the draft. 
 

Is Lance intimating that Terry Pegula has input on draft picks.  ***** Yikes.  Now the selection of Jack Quinn makes a lot more sense.  Is this why we have ended up with all these World Juniors all stars.  Because uncle Terry saw them dazzle against a bunch of kids.  Oh boy. 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I have a different take on the Risto compared to the Jack and Samson situation. With Jack and Samson this offseason is the time to get the biggest return for them. Samson because of his contract leverage and Jack for a variety of reasons that have been well chronicled. With Risto I think he can hold his value if he remained on the roster and then dealt at the trade deadline if that was the direction the organization wanted to go. 

I have a minority view on Risto. My belief is that If used differently as a 2b defenseman where his game is simplified then his talents can be maximized. I believe that airing him with McCabe would be a good complementing pairing. 

 

This is what is so ####ing frustrating about this off-season, expecting everything to blow up.

Bring McCabe back and keep him paired with Ristolainen (after he finally heals up).  That was their best pairing last year.  (Realize it's not a popular opinion, but they were.  For large stretched Dahkin - Jokiharju was a disaster in waiting in their own end.)Bring in a 4 quality D to fill McCabe role until he's ready to return.  

The D becomes

McCabe - Ristolainen

Dahlin- Borgen

Bryson/Samuelson/New Guy - Jokiharju. (Maybe "new guy" is Pilut?) w/ 2 of those the 7&8 after McCabe healthy.

 

Bring in Daneault and keep Eichel & Reinhart.  Ideally bring in a 4C to put Eakin on the bench.  Bring Sheahan back as the 13th guy / fill in w/ injuries in the bottom 1/2 of the lineup.

The forwards become:

Olofsson - Eichel - Cozens/Reinhart

Skinner - Daneault - Reinhart/ Cozens

Asplund - Mittelstadt - Thompson/ Ruotsalainen

Girgensons - 4C - Okposo

Some combo of Eakin / Sheahan / R2 / Okposo as the spares.

 

Bring back Ullmark & add a guy at least as good as him.

 

Get the coach right & it gets them d*mn close to a playoff spot w/ no growth at all from any of the kids.  (IMHO, that lineup should be in but it's a stacked division, so no promises.) And that lineup can handle the inevitable 6-10 games of Eichel out via injury & 10 games of Ullmark's inavailability, as a in IMHO.

 

[Marvin]

11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

This is what is so ####ing frustrating about this off-season, expecting everything to blow up.

Bring McCabe back and keep him paired with Ristolainen (after he finally heals up).  That was their best pairing last year.  (Realize it's not a popular opinion, but they were.  For large stretched Dahkin - Jokiharju was a disaster in waiting in their own end.)Bring in a 4 quality D to fill McCabe role until he's ready to return.  

The D becomes

McCabe - Ristolainen

Dahlin- Borgen

Bryson/Samuelson/New Guy - Jokiharju. (Maybe "new guy" is Pilut?) w/ 2 of those the 7&8 after McCabe healthy.

 

Bring in Daneault and keep Eichel & Reinhart.  Ideally bring in a 4C to put Eakin on the bench.  Bring Sheahan back as the 13th guy / fill in w/ injuries in the bottom 1/2 of the lineup.

The forwards become:

Olofsson - Eichel - Cozens/Reinhart

Skinner - Daneault - Reinhart/ Cozens

Asplund - Mittelstadt - Thompson/ Ruotsalainen

Girgensons - 4C - Okposo

Some combo of Eakin / Sheahan / R2 / Okposo as the spares.

 

Bring back Ullmark & add a guy at least as good as him.

 

Get the coach right & it gets them d*mn close to a playoff spot w/ no growth at all from any of the kids.  (IMHO, that lineup should be in but it's a stacked division, so no promises.) And that lineup can handle the inevitable 6-10 games of Eichel out via injury & 10 games of Ullmark's inavailability, as a in IMHO.

Point of fact: McCabe is not due back before December.  Having said that, McCabe-Ristolainen looked like the pair we wanted them to be a few years ago early on this season -- but that was in a system which neutered Dahlin and Jokiharu.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Point of fact: McCabe is not due back before December.  Having said that, McCabe-Ristolainen looked like the pair we wanted them to be a few years ago early on this season -- but that was in a system which neutered Dahlin and Jokiharu.

Even when they weren't "neutered" Dahlin-Jokiharju was not good in their own end.  They were very good at the other end, and many seem to be ok with their play in their own end because of how the played in the attack zone.

Personally, would rather have Borgen with Dahlin as the slight drop off which MIGHT occur in Dahlin's offensive escapades is more than made up for by no longer being a defensive liability.  And really don't see where Jokiharju was a key for Dahlin being good in the offensive zone; but he definitely contributed to the issues at the other end.

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

I glossed through the thread and I didn’t see (my apologies if I just missed it) what I took as the biggest WTF from the article:

Though Terry Pegula has a reputation for interfering with the club's decision-making, his only maneuver to be included in hockey operations that spring came in April when, according to sources, Pegula requested the scouting staff brief him via a 30-minute conference call on the Sabres’ top 50 prospect rankings ahead of the draft. 
 

Is Lance intimating that Terry Pegula has input on draft picks.  ***** Yikes.  Now the selection of Jack Quinn makes a lot more sense.  Is this why we have ended up with all these World Juniors all stars.  Because uncle Terry saw them dazzle against a bunch of kids.  Oh boy. 

My take is that TPEGS wanted to see what he was paying for versus what he got by reading some googled article.

[Marvin]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Even when they weren't "neutered" Dahlin-Jokiharju was not good in their own end.  They were very good at the other end, and many seem to be ok with their play in their own end because of how the played in the attack zone.

Personally, would rather have Borgen with Dahlin as the slight drop off which MIGHT occur in Dahlin's offensive escapades is more than made up for by no longer being a defensive liability.  And really don't see where Jokiharju was a key for Dahlin being good in the offensive zone; but he definitely contributed to the issues at the other end.

I thought that XHCRK really inhibited their offencive games.  As you point out, even on their best days, their defencive games remind me more of Phil Housley than Bill Hajt.

I personally want GMKA to find each of them a different sage defencive partner who can teach them how to improve their games.  I can live with Borgen and Bryson as my 3rd pair.  If we are going with two pairs of youngsters (not my preference), the pairs we should try are Dahlin-Borgen and Bryson-Jokiharu.

 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, tom webster said:

My take is that TPEGS wanted to see what he was paying for versus what he got by reading some googled article.

The bizarre part is "30-minute". Your theory makes sense but if you can get a thorough understanding of all you are paying for, where 50 prospects are concerned, in 30 mintues..I don't think you are paying for a lot. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Except I am limiting it to the last 4 to see if this team is finally fixing their decades long drafting issue. It appears they are headed in the right direction but this draft we should know. Adams only has had 2 picks that matter and 1 of them he may have screwed up on. 

That's fair. I was just thinking of the comparison to JBot. At this point it's too early to judge Adams but I think it's safe to say JBot and his staff drafted better than Murray. Not great, but better. 

[jsb]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The bizarre part is "30-minute". Your theory makes sense but if you can get a thorough understanding of all you are paying for, where 50 prospects are concerned, in 30 mintues..I don't think you are paying for a lot. 

Thorny the guy OWNS the team. Is it possible that he just wanted an update from the previous GMs rankings to what they were thinking now?? Does everything have to be drama when it concerns Pegula?? Could he just be inquiring about what direction they were going in for the draft?? 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I thought that XHCRK really inhibited their offencive games.  As you point out, even on their best days, their defencive games remind me more of Phil Housley than Bill Hajt.

I personally want GMKA to find each of them a different sage defencive partner who can teach them how to improve their games.  I can live with Borgen and Bryson as my 3rd pair.  If we are going with two pairs of youngsters (not my preference), the pairs we should try are Dahlin-Borgen and Bryson-Jokiharu.

 

We're on the same page there.  Give Bryson the 1st crack at Jokiharju's partner & give Samuelson a shot as well if the 1st pairing doesn't work.

[Thorny]

Just now, jsb said:

Thorny the guy OWNS the team. Is it possible that he just wanted an update from the previous GMs rankings to what they were thinking now?? Does everything have to be drama when it concerns Pegula?? Could he just be inquiring about what direction they were going in for the draft?? 

Ya definitely. 

I think the context of the discussion was the presumption that that meeting was the extent of Pegula's input re:the draft. Was merely responding to Tom's take that I took to mean he also thought was his only input - he can correct me if I am wrong there. 

My meaning with "bizarre" was more along the lines of it seeming kind of perfunctory, kinda the opposite of nefarious meddling. 

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

I glossed through the thread and I didn’t see (my apologies if I just missed it) what I took as the biggest WTF from the article:

Though Terry Pegula has a reputation for interfering with the club's decision-making, his only maneuver to be included in hockey operations that spring came in April when, according to sources, Pegula requested the scouting staff brief him via a 30-minute conference call on the Sabres’ top 50 prospect rankings ahead of the draft. 
 

Is Lance intimating that Terry Pegula has input on draft picks.  ***** Yikes.  Now the selection of Jack Quinn makes a lot more sense.  Is this why we have ended up with all these World Juniors all stars.  Because uncle Terry saw them dazzle against a bunch of kids.  Oh boy. 

This wasn't my takeaway at all -- if TP's only "maneuver to be included in hockey operations" was a 30-minute conference call, that sounds like someone who is pretty disconnected -- i.e. the opposite of a meddler, @PASabreFan.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

 

This is what is so ####ing frustrating about this off-season, expecting everything to blow up.

Bring McCabe back and keep him paired with Ristolainen (after he finally heals up).  That was their best pairing last year.  (Realize it's not a popular opinion, but they were.  For large stretched Dahkin - Jokiharju was a disaster in waiting in their own end.)Bring in a 4 quality D to fill McCabe role until he's ready to return.  

The D becomes

McCabe - Ristolainen

Dahlin- Borgen

Bryson/Samuelson/New Guy - Jokiharju. (Maybe "new guy" is Pilut?) w/ 2 of those the 7&8 after McCabe healthy.

 

Bring in Daneault and keep Eichel & Reinhart.  Ideally bring in a 4C to put Eakin on the bench.  Bring Sheahan back as the 13th guy / fill in w/ injuries in the bottom 1/2 of the lineup.

The forwards become:

Olofsson - Eichel - Cozens/Reinhart

Skinner - Daneault - Reinhart/ Cozens

Asplund - Mittelstadt - Thompson/ Ruotsalainen

Girgensons - 4C - Okposo

Some combo of Eakin / Sheahan / R2 / Okposo as the spares.

 

Bring back Ullmark & add a guy at least as good as him.

 

Get the coach right & it gets them d*mn close to a playoff spot w/ no growth at all from any of the kids.  (IMHO, that lineup should be in but it's a stacked division, so no promises.) And that lineup can handle the inevitable 6-10 games of Eichel out via injury & 10 games of Ullmark's inavailability, as a in IMHO.

 

I wouldn't be against keeping both Eichel and Reinhart if the return wasn't sufficient. You are tuned in as well as anyone so your interpretation of the situation is probably close to mine. It appears that Adams has already made up his mind about who wants to stay and who doesn't. My reading of the situation is that Reinhart more than Jack is likely to be moved because of his contract status. With Jack my stance has not changed. If the return isn't sufficient you keep him until the situation clarifies itself. No more ROR deals. 

The majority of people here like to bludgeon Risto. I'm not one of them. 

[Curt]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

I glossed through the thread and I didn’t see (my apologies if I just missed it) what I took as the biggest WTF from the article:

Though Terry Pegula has a reputation for interfering with the club's decision-making, his only maneuver to be included in hockey operations that spring came in April when, according to sources, Pegula requested the scouting staff brief him via a 30-minute conference call on the Sabres’ top 50 prospect rankings ahead of the draft. 
 

Is Lance intimating that Terry Pegula has input on draft picks.  ***** Yikes.  Now the selection of Jack Quinn makes a lot more sense.  Is this why we have ended up with all these World Juniors all stars.  Because uncle Terry saw them dazzle against a bunch of kids.  Oh boy. 

No.  If Lance wanted to convey that, he probably would have said it.  In fact it seems that he was implying just the opposite.  That Pegula actually was NOT involved in hockey operations.

If feels like you are trying too hard to twist a mildly good think into a negative.

[PASabreFan]

45 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

This wasn't my takeaway at all -- if TP's only "maneuver to be included in hockey operations" was a 30-minute conference call, that sounds like someone who is pretty disconnected -- i.e. the opposite of a meddler, @PASabreFan.

That IS meddling. Along with everything else @Brawndo occasionally outlines — without your scorn and harassment, by the way.

1 hour ago, jsb said:

Thorny the guy OWNS the team. Is it possible that he just wanted an update from the previous GMs rankings to what they were thinking now?? Does everything have to be drama when it concerns Pegula?? Could he just be inquiring about what direction they were going in for the draft?? 

But why? What's it to him? What possible good could come of it? And the bad is obvious — THE owner is affecting the process.

[Marvin]

28 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That IS meddling. Along with everything else @Brawndo occasionally outlines — without your scorn and harassment, by the way.

But why? What's it to him? What possible good could come of it? And the bad is obvious — THE owner is affecting the process.

I am not as paranoid as you are about TP, but you have a point that needs reinforcing:

When a superior gets involved in what a subordinate is doing, s/he becomes akin to an observer of a quantum state: the mere fact that the superior is observing the process intrinsically changes the process; it does not matter if s/he tries to change the process or not.  (I call it the "Heisenberg uncertainty principle of management.")  When it is the owner of a hockey franchise within a flat management infrastructure, the effect is more pronounced because there is less insulation between the owner and the person affected.  And he is known to radically affect things, such as the contracts with Jack Eichel and Jeff Skinner.

[Taro T]

52 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I wouldn't be against keeping both Eichel and Reinhart if the return wasn't sufficient. You are tuned in as well as anyone so your interpretation of the situation is probably close to mine. It appears that Adams has already made up his mind about who wants to stay and who doesn't. My reading of the situation is that Reinhart more than Jack is likely to be moved because of his contract status. With Jack my stance has not changed. If the return isn't sufficient you keep him until the situation clarifies itself. No more ROR deals. 

The majority of people here like to bludgeon Risto. I'm not one of them. 

My expectation is Eichel & Ristolainen are gone & Reinhart is likely as well.  Am also expecting Granato is retained.  

Take that for what it's worth, which isn't much.  Since COVID hit, haven't had nearly the same access to info as in the past.  @Brawndo is the one w/ solid sources & @tom webster as well.  Most of my info has been pushed back at least 1 level on 1st hand/ 2nd hand / etc.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

My expectation is Eichel & Ristolainen are gone & Reinhart is likely as well.  Am also expecting Granato is retained.  

Take that for what it's worth, which isn't much.  Since COVID hit, haven't had nearly the same access to info as in the past.  @Brawndo is the one w/ solid sources & @tom webster as well.  Most of my info has been pushed back at least 1 level on 1st hand/ 2nd hand / etc.

The only thing I can add to your trade expectation is that KA has been clear about what his thoughts are about this roster and some of its players. For better or worse players who are not fully bought in will be moved. What solidified his inclinations to actualize them was the contrast between the young core who exhibited enthusiasm about the future and the lack of it by some of his prime players he gathered from the exit interviews. And I want to make it clear that I fully understand the skeptical views of the players on the exit list. This avoidable situation is mostly a franchise failure.