Should KA just allow Eichel to have the surgery now?

[Curt]

No one here knows enough to have any clue about whether Eichel should get surgery or not.

[IKnowPhysics]

2 hours ago, Cal Naughton Jr said:

Yes. This is a no brainer 

 

14 minutes ago, Curt said:

No one here knows enough to have any clue about whether Eichel should get surgery or not.

[Brawndo]

From 31 Thoughts

The Sabres do have some cause for concern here 

The Sabres and their captain are believed to have agreed to a month-long “pause” to see how Eichel reacted to rest. The end of that period is approaching, and, from what I understand, he still wants the surgery. The Sabres aren’t thrilled with the idea, and have not indicated they will approve.

I find it hard to believe Eichel isn’t consulting the best of the best, while Buffalo’s reticence comes from artificial disc replacement lacking evidence of its effectiveness on elite-level athletes. It’s a relatively new phenomenon. As far as I could find, there are no examples of NHLers who returned to play after having one.

Mixed martial artist Chris Weidman announced he underwent this procedure in Jan. 2019, and proclaimed it a success. He’s fought three times since then, suffering an unrelated injury three weeks ago. Another fighter, Aljamain Sterling, went through it last month. He’s resumed cardio and sounds optimistic, telling ESPN that doctors informed him, “I will heal in three months.”

The Johns Hopkins Medicine website describes the procedure like this: 

Cervical disk replacement surgery involves removing a diseased cervical disk and replacing it with an artificial disk. Before this procedure was available, the affected disk was removed and the vertebrae above and below were fused together to prevent motion. The use of an artificial disk to replace your natural cervical disk is a new type of treatment that has recently been approved by the FDA. Disk replacement surgery may have the advantage of allowing more movement and creating less stress on your remaining vertebrae than traditional cervical disk surgery.

“While any surgery carries some risk, disk replacement surgery is a relatively safe procedure,” the website states, before adding it “is a new type of spine surgery so there is little information on possible long-term risks and outcomes.” 

There are recent examples of star players embracing the unconventional. Connor McDavid did it coming back from his severe knee injury. Sidney Crosbywith his concussion recovery.

[darksabre]

10 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

 

Curt is right though.

[Cal Naughton Jr]

40 minutes ago, Curt said:

No one here knows enough to have any clue about whether Eichel should get surgery or not.

I would think that he does 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Shootica]

12 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

From 31 Thoughts

The Sabres do have some cause for concern here 

The Sabres and their captain are believed to have agreed to a month-long “pause” to see how Eichel reacted to rest. The end of that period is approaching, and, from what I understand, he still wants the surgery. The Sabres aren’t thrilled with the idea, and have not indicated they will approve.

I find it hard to believe Eichel isn’t consulting the best of the best, while Buffalo’s reticence comes from artificial disc replacement lacking evidence of its effectiveness on elite-level athletes. It’s a relatively new phenomenon. As far as I could find, there are no examples of NHLers who returned to play after having one.

Mixed martial artist Chris Weidman announced he underwent this procedure in Jan. 2019, and proclaimed it a success. He’s fought three times since then, suffering an unrelated injury three weeks ago. Another fighter, Aljamain Sterling, went through it last month. He’s resumed cardio and sounds optimistic, telling ESPN that doctors informed him, “I will heal in three months.”

The Johns Hopkins Medicine website describes the procedure like this: 

Cervical disk replacement surgery involves removing a diseased cervical disk and replacing it with an artificial disk. Before this procedure was available, the affected disk was removed and the vertebrae above and below were fused together to prevent motion. The use of an artificial disk to replace your natural cervical disk is a new type of treatment that has recently been approved by the FDA. Disk replacement surgery may have the advantage of allowing more movement and creating less stress on your remaining vertebrae than traditional cervical disk surgery.

“While any surgery carries some risk, disk replacement surgery is a relatively safe procedure,” the website states, before adding it “is a new type of spine surgery so there is little information on possible long-term risks and outcomes.” 

There are recent examples of star players embracing the unconventional. Connor McDavid did it coming back from his severe knee injury. Sidney Crosbywith his concussion recovery.

That's really interesting.  Makes it sound like the crux of the issue isn't that the team wanted him to try PT before electing for surgery, but that the team docs are recommending a more traditional fusion surgery if that is necessary whereas Eichel wants to go for the more cutting-edge tech with potential for the best possible outcome.

If that's the case, I do kinda see Jack's point.  Especially if there are other high profile athletes who have had success with replacement.

[I-90 W]

This thread isn’t about whether or not Jack should have surgery, it’s specifically what should KA do if he has the ability to override the team's physician. If he can, should he to maximize Jack’s trade value is the question.

[erickompositör72]

6 minutes ago, Shootica said:

That's really interesting.  Makes it sound like the crux of the issue isn't that the team wanted him to try PT before electing for surgery, but that the team docs are recommending a more traditional fusion surgery if that is necessary whereas Eichel wants to go for the more cutting-edge tech with potential for the best possible outcome.

If that's the case, I do kinda see Jack's point.  Especially if there are other high profile athletes who have had success with replacement.

?Can you please point to where you found this information?

[darksabre]

5 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

This thread isn’t about whether or not Jack should have surgery, it’s specifically what should KA do if he has the ability to override the team's physician. If he can, should he to maximize Jack’s trade value is the question.

There is no "overriding" the team doctor, there is only firing the team doctor.

[erickompositör72]

5 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

This thread isn’t about whether or not Jack should have surgery, it’s specifically what should KA do if he has the ability to override the team's physician. If he can, should he to maximize Jack’s trade value is the question.

Not sure if he has the ability to override the physician, but he does have the power to hire a physician who agrees with his preferred course of action.

[Shootica]

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

?Can you please point to where you found this information?

Just inferring from Friedman's piece.  There wouldn't be this big of an argument if they didn't wholly disagree on a treatment path, and from what I take of that article it goes beyond just PT.

[erickompositör72]

2 minutes ago, Shootica said:

Just inferring from Friedman's piece.  There wouldn't be this big of an argument if they didn't wholly disagree on a treatment path, and from what I take of that article it goes beyond just PT.

The piece says Eichel still wants surgery, and the Sabres may not approve. If you're inferring they won't approve because they prefer one type of surgery over another, with respect, that's quite a leap.

 

The only place I see the other type of surgery mentioned is in the Johns Hopkins description of the new technique, compared to the old one.

[SDS]

ADR is 20 years behind the times on the US compared to Europe. I was ready to fly to Germany to get mine done when the pandemic hit. It’s been pretty common over there since 2000. If I were him, I wouldn’t even get that procedure done in the United States.

Belonging to many ADR Facebook groups, there is serious reason to be concerned for an elite level athlete. Those disks move. They can cause additional pain. The thickness of the artificial disk doesn’t necessarily match your old disk space. 

And Sidney Crosby had whiplash, not a concussion. It’s exactly what my daughter had and needed surgery to decompress the nerves that were causing her headaches.

[Hank]

Are there any legalities preventing Jack from paying for the surgery out of his own pocket?

Could the Sabres have the option to void his contract if he did and it wasn't successful?

[Marvin]

15 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

This thread isn’t about whether or not Jack should have surgery, it’s specifically what should KA do if he has the ability to override the team's physician. If he can, should he to maximize Jack’s trade value is the question.

Unless GMKA is an MD, he absolutely positively should take the doctors' advice and not over-ride them.

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

From 31 Thoughts

The Sabres do have some cause for concern here 

The Sabres and their captain are believed to have agreed to a month-long “pause” to see how Eichel reacted to rest. The end of that period is approaching, and, from what I understand, he still wants the surgery. The Sabres aren’t thrilled with the idea, and have not indicated they will approve.

I find it hard to believe Eichel isn’t consulting the best of the best, while Buffalo’s reticence comes from artificial disc replacement lacking evidence of its effectiveness on elite-level athletes. It’s a relatively new phenomenon. As far as I could find, there are no examples of NHLers who returned to play after having one.

Mixed martial artist Chris Weidman announced he underwent this procedure in Jan. 2019, and proclaimed it a success. He’s fought three times since then, suffering an unrelated injury three weeks ago. Another fighter, Aljamain Sterling, went through it last month. He’s resumed cardio and sounds optimistic, telling ESPN that doctors informed him, “I will heal in three months.”

The Johns Hopkins Medicine website describes the procedure like this: 

Cervical disk replacement surgery involves removing a diseased cervical disk and replacing it with an artificial disk. Before this procedure was available, the affected disk was removed and the vertebrae above and below were fused together to prevent motion. The use of an artificial disk to replace your natural cervical disk is a new type of treatment that has recently been approved by the FDA. Disk replacement surgery may have the advantage of allowing more movement and creating less stress on your remaining vertebrae than traditional cervical disk surgery.

“While any surgery carries some risk, disk replacement surgery is a relatively safe procedure,” the website states, before adding it “is a new type of spine surgery so there is little information on possible long-term risks and outcomes.” 

There are recent examples of star players embracing the unconventional. Connor McDavid did it coming back from his severe knee injury. Sidney Crosbywith his concussion recovery.

I can honestly understand both sides in this situation. Eichel is their star player and having him be the equivalent to the NHL's guinea pig with this kind of serious surgery isn't exactly a great situation. While MMA fighters have come back successfully; there are only two and the MMA is very different than NHL hockey in the types of strain and/or motions you need in your neck.

I fully understand Eichel's side however as well since my father had the fusion done after his car accident and he regrets it entirely as he literally cannot look up any longer. (Since the initial fusion, two more have joined the "fun" over time) 

You also likely have some underlying suspicion around the front office if Eichel's merely looking for a way to kill a year with "setbacks" to wait on his NMC. Especially with how Hall treated us in the same NMC position.

Effectively I'm sensing that the Sabres would rather he try and work out the problem than have the "1st of its kind" surgery, for the NHL that is, and have to deal with whatever those ensuing results produce. Hell, perhaps he has given them reason to believe he wants out prior to this and they are finding difficulty in finding out what his motives are. It certainly doesn't sound like he wants the surgery to get back to the team quickly; he wants the surgery because that is what he desires. And while I would almost always side with the player; something about his specific body language and phrasing strikes me as unusual; unless he already requested a trade behind closed doors  

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Shootica said:

That's really interesting.  Makes it sound like the crux of the issue isn't that the team wanted him to try PT before electing for surgery, but that the team docs are recommending a more traditional fusion surgery if that is necessary whereas Eichel wants to go for the more cutting-edge tech with potential for the best possible outcome.

If that's the case, I do kinda see Jack's point.  Especially if there are other high profile athletes who have had success with replacement.

Nowhere in Friedman's article does it say the Sabres doctors want fusion surgery. Where the heck did you get that from??

Edited May 11, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[PromoTheRobot]

12 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I can honestly understand both sides in this situation. Eichel is their star player and having him be the equivalent to the NHL's guinea pig with this kind of serious surgery isn't exactly a great situation. While MMA fighters have come back successfully; there are only two and the MMA is very different than NHL hockey in the types of strain and/or motions you need in your neck.

I fully understand Eichel's side however as well since my father had the fusion done after his car accident and he regrets it entirely as he literally cannot look up any longer. (Since the initial fusion, two more have joined the "fun" over time) 

You also likely have some underlying suspicion around the front office if Eichel's merely looking for a way to kill a year with "setbacks" to wait on his NMC. Especially with how Hall treated us in the same NMC position.

Effectively I'm sensing that the Sabres would rather he try and work out the problem than have the "1st of its kind" surgery, for the NHL that is, and have to deal with whatever those ensuing results produce. Hell, perhaps he has given them reason to believe he wants out prior to this and they are finding difficulty in finding out what his motives are. It certainly doesn't sound like he wants the surgery to get back to the team quickly; he wants the surgery because that is what he desires. And while I would almost always side with the player; something about his specific body language and phrasing strikes me as unusual; unless he already requested a trade behind closed doors  

It would be interesting to see if he's still lobbying for surgery after a trade, or if therapy suddenly becomes acceptable.

Edited May 11, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Shootica]

1 hour ago, erickompositör72 said:

The piece says Eichel still wants surgery, and the Sabres may not approve. If you're inferring they won't approve because they prefer one type of surgery over another, with respect, that's quite a leap.

 

The only place I see the other type of surgery mentioned is in the Johns Hopkins description of the new technique, compared to the old one.

Maybe you're right and I'm reading too far between the lines there. 

But to my knowledge, the common practice for this sort of thing is to rehab it for 4 to 8 weeks and see how your body responds.  If you respond well, the pain goes away, and imaging says you don't have a huge risk of further damage, then you're good without surgery.  If that doesn't happen withing that timeframe, you look to surgery.

That 4-8 weeks has pretty much passed for Eichel.  So at this point if he and the team are still at odds over the treatment route, and with Friedman highlighting the newer ADR procedure in his article, I'm inclined to believe that they disagree on the surgical route.

I could be wrong, I'm far from a medical expert, but that's how I came to that conclusion.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Shootica said:

Just inferring from Friedman's piece.  There wouldn't be this big of an argument if they didn't wholly disagree on a treatment path, and from what I take of that article it goes beyond just PT.

You inferred wrong. The Sabres doctors are not advocating for fusion surgery. The article doesn't say that.

[Shootica]

56 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You inferred wrong. The Sabres doctors are not advocating for fusion surgery. The article doesn't say that.

You're right, the article doesn't dabble on fusion surgery.  Friedman is just reporting that Eichel is exploring ADR surgery and that the Sabres are reluctant on that procedure given the lack of similar athletes who have undergone it.  And he says that they've agreed on a pause to see how he reacts to rest and if it improves on its own.

But that injury was almost two months ago now, so I'd have to imagine that they have a pretty good idea of if rest and recovery will do the trick here.  And if Jack is still at odds with the team and pushing for ADR surgery, I'm inclined to believe that rest has not fixed the issue.

The reason I mentioned fusion is that as far as I know there aren't a ton of options when it comes to a herniated disc if rest/rehab don't do the trick, and fusion seems to be the most common surgical procedure.  So I don't see it as too huge a leap to say that if rest didn't do the trick, that would be where the team docs look to next. 

Now maybe they're at a point where the team docs are happy with how he has responded to rest and feel that he does not need surgery of any sort, and Eichel is still strongly in favor of surgery.  I could see that being a reasonable case as well.

[PromoTheRobot]

6 minutes ago, Shootica said:

You're right, the article doesn't dabble on fusion surgery.  Friedman is just reporting that Eichel is exploring ADR surgery and that the Sabres are reluctant on that procedure given the lack of similar athletes who have undergone it.  And he says that they've agreed on a pause to see how he reacts to rest and if it improves on its own.

But that injury was almost two months ago now, so I'd have to imagine that they have a pretty good idea of if rest and recovery will do the trick here.  And if Jack is still at odds with the team and pushing for ADR surgery, I'm inclined to believe that rest has not fixed the issue.

The reason I mentioned fusion is that as far as I know there aren't a ton of options when it comes to a herniated disc if rest/rehab don't do the trick, and fusion seems to be the most common surgical procedure.  So I don't see it as too huge a leap to say that if rest didn't do the trick, that would be where the team docs look to next. 

Now maybe they're at a point where the team docs are happy with how he has responded to rest and feel that he does not need surgery of any sort, and Eichel is still strongly in favor of surgery.  I could see that being a reasonable case as well.

You made a pretty big leap to "Sabres docs want fusion surgery." I don't think the Sabres want any surgery if it can be helped. From what I'm reading most doctors say avoid surgery if you can. PT usually gets a better result. Jack found a doctor who recommended the ADR procedure. Why wouldn't the Sabres be cool to something that's still an experimental procedure?

I think there's something else going on here. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

I can honestly understand both sides in this situation. Eichel is their star player and having him be the equivalent to the NHL's guinea pig with this kind of serious surgery isn't exactly a great situation. While MMA fighters have come back successfully; there are only two and the MMA is very different than NHL hockey in the types of strain and/or motions you need in your neck.

I fully understand Eichel's side however as well since my father had the fusion done after his car accident and he regrets it entirely as he literally cannot look up any longer. (Since the initial fusion, two more have joined the "fun" over time) 

You also likely have some underlying suspicion around the front office if Eichel's merely looking for a way to kill a year with "setbacks" to wait on his NMC. Especially with how Hall treated us in the same NMC position.

Effectively I'm sensing that the Sabres would rather he try and work out the problem than have the "1st of its kind" surgery, for the NHL that is, and have to deal with whatever those ensuing results produce. Hell, perhaps he has given them reason to believe he wants out prior to this and they are finding difficulty in finding out what his motives are. It certainly doesn't sound like he wants the surgery to get back to the team quickly; he wants the surgery because that is what he desires. And while I would almost always side with the player; something about his specific body language and phrasing strikes me as unusual; unless he already requested a trade behind closed doors  

He said in the interview he think he'll be back for the season if he had the surgery 

[Radar]

Quite frankly the speculation on medical issues by fans is getting rediculous. Obviously there's a problem between Eichel and the team. Let's not offer opinions that go into medical evaluations. We're not qualified or at least I don't think we are.

[thewookie1]

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He said in the interview he think he'll be back for the season if he had the surgery 

3 months from the date on a somewhat experimental surgery regarding one of the most important parts of his body.

If he comes back and takes off, that’s good but still leaves us with his NMC hanging over our head if we can’t make him happy. 

However if he comes back and looks like a shell of his former self or has set backs that lead into November on; we still have the NMC over our heads but far less to work with.

Edited May 11, 2021 by thewookie1