IF the Sabres trade Jack and Sam...

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Chevy is a pretty good GM but I have problems with his loyalty. Wheeler 5 x 8.25m...Perreault 4.125m x 4.

He does get some good contracts signed though. It'll be interesting to see what PLD does next year and what he signs him for.

Oh, so you don't like the Wheeler deal?

On 8/18/2020 at 7:03 PM, Thorny said:

No, not him. I’m talking about the Wheeler they have signed for the next 4 years at 8.25 per. The aged 34-38 Wheeler. The one who dropped from 91 points last season to 65 this year.

I mean, ya they’ll be fine if that’s the only drop he takes.

On 8/18/2020 at 7:16 PM, Ducky said:

Wheeler "dropped" from a 1.1 ppg player last season to a .92 ppg player this season.

Last season's D had Buff, Trouba, Myers and Chiarot on it. Take a look at the patchwork D the Jets had this season and it isn't hard to figure out.

He signed a 5 x 8.25m deal that kicked in this season. He is the 7th leading scorer in the league in the last 6 seasons. The guy's missed 6 games in 9 seasons and one of the games he was sat at the end of the season to rest. What should he have been signed to? 8 x 9m like Skinner or six million dollar man Okposo?

 

Hindsight 20/20, right? 

😉

[DHawerchuk10]

12 hours ago, Kong said:

I was reading Ranger fans talking about Eichel and to a man, they don't want him. They call him an expensive, injury-prone crybaby. It occurs to me after all this, maybe nobody wants Eichel?

They just want to fleece Buffalo.  They want him badly, but think if they personally downplay him, that will somehow effect what the Rangers give up. 

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, DHawerchuk10 said:

They just want to fleece Buffalo.  They want him badly, but think if they personally downplay him, that will somehow effect what the Rangers give up. 

It worked when the Blues fans did it for O'Reilly.

[Drag0nDan]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

Why TF would Reinhart want to sign a long term deal with the Buffalo Sabres?  In one year he can sign a long term deal wherever he wants to.

I meant last season.

[Ducky]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Oh, so you don't like the Wheeler deal?

 

Hindsight 20/20, right? 

😉

He's on a 74 point pace in a 82 game schedule this year but truth be told, I wanted him gone before he signed the extension. I was suggesting to trade him to OTT for Stone and more and Jets fans jumped all over me. He would have got more in free agency though.

The difference is, I am not sitting here telling you I said something when in fact I said something else. I know what I said and I admit it.

Oh ya. He'll be 37 when his contract ends. He's 34 and has 3 more years. Not a boat anchor of a contract but not a good one.

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, Ducky said:

He's on a 74 point pace in a 82 game schedule this year but truth be told, I wanted him gone before he signed the extension. I was suggesting to trade him to OTT for Stone and more and Jets fans jumped all over me. He would have got more in free agency though.

The difference is, I am not sitting here telling you I said something when in fact I said something else. I know what I said and I admit it.

Oh ya. He'll be 37 when his contract ends. He's 34 and has 3 more years. Not a boat anchor of a contract but not a good one.

Assuredly a putrid contract, Wheeler has among the worst defensive metrics in the league, actively harming the Jets far more than he helps, the other team consistently dominating while he’s on the ice - contributing significant negative value and more goals against than for. 

Don’t let the empty calorie secondary assists and power play points fool you - I’m not normally a plus minus guy, but the extremes can be telling: on a team with a +14 positive differential, Wheeler is a team worst -19, more than TRIPLE the negative of anyone else on the roster. 

A truly terrible contact that’s only getting worse with age, I’ve yet to meet a Jets fan (aside from Ducky) who doesn’t actively consider it among the league’s worst deals. 

[Thorny]

To illustrate how bad Wheeler’s differential is relative to the team: Skinner, lambasted for his two way play here, is a -11, on a team with a -61 goal differential. Wheeler’s number relative to his team is actually quite astounding. A horrid defensive player who is a net negative value overall. Again, not normally big on plus minus especially without context, but the context being the Jets a well-positive team, Wheeler’s numbers stand out like a sore thumb 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Thorny

[nucci]

On 5/11/2021 at 7:31 AM, Kong said:

I was reading Ranger fans talking about Eichel and to a man, they don't want him. They call him an expensive, injury-prone crybaby. It occurs to me after all this, maybe nobody wants Eichel?

So the fans will decide if Eichel gets traded?  Right, no one will want Eichel. Good call

[Kong]

28 minutes ago, nucci said:

So the fans will decide if Eichel gets traded?  Right, no one will want Eichel. Good call

To me, it all depends on how this so-called surgery shakes out. It's entirely possible that if Eichel goes his own way, he might ruin his neck. I've never seen a neck disk injury in a hockey player before.

[Trettioåtta]

From an NHL executive on Eichel (via The Athletic):

Tough spot for Buffalo. Your team is somewhat in disarray and your marquee player, who has had a short, substandard, injury-riddled year and NOW wants out? 

[dudacek]

Random thought, depending on the current trade market for Sam:

If Eichel is traded without a top centre coming in, the Sabres might be better off keeping Reinhart, even on a 1-year deal.

He played very well as a disgruntled 1C down the stretch shielding Dylan and Casey. They are going to need similar shielding next year. Keeping him to aid their development might be worth the difference in price between trading him now and trading him as a rental.

 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Random thought, depending on the current trade market for Sam:

If Eichel is traded without a top centre coming in, the Sabres might be better off keeping Reinhart, even on a 1-year deal.

He played very well as a disgruntled 1C down the stretch shielding Dylan and Casey. They are going to need similar shielding next year. Keeping him to aid their development might be worth the difference in price between trading him now and trading him as a rental.

 

They'd have to be willing to retain him at the deadline and lose him for nothing, though, if we are in a playoff push. That would be a prerequisite and the evaluation would still have to make sense, that considered

If we aren't in a playoff push, things probably aren't looking good if we are selling off at the deadline

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Random thought, depending on the current trade market for Sam:

If Eichel is traded without a top centre coming in, the Sabres might be better off keeping Reinhart, even on a 1-year deal.

He played very well as a disgruntled 1C down the stretch shielding Dylan and Casey. They are going to need similar shielding next year. Keeping him to aid their development might be worth the difference in price between trading him now and trading him as a rental.

 

How can Eichel be traded when his health status is in question? As it stands he is not going to pass a physical for us or any interested team. It is in the interest of the organization to get him back healthy and back to playing at an elite level so that his value can be enhanced. This is a tough situation compounded by the Reinhart contract situation which in my view (and apparently your view) the more immediate concern. 

[Thorny]

36 minutes ago, JohnC said:

How can Eichel be traded when his health status is in question? As it stands he is not going to pass a physical for us or any interested team. It is in the interest of the organization to get him back healthy and back to playing at an elite level so that his value can be enhanced. This is a tough situation compounded by the Reinhart contract situation which in my view (and apparently your view) the more immediate concern. 

Players get dealt when they are injured. We traded for Kane when he was hurt.

You only "can't trade him while injured" if the returns aren't satisfactory - whether they are that, or not, remains to be seen. All it takes it two bidders going against each other to drive up the price. 

There are plenty of teams who wouldn't be open to such a massive deal, in season. Things could get dicey if a deal is still not completed by the draft. If a team senses their only opportunity to acquire a potential franchise-changing talent is this offseason, because after his NMC kicks in, they figure they'll out of the running, a team (s) may evaluate the risk to be worth it and pony up now. 

It's hard to say. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Thorny

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Players get dealt when they are injured. We traded for Kane when he was hurt.

You only "can't trade him while injured" if the returns aren't satisfactory - whether they are that, or not, remains to be seen. All it takes it two bidders going against each other to drive up the price. 

There are plenty of teams who wouldn't be open to such a massive deal, in season. Things could get dicey if a deal is still not completed by the draft. If a team senses their only opportunity to acquire a potential franchise-changing talent is this offseason, because after his NMC kicks in, they figure they'll out of the running, a team (s) may evaluation the risk to be worth it and pony up now. 

It's hard to say. 

The issue with Eichel is that he has an unresolved disc issue and has a lingering abdominal problem that hasn't been clearly diagnosed. When healthy he is a supreme asset. In my view it would be a mistake to panic and trade him for less than a reasonable/generous return. It would be a mistake to jump the gun and take what you can get sooner than later approach. And on the flip side of the equation if Jack was determined to get out of this turbulent franchise it would be in his interest to get the health issues resolved and so that he can showcase his talents and expand his market. 

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The issue with Eichel is that he has an unresolved disc issue and has a lingering abdominal problem that hasn't been clearly diagnosed. When healthy he is a supreme asset. In my view it would be a mistake to panic and trade him for less than a reasonable/generous return. It would be a mistake to jump the gun and take what you can get sooner than later approach. And on the flip side of the equation if Jack was determined to get out of this turbulent franchise it would be in his interest to get the health issues resolved and so that he can showcase his talents and expand his market. 

Serious question, did you read my post, or just the first sentence and then respond?

[Thorny]

Also, it's not necessarily true that it's in his best personal interest to have the highest value possible, if he seeks to get out. It depends on how willing and ready the Sabres are to trade him. If they've decided he's gone, full stop (not saying this, just go with it, though), the lower his value is, the more teams there will be who can actually pay the required price. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Marvin]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Also, it's not necessarily true that it's in his best personal interest to have the highest value possible, if he seeks to get out. It depends on how willing and ready the Sabres are to trade him. If they've decided he's gone, full stop (not saying this, just go with it, though), the lower his value is, the most teams there be be who can actually pay the required price. 

I don't think he would be pushing for the surgery if he were trying to depress his value.

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I don't think he would be pushing for the surgery if he were trying to depress his value.

I don't think he's actively trying to depress his value. I think he's confident in it, and in getting out if he wants to, and doesn't really care what people think about what he says. 

Sitting on a guaranteed pretty penny at this time lends itself to such thinking. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Serious question, did you read my post, or just the first sentence and then respond?

Yes. 

[Marvin]

IMHO, we will get zero top prospects and 1C's from trading Eichel and Reinhart.  Therefore, I look at what our likely returns are.

2nd-3rd line centres who would be unhappy to be demoted and who might relish and expanded role.

Solid to good prospects who are buried behind a lot of people.

Mid-range, older defencemen

I think we can make a better-rounded team with more balance which can also insulate Mittlestadt and Cozens while they grow.

[Buffalonill]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

IMHO, we will get zero top prospects and 1C's from trading Eichel and Reinhart.  Therefore, I look at what our likely returns are.

2nd-3rd line centres who would be unhappy to be demoted and who might relish and expanded role.

Solid to good prospects who are buried behind a lot of people.

Mid-range, older defencemen

I think we can make a better-rounded team with more balance which can also insulate Mittlestadt and Cozens while they grow.

Then you dont trade him 

[spndnchz]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Players get dealt when they are injured. We traded for Kane when he was hurt.

You only "can't trade him while injured" if the returns aren't satisfactory - whether they are that, or not, remains to be seen. All it takes it two bidders going against each other to drive up the price. 

There are plenty of teams who wouldn't be open to such a massive deal, in season. Things could get dicey if a deal is still not completed by the draft. If a team senses their only opportunity to acquire a potential franchise-changing talent is this offseason, because after his NMC kicks in, they figure they'll out of the running, a team (s) may evaluate the risk to be worth it and pony up now. 

It's hard to say. 

Could happen, sure. But he hasn’t been cleared to play.

Remember Rick Martin?

[Ducky]

9 hours ago, Thorny said:

Assuredly a putrid contract, Wheeler has among the worst defensive metrics in the league, actively harming the Jets far more than he helps, the other team consistently dominating while he’s on the ice - contributing significant negative value and more goals against than for. 

Don’t let the empty calorie secondary assists and power play points fool you - I’m not normally a plus minus guy, but the extremes can be telling: on a team with a +14 positive differential, Wheeler is a team worst -19, more than TRIPLE the negative of anyone else on the roster. 

A truly terrible contact that’s only getting worse with age, I’ve yet to meet a Jets fan (aside from Ducky) who doesn’t actively consider it among the league’s worst deals. 

Jets scored 5 last night and Wheeler (on pace for 74 points in 82 games) had 4 points but ya, his contract is worse than Skinner's, Vlasic's, Ladd's, KO's, Johanssen's, Eriksson's, Seabrook's, etc...

Anyone on the Sabres have 44 points this year or on pace for 74 points? Rhino and Eichel maybe but that is probably it and they are gone this time next year.

People in glass  houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Jets scored 5 last night and Wheeler (on pace for 74 points in 82 games) had 4 points but ya, his contract is worse than Skinner's, Vlasic's, Ladd's, KO's, Johanssen's, Eriksson's, Seabrook's, etc...

Anyone on the Sabres have 44 points this year or on pace for 74 points? Rhino and Eichel maybe but that is probably it and they are gone this time next year.

People in glass  houses shouldn't throw stones.

This isn't the lame ass corners of the sporting internet you must visit where everyone just blindly defends their team and stands firm on their opinions regardless of intelligent arguments that might otherwise sway them. This is Sabrespace.

I don't need to avoid saying something bad about the contract of a guy on another team because one of that team's loyal followers might take a shot at my team, which I must then illogically defend to the death. 

Ya, the Sabres have had a ton of bad contracts.

We know. We've shared a few thoughts about it, actually. Over the years. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Thorny