Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[Zamboni]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

IMO, this Foligno plan smells a lot like bringing in Brian Gionta again. You're going to get a good man, but temper your expectations on the player and expect to overpay on the contract.

Yes. The thought of Foligno makes you all warm and happy inside. What you are actually going to get… Will never live up to what you were expecting. You’ll be looking for the nearest brick wall to bang your head against, while you simultaneously look desperately for someone to take the contract off your hands. Hard pass.

[Thorny]

On 4/26/2021 at 9:49 AM, Scottysabres said:

Jack's had 1 season at 80+, another close, so he "may", and I stress "may" turn in some consistency on the score sheet at that level. But in 5 1/2 seasons he hasn't yet. And while your basing your statements on Eichel on point totals solely it appears, I'm looking at the larger impact on the franchise overall in my opinions of the subject.

Recency biased? If you mean Eichel's complete time on the roster, which is the most recent 5 year franchise stretch, then ya, of course. By your very standard, we shouldn't consider Eichel at all, to avoid, you know, "Recency Bias". (SMH)

Maybe Liger went a bit high with the -90 included, but Eichel has definitely established as at least an 80 point guy (again, with health). But that's his production rate. (left out his 70 point, playing injured pace in 21 games this season)

2016-17 - 77 point pace over 82

2017-18 - 78 point pace over 82

2018-19 - 87 point pace over 82

2019-20 - 94 point pace over 82

- - - 

Eichel has averaged 84 points per 82 since starting his Sophomore year in the league

Eichel averaged 87 points per 82 during the last 3 seasons before this year

Eichel averaged 90 points per 82 over the last 2 seasons before this year

Edited April 27, 2021 by Thorny

[Scottysabres]

23 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Maybe Liger went a bit high with the -90 included, but Eichel has definitely established as at least an 80 point guy (again, with health). But that's his production rate. (left out his 70 point, playing injured pace in 21 games this season)

2016-17 - 77 point pace over 82

2017-18 - 78 point pace over 82

2018-19 - 87 point pace over 82

2019-20 - 94 point pace over 82

- - - 

Eichel has averaged 84 points per 82 since starting his Sophomore year in the league

Eichel averaged 87 points per 82 during the last 3 seasons before this year

Eichel averaged 90 points per 82 over the last 2 seasons before this year

Sorry Thorny, but basing his seasonal statistics on an 82 game average isn't a complete picture of the entirety of the story. The fact is, Eichel didn't play 82 games in any 9f those seasons. Recalculation based on actual games played drops those numbers. And as I've said repeatedly now, it's not an anti-Eichel thing, he's a very good player in his own right, but telling the whole story lends credence to his value, both within the talent level and organization. 

[Thorny]

41 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Sorry Thorny, but basing his seasonal statistics on an 82 game average isn't a complete picture of the entirety of the story. The fact is, Eichel didn't play 82 games in any 9f those seasons. Recalculation based on actual games played drops those numbers. And as I've said repeatedly now, it's not an anti-Eichel thing, he's a very good player in his own right, but telling the whole story lends credence to his value, both within the talent level and organization. 

I've already mentioned injuries as a significant concern. 

You said "consistency on the score sheet" though, and Jack DOES have scoring consistency. Usually when someone intimates that a player isn't scoring at a consistent rate it's not a comment on injuries. Or, they'd say - "he seems to miss games"

He has injury concerns. He averages 68 games a season. But when he plays those games, he simply scores at an elite rate, particularly in the 2 seasons previous (when he was entering into his prime) 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Thorny

[Scottysabres]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I've already mentioned injuries as a significant concern. 

You said "consistency on the score sheet" though, and Jack DOES have scoring consistency. Usually when someone intimates that a player isn't scoring at a consistent rate it's not a comment on injuries. Or, they'd say - "he seems to miss games"

He has injury concerns. He averages 66 games a season. But when he plays those games, he simply scores at an elite rate, particularly in the 2 seasons previous (when he was entering into his prime) 

I'm not denying he has consistency. I'm saying he hasn't shown consistency at the elevation LG posted. 

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I'm not denying he has consistency. I'm saying he hasn't shown consistency at the elevation LG posted. 

On a per game basis, he has, though. 

It's an injury issue, not a scoring consistency issue

- - - 

You wouldn't say

"Eichel as an overall player has a consistency problem"

"Why?"

"Well, he has a problem with injuries"

Edit - Also, last year, he actually only missed 1 game - season cut short for everyone, of course. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Thorny

[Weave]

Thorny, and I am almost certain you know this, you can’t be a 90 pt player if you aren’t in enough games to score 90 pts in a season.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Weave said:

Thorny, and I am almost certain you know this, you can’t be a 90 pt player if you aren’t in enough games to score 90 pts in a season.

I'll simplify this, then, by popular demand:

The baseline was 80.

Jack scored 82

And then 78 in 68 games before covid shut the season down. He wouldn't have gotten 2 more in the normal 14 games that would have followed? We are going to hold THAT against him??

Throw the injury caveat out the window - he's an 80 point player, right now, anyways. 

Even WITH COVID he averaged 80 points per season over the last 2 seasons. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Thorny

[Weave]

Just now, Thorny said:

I'll simplify this, then, by popular demand:

The baseline was 80.

Jack scored 82

And then 78 in 68 games before covid shut the season down. He wouldn't have gotten 2 more in the normal 14 games that would have followed?

Throw the injury caveat out the window - he's an 80 point player, anyways. 

He’s def a proven 80pt player. No argument there.

[Thorny]

On 4/26/2021 at 7:58 AM, LGR4GM said:

Your perspective is SEVERELY broken if you don't think Jack Eichel is one of the 10 best players to play for the Sabres. More recency bias, all because he looked like ***** while playing injured this year for a terrible coach. 

Yes and my contention has never been you can't move Eichel, just that if you do it must be for an overpayment to make sure you not only reproduce Jack but also add on to what he brings (80-90pts a season). 

Requirement fulfilled the last 2 years, in raw numbers, all caveats that work in his favor thrown out the window

[3putt]

The discussion about leadership is moronic.  The captaincy is an honorific. The captain does not make trade or lineups or even decide who goes in a SO.  Leadership and example starts at the very top. And I mean the very top.  Not in the locker room. Everyone in the room is a professional being paid to do a job. The Blackhawks did not go down the tubes because they suddenly lost leadership, they lost talent in Hossa Sharp and others. The lightning didn’t win suddenly because of leadership, they brought in better players who executed better than their opponents. The Caps didn’t suddenly become cup champions because of leadership, they adapted their tactics.  

There are too many here who think that the team will suddenly morph into the 74 Flyers with the addition of a tough as they see it individual.  Not how it works. The transformation only comes when an individual stands up for themselves and pushes back. 
 

Winning comes from being better than your opponent and usually is tied to being more talented across the board.  Not one or two players being expected to carry everyone else, but outmatching your opponent through all 4 lines.  And then executing and outscoring them.
 

The idea that your team will be better without a guy who accounts for a third of your team’s offense is ridiculous.  You keep that guy and get rid of the dregs.  The post RK euphoria is a bit of a false flag. There is no pressure, the season is over.  No guarantee they play like that when the season starts again next year. Except that Jack will produce like he has in every year he has been here.  
 

And I find it odd that there is no non-stop media barrage about Larkin wanting out of Detroit or pick whomever out of Ottawa, Anaheim or Az.  Why? Because it isn’t as interesting as someone who may be a fan or makes their living dredging up clicks to talk about that. But Jack moving to another market like LA or NY well that can generate clicks.  
 

Eichel isn’t the problem.  It is overlooked that he had that breakout year playing in Ralph’s dogshit d first system. Put him in a position where it is centered around attacking the o zone and he will continue to produce, perhaps more.  I pray KA sees that the current group is a speed first outfit and compliments that with a goalie tandem that can bailout an aggressive offensive team with a Toffoli or Blake coleman type added in.  Whether that can be done with Skinner on the roster is dubious at best.  Until he is gone and we take the pain that it will cost to get rid of him, I think they can potentially make the post season but little more.

[Doohickie]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I'd agree with this 100% if we knew we'd get the Foligno of 2-3 years ago, and I kinda expect him to dig deep and bring it in the playoffs, but he turns 34 in October and his numbers indicate a decline.  They need someone who brings intensity and leadership AND still has enough legs and effectiveness to play in the top 6.

So.... Dylan Cozens.

[LGR4GM]

45 minutes ago, 3putt said:

The discussion about leadership is moronic.  The captaincy is an honorific. The captain does not make trade or lineups or even decide who goes in a SO.  Leadership and example starts at the very top. And I mean the very top.  Not in the locker room. Everyone in the room is a professional being paid to do a job. The Blackhawks did not go down the tubes because they suddenly lost leadership, they lost talent in Hossa Sharp and others. The lightning didn’t win suddenly because of leadership, they brought in better players who executed better than their opponents. The Caps didn’t suddenly become cup champions because of leadership, they adapted their tactics.  

There are too many here who think that the team will suddenly morph into the 74 Flyers with the addition of a tough as they see it individual.  Not how it works. The transformation only comes when an individual stands up for themselves and pushes back. 
 

Winning comes from being better than your opponent and usually is tied to being more talented across the board.  Not one or two players being expected to carry everyone else, but outmatching your opponent through all 4 lines.  And then executing and outscoring them.
 

The idea that your team will be better without a guy who accounts for a third of your team’s offense is ridiculous.  You keep that guy and get rid of the dregs.  The post RK euphoria is a bit of a false flag. There is no pressure, the season is over.  No guarantee they play like that when the season starts again next year. Except that Jack will produce like he has in every year he has been here.  
 

And I find it odd that there is no non-stop media barrage about Larkin wanting out of Detroit or pick whomever out of Ottawa, Anaheim or Az.  Why? Because it isn’t as interesting as someone who may be a fan or makes their living dredging up clicks to talk about that. But Jack moving to another market like LA or NY well that can generate clicks.  
 

Eichel isn’t the problem.  It is overlooked that he had that breakout year playing in Ralph’s dogshit d first system. Put him in a position where it is centered around attacking the o zone and he will continue to produce, perhaps more.  I pray KA sees that the current group is a speed first outfit and compliments that with a goalie tandem that can bailout an aggressive offensive team with a Toffoli or Blake coleman type added in.  Whether that can be done with Skinner on the roster is dubious at best.  Until he is gone and we take the pain that it will cost to get rid of him, I think they can potentially make the post season but little more.

Last year it was just a smidge over 40% of all goals he was involved with. 

Skinner is not getting off this roster. He has a full NMC and his contract is basically untradeable even if that weren't the case. 

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, Hoss said:

Probably nobody. Maybe Samson if freeman will let him but again, probably nobody.

Which is exactly why I'd try to land Nick Foligno. He's a leader, he has local ties, and he can be that guy to teach work ethic and team spirit etc. for the next 3-5 years and then one of the kids takes over (maybe Cozens). 

Sam is definitely not captain material. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

IMO, this Foligno plan smells a lot like bringing in Brian Gionta again. You're going to get a good man, but temper your expectations on the player and expect to overpay on the contract.

It is a little like that but I wouldn't be bringing him in for huge point numbers but for the character and leadership that the young guys can see first hand and learn from. In 3 years or so he's done and Cozens or whoever takes over. 

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It is a little like that but I wouldn't be bringing him in for huge point numbers but for the character and leadership that the young guys can see first hand and learn from. In 3 years or so he's done and Cozens or whoever takes over. 

Your comment sounds the same when the organization brought in Staal, and before that Simmons. Whatever leadership traits you are enamored with that Foligno possess are the same traits that Okposo has. I'm not against adding a player like Foligno but I'm not going to give him a contract that he will want. 

[3putt]

42 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Last year it was just a smidge over 40% of all goals he was involved with. 

Skinner is not getting off this roster. He has a full NMC and his contract is basically untradeable even if that weren't the case. 

I disagree.  It will be expensive and many won’t like what is needed to be given up, but you could move him. He will have to agree, but if he is destined for 4th line spot duty he may and I repeat may be amenable to alternatives.  I do not see the value in trying to rehabilitate his career at the expense of a ride on Jack’s wing.  Perhaps the lightbulb goes on with him, but under RK and now DG he seems to be stuck in doing things his way.  I do not see a fit here.

 

edit

I was ballparking the offensive contribution.

Edited April 27, 2021 by 3putt

[LGR4GM]

48 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Your comment sounds the same when the organization brought in Staal, and before that Simmons. Whatever leadership traits you are enamored with that Foligno possess are the same traits that Okposo has. I'm not against adding a player like Foligno but I'm not going to give him a contract that he will want. 

dont forget gionta b4 that. ott b4 that. 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, 3putt said:

I disagree.  It will be expensive and many won’t like what is needed to be given up, but you could move him. He will have to agree, but if he is destined for 4th line spot duty he may and I repeat may be amenable to alternatives.  I do not see the value in trying to rehabilitate his career at the expense of a ride on Jack’s wing.  Perhaps the lightbulb goes on with him, but under RK and now DG he seems to be stuck in doing things his way.  I do not see a fit here.

 

edit

I was ballparking the offensive contribution.

I personally think that Jack having Skinner on his wing is mutually beneficial.  Jack and the other winger can shoot more (I especially want this if it is Reinhart) and he has a nose for the voids in the defencive zone coverage to cash in the garbage.

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I personally think that Jack having Skinner on his wing is mutually beneficial.  Jack and the other winger can shoot more (I especially want this if it is Reinhart) and he has a nose for the voids in the defencive zone coverage to cash in the garbage.

IMHO, Eichel is better without Skinner.  Skinner's typical game has him around the net looking for loose change to bury and it leaves his linemates necessarily higher in the zone than they would be with a linemate that's not so 1 dimensional.  Eichel had a ton more goals (and a corresponding increase in ppg production) getting away from Skinner.

Now, that said, in the limited chances Skinner got to play with Eichel this year, he wasn't only around the net & he didn't force Jack to stay high in the offensive zone.  And he did seem to be playing more of a team game in general after he was released from the dog house..  So, am willing to give those 2 another look; though still expect the overall offense would be greater with Skinner & Eichel separated. 

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, 3putt said:

The discussion about leadership is moronic.  The captaincy is an honorific. The captain does not make trade or lineups or even decide who goes in a SO.  Leadership and example starts at the very top. And I mean the very top.  Not in the locker room. Everyone in the room is a professional being paid to do a job. The Blackhawks did not go down the tubes because they suddenly lost leadership, they lost talent in Hossa Sharp and others. The lightning didn’t win suddenly because of leadership, they brought in better players who executed better than their opponents. The Caps didn’t suddenly become cup champions because of leadership, they adapted their tactics.  

There are too many here who think that the team will suddenly morph into the 74 Flyers with the addition of a tough as they see it individual.  Not how it works. The transformation only comes when an individual stands up for themselves and pushes back. 
 

Winning comes from being better than your opponent and usually is tied to being more talented across the board.  Not one or two players being expected to carry everyone else, but outmatching your opponent through all 4 lines.  And then executing and outscoring them.
 

The idea that your team will be better without a guy who accounts for a third of your team’s offense is ridiculous.  You keep that guy and get rid of the dregs.  The post RK euphoria is a bit of a false flag. There is no pressure, the season is over.  No guarantee they play like that when the season starts again next year. Except that Jack will produce like he has in every year he has been here.  
 

And I find it odd that there is no non-stop media barrage about Larkin wanting out of Detroit or pick whomever out of Ottawa, Anaheim or Az.  Why? Because it isn’t as interesting as someone who may be a fan or makes their living dredging up clicks to talk about that. But Jack moving to another market like LA or NY well that can generate clicks.  
 

Eichel isn’t the problem.  It is overlooked that he had that breakout year playing in Ralph’s dogshit d first system. Put him in a position where it is centered around attacking the o zone and he will continue to produce, perhaps more.  I pray KA sees that the current group is a speed first outfit and compliments that with a goalie tandem that can bailout an aggressive offensive team with a Toffoli or Blake coleman type added in.  Whether that can be done with Skinner on the roster is dubious at best.  Until he is gone and we take the pain that it will cost to get rid of him, I think they can potentially make the post season but little more.

Agree with it all, just save the bit about not being able to contend necessarily with Skinner here 

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

IMHO, Eichel is better without Skinner.  Skinner's typical game has him around the net looking for loose change to bury and it leaves his linemates necessarily higher in the zone than they would be with a linemate that's not so 1 dimensional.  Eichel had a ton more goals (and a corresponding increase in ppg production) getting away from Skinner.

Now, that said, in the limited chances Skinner got to play with Eichel this year, he wasn't only around the net & he didn't force Jack to stay high in the offensive zone.  And he did seem to be playing more of a team game in general after he was released from the dog house..  So, am willing to give those 2 another look; though still expect the overall offense would be greater with Skinner & Eichel separated. 

It may work out that Skinner can’t go back with Jack, but it would be tough for me to draw a direct line from Skinner being removed from his line to Eichel’s points per game going a bit up when doing so, simply because Jack’s points per game has had a straight trajectory of “up” since he came into the league, all other factors be damned. 

I believe Jack’s best line metrically was the Skinner - Eichel - Reinhart, and I am inclined to believe his points per was headed up last year due to Jack’s age and the natural progression of his career. 

It also went up when Skinner originally joined him, too

Edited April 27, 2021 by Thorny

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

dont forget gionta b4 that. ott b4 that. 

Good examples. Nostalgia isn't a solution. It is a feeble reaching back in time in the improbable hope to move forward. It not only doesn't work but the bang for the buck is never a bargain. 

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Good examples. Nostalgia isn't a solution. It is a feeble reaching back in time in the improbable hope to move forward. It not only doesn't work but the bang for the buck is never a bargain. 

“Nostalgia isn’t a solution” should be tattooed on my body.

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

Your comment sounds the same when the organization brought in Staal, and before that Simmons. Whatever leadership traits you are enamored with that Foligno possess are the same traits that Okposo has. I'm not against adding a player like Foligno but I'm not going to give him a contract that he will want. 

Well they like Simmons in Toronto but no matter.  Yes, that was their Staal argument, not mine. Foligno is a Foligno. 

[LGR4GM]

13 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well they like Simmons in Toronto but no matter.  Yes, that was their Staal argument, not mine. Foligno is a Foligno. 

Good for them in Toronto. I'm sure 4th line Wayne Simmonds is a God send to a team with Joe Thornton and John Tavares. Thank God they got 12 minutes a night Wayne Simmonds to provide all that veteran leadership and toughness.