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Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation


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2 hours ago, Curt said:

None of his teammates have anonymously criticized him, but hasn’t one of his (ex)teammates openly criticized him?

JS Dea was not complimentary.

So what! One ex-teammate criticized him. Not every high profiler player, especially on a losing team, is going to be beloved. In the real world of the locker-room there are factions within the room, as there are in every work place setting. I'm not suggesting that Jack was a perfect teammate or captain. He had flaws (like everyone else) that related to being an intense player who wanted to win on a losing and bottom-feeding team. He showed his emotions when frustrated because he cared. That intolerance for losing shouldn't be an attribute to skewer him for. On the contrary that attitude should have been exhibited even more so from other players.

You might remember in a game against Toronto at home when the visitor fans were taking over the arena when their team seemed to control the play. Jack's response was to make a dynamic play that resulted in a  goal. For a short time he silenced the boisterous visiting crowd. Whatever faults he has I'll take that unbridled passion over an attitude of resignation. 

As I have repeatedly stated I'm not against trading him if the return is substantial. But it seems to me that people are wanting to dispatch him for pennies on the dollar because they resent how he has handled this very challenging situation. @Thorny or someone else some time ago put up a link cataloging Jack's goals . The number of dynamic plays was stunning. Jack hasn't played for some time. Sometimes we forget how good he is.  

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1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Gionta talks about the locker room in Buffalo. It was not complimentary.  The mix of young Jack and Sam, with “vets” like ROR, KANE, Bogo was bad chemistry. 

This criticism is important.  He actually has a Cup ring, as Robin Lehner pointed out.  What he said matters more because he implied they needed to grow up a bit.  ROR clearly did.  The jury has no information on the others.

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59 minutes ago, JohnC said:

So what! One ex-teammate criticized him. Not every high profiler player, especially on a losing team, is going to be beloved. In the real world of the locker-room there are factions within the room, as there are in every work place setting. I'm not suggesting that Jack was a perfect teammate or captain. He had flaws (like everyone else) that related to being an intense player who wanted to win on a losing and bottom-feeding team. He showed his emotions when frustrated because he cared. That intolerance for losing shouldn't be an attribute to skewer him for. On the contrary that attitude should have been exhibited even more so from other players.

You might remember in a game against Toronto at home when the visitor fans were taking over the arena when their team seemed to control the play. Jack's response was to make a dynamic play that resulted in a  goal. For a short time he silenced the boisterous visiting crowd. Whatever faults he has I'll take that unbridled passion over an attitude of resignation. 

As I have repeatedly stated I'm not against trading him if the return is substantial. But it seems to me that people are wanting to dispatch him for pennies on the dollar because they resent how he has handled this very challenging situation. @Thorny or someone else some time ago put up a link cataloging Jack's goals . The number of dynamic plays was stunning. Jack hasn't played for some time. Sometimes we forget how good he is.  

Ya, there's a pretty strong common denominator with these good players we keep shipping out. The Ryan O'Reillys, the Jack Eichels and the Sam Reinharts: from interviews given they all appear to have "lost their love of the game" playing here. Fans seem to be responding much the same way Star Wars fans respond when a non-fan rips rips Phantom Menace: "HEY now, WE can torch it, it's different coming from you". The frustration the majority of fans feel and exhibit towards the organization isn't something those same fans can accept seeing from a professional athlete on said team. They take it personally. 
 

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47 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I wonder how long Jack will be in Buffalo for. Will he just show up, fail a physical and go home? 

 

Maybe he passes the physical! That would be interesting. I'd love to have him ready to skate on opening night. 

Part of me wonders if excelling in the pre-season would be enough to get someone to pony up an acceptable return.

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3 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

So we're going to trust a ahler? Got it .

 

He was a teammate of Eichel’s.  His impression of Eichel is negative.  He said so publicly.  These are facts.

It doesn’t mean that Eichel is a garbage person, but I have no reason to doubt that Dea is telling the truth about how he feels.

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Gionta talks about the locker room in Buffalo. It was not complimentary.  The mix of young Jack and Sam, with “vets” like ROR, KANE, Bogo was bad chemistry. 

Yeah, Gionta hasn’t said anything negative about Eichel specifically, that I know of.  It was more of a criticism of the locker room dynamics as a whole.  Although, I don’t recall him going out of his way to say that Eichel is a great guy in the room or anything.

It’s one small piece of information that can be fit into a larger puzzle to form a picture.

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

So what! One ex-teammate criticized him. Not every high profiler player, especially on a losing team, is going to be beloved. In the real world of the locker-room there are factions within the room, as there are in every work place setting. I'm not suggesting that Jack was a perfect teammate or captain. He had flaws (like everyone else) that related to being an intense player who wanted to win on a losing and bottom-feeding team. He showed his emotions when frustrated because he cared. That intolerance for losing shouldn't be an attribute to skewer him for. On the contrary that attitude should have been exhibited even more so from other players.

You might remember in a game against Toronto at home when the visitor fans were taking over the arena when their team seemed to control the play. Jack's response was to make a dynamic play that resulted in a  goal. For a short time he silenced the boisterous visiting crowd. Whatever faults he has I'll take that unbridled passion over an attitude of resignation. 

As I have repeatedly stated I'm not against trading him if the return is substantial. But it seems to me that people are wanting to dispatch him for pennies on the dollar because they resent how he has handled this very challenging situation. @Thorny or someone else some time ago put up a link cataloging Jack's goals . The number of dynamic plays was stunning. Jack hasn't played for some time. Sometimes we forget how good he is.  

So what!?!?!?

This is our conversation:

You: “What you haven't heard during this extended interlude is any of his teammates anonymously criticizing him. That is telling.”

Me: Well actually JS Dea did do exactly that.

You: “So what?  One ex-teammate criticized him.”

Do you not see how that’s kind of ridiculous?

This, in the super cautious and polite NHL where you hardly hear anyone say a bad word about anyone else.  It was an extremely unusual thing to hear one player say about another.

Anyway, you say that maybe Eichel is not beloved by his teammates, maybe there are different factions in the dressing room.  I think maybe you are right.  I think that’s a negative thing.  That’s all I’m saying.  No more, no less.

Edited by Curt
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19 minutes ago, Curt said:

He was a teammate of Eichel’s.  His impression of Eichel is negative.  He said so publicly.  These are facts.

It doesn’t mean that Eichel is a garbage person, but I have no reason to doubt that Dea is telling the truth about how he feels.

Yeah, Gionta hasn’t said anything negative about Eichel specifically, that I know of.  It was more of a criticism of the locker room dynamics as a whole.  Although, I don’t recall him going out of his way to say that Eichel is a great guy in the room or anything.

It’s one small piece of information that can be fit into a larger puzzle to form a picture.

So what!?!?!?

This is our conversation:

You: “What you haven't heard during this extended interlude is any of his teammates anonymously criticizing him. That is telling.”

Me: Well actually JS Dea did do exactly that.

You: “So what?  One ex-teammate criticized him.”

Do you not see how that’s kind of ridiculous?

This, in the super cautious and polite NHL where you hardly hear anyone say a bad word about anyone else.  It was an extremely unusual thing to hear one player say about another.

Anyway, you say that maybe Eichel is not beloved by his teammates, maybe there are different factions in the dressing room.  I think maybe you are right.  I think that’s a negative thing.  That’s all I’m saying.  No more, no less.

That’s exactly the point (re: the bold). The scale is weighted so ridiculously that former coaches, teammates, accepted leaders like McCabe can come out with glowing comments on Jack but if we’re made aware of one guy who doesn’t like him, it’s “part of a larger puzzle”. 

Let’s just make sure to use all the pieces. The evidence here IMO doesn’t point to some sort of 50/50 split, either. The curve these guys have their character evaluated on though is quite steep. 

Edited by Thorny
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30 minutes ago, Curt said:

Yeah, Gionta hasn’t said anything negative about Eichel specifically, that I know of.  It was more of a criticism of the locker room dynamics as a whole.  Although, I don’t recall him going out of his way to say that Eichel is a great guy in the room or anything.

Yes I agree.  Gionta did not say anything specifically bad about Eichel but he did not say anything positive either other than that he was and is a talented player.  I think that Gionta not being able to say anything towards Eichel's character or leadership speaks volumes.

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I was going to type a snarky, "Mr. Ligerchev, tear down this wall!" But I've found the last few posts very interesting. Alas, they are really not on topic (unless the speculation is that Jack isn't a good leader, which I don't it is). Not to beat a dead horse, but having a mega-Eichel trade thread that turns into a mega-Eichel thread is not good. Lots of posters won't come into this thread, because of how useless it has been. So maybe the useful info on Jack's character could be split into a new thread.

Edited by PASabreFan
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Wait wait wait hold up - so one of the strongest arguments apparently for Jack being a poor influence in the room is Gionta “saying nothing”? 

We sure this isn’t just a case of people filling in an unknown with their already constructed narrative? 

Don’t really need to ask the question I suppose when I can just drop another mic:

“Lot of stuff came down yesterday, some unfair criticism his way,’’ Gionta said of Eichel. “He’s a great guy in the room, great teammate, he wants to do everything to win and he’s a young kid maturing. I think he feels a lot of the pressure for what he is, the face of the franchise at 19, 20 years old who is supposed to come in and revive the entire organization.“

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.democratandchronicle.com/amp/100740266

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23 hours ago, French Collection said:

My son’s U18 team motto this season is “fit in or f*** off”

I kind of like this message. Fit into the team culture, the way they play etc. But players' personalities can certainly not "fit in." Look no farther than one Dom Hasek. If you look at one of the best Sabres teams ever and one of the best Bills teams ever, there was clearly a Lincolnesque "Team of Rivals" tension that stirred up creative tension and ultimately production. The Bickering Bills and whatever we'd want to call the '97 Sabres eventually ended up in near-glory, and it wasn't because everyone held hands and sang Shout!/Celebrate-Celebrate-The-Tradition.

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3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Gionta talks about the locker room in Buffalo. It was not complimentary.  The mix of young Jack and Sam, with “vets” like ROR, KANE, Bogo was bad chemistry. 

I found Gionta’s remarks very telling. He and Gorges tried to provide the right example in team leadership, but instead, the young guys rejected that and gravitated towards a group that never exhibited those traits to begin with. I’m sure Bogo and Kane showed them how to cut and snort a proper rail though. 

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5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I found Gionta’s remarks very telling. He and Gorges tried to provide the right example in team leadership, but instead, the young guys rejected that and gravitated towards a group that never exhibited those traits to begin with. I’m sure Bogo and Kane showed them how to cut and snort a proper rail though. 

I agree with everything in this post.

Except the completely unfounded and unneeded last sentence.  If you care to edit that out I will delete this post.

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8 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I agree with everything in this post.

Except the completely unfounded and unneeded last sentence.  If you care to edit that out I will delete this post.

Depends on who you talk to in certain places, I guess. But to be clear, I’m not accusing Eichel or Reinhart of partaking, just gravitating towards veterans whom I often heard did. 

That last sentence speaks to the point about rejecting the leadership example set by Gianta and Gorges vs. the example accepted from others. And I put that failure completely on Tim Murray for surrounding that young talent with the likes of Bogo and Kane to begin with. 

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1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Depends on who you talk to in certain places, I guess. But to be clear, I’m not accusing Eichel or Reinhart of partaking, just gravitating towards veterans whom I often heard did. 

That last sentence speaks to the point about rejecting the leadership example set by Gianta and Gorges vs. the example accepted from others. And I put that failure completely on Tim Murray for surrounding that young talent with the likes of Bogo and Kane to begin with. 

I understand that.  My opinion is that you made your main point very clearly and very goodly (😎) and you didn't need the last sentence, which is hearsay at best.

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1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Wait wait wait hold up - so one of the strongest arguments apparently for Jack being a poor influence in the room is Gionta “saying nothing”? 

We sure this isn’t just a case of people filling in an unknown with their already constructed narrative? 

Don’t really need to ask the question I suppose when I can just drop another mic:

“Lot of stuff came down yesterday, some unfair criticism his way,’’ Gionta said of Eichel. “He’s a great guy in the room, great teammate, he wants to do everything to win and he’s a young kid maturing. I think he feels a lot of the pressure for what he is, the face of the franchise at 19, 20 years old who is supposed to come in and revive the entire organization.“

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.democratandchronicle.com/amp/100740266

Most people in general can find something nice to say about another especially when it's on record (radio interview or in print).  I took my views on Gionta's comments from an Instigators episode (sorry I'm not going to go and find it).  They were talking about who should be the next team captain.  Gionta did not come out and speak highly of Eichel as a captain and Gionta and Rivet have both been captains in their history so I took the lack of endorsement as a message.  But that's just me.  None of us really knows because we are not on the team or teammates with him.

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33 minutes ago, Digger said:

Most people in general can find something nice to say about another especially when it's on record (radio interview or in print).  I took my views on Gionta's comments from an Instigators episode (sorry I'm not going to go and find it).  They were talking about who should be the next team captain.  Gionta did not come out and speak highly of Eichel as a captain and Gionta and Rivet have both been captains in their history so I took the lack of endorsement as a message.  But that's just me.  None of us really knows because we are not on the team or teammates with him.

Yes, we do know. Gionta said Eichel is good in the room in the quote I posted. People were mistakingly saying that Gionta never spoke on Jack's character, only his talent. And then pretending that he must have a poor view on Jack because of this, to fit their narrative. This is in fact false. 

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3 hours ago, Curt said:

Although, I don’t recall him going out of his way to say that Eichel is a great guy in the room or anything.

 

2 hours ago, Digger said:

Yes I agree.  Gionta did not say anything specifically bad about Eichel but he did not say anything positive either other than that he was and is a talented player.  I think that Gionta not being able to say anything towards Eichel's character or leadership speaks volumes.

It can't speak volumes if there is a literal instance of him speaking to Jack's character. You have no basis for assuming the "silence" in a particular instance means anything when you are only guessing to begin with and it's been documented Gionta feels a different way. 

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Fwiw: Gionta on Eichel

“Lot of stuff came down yesterday, some unfair criticism his way,’’ Gionta said of Eichel. “He’s a great guy in the room, great teammate, he wants to do everything to win and he’s a young kid maturing. I think he feels a lot of the pressure for what he is, the face of the franchise at 19, 20 years old who is supposed to come in and revive the entire organization.

“He said it at his end-of-year news conference, 'There’s a difference between saying you want to win and doing the things to put yourself and your team in position to win.' That’s where we need to go as an organization and as players, look to what we can contribute to help a winning culture.’’

Linkypoo 

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3 hours ago, Curt said:

 

Anyway, you say that maybe Eichel is not beloved by his teammates, maybe there are different factions in the dressing room.  I think maybe you are right.  I think that’s a negative thing.  That’s all I’m saying.  No more, no less.

Where I haver a different perspective from you on this locker room attitude issue is that it is rare that there is as much unanimity and warmth among all the players and even the coaches in the room that you seem to believe exists in most locker rooms. Considering the wide array of personalities and different nationalities and backgrounds it is not as tightly knitted as you make it out to be. That's all I'm saying. No more, no less. 

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3 hours ago, Thorny said:

That’s exactly the point (re: the bold). The scale is weighted so ridiculously that former coaches, teammates, accepted leaders like McCabe can come out with glowing comments on Jack but if we’re made aware of one guy who doesn’t like him, it’s “part of a larger puzzle”. 

Let’s just make sure to use all the pieces. The evidence here IMO doesn’t point to some sort of 50/50 split, either. The curve these guys have their character evaluated on though is quite steep. 

I have not heard former NHL coaches and teammates come out with glowing comments about Jack.   I would love to see a quote from Bylsma, Housley, McCabe or anyone extolling Jack’s virtues.   

I know he liked Matt Moulson and benefitted from living with him and his family.  Perhaps he needed more of that mentoring and less of the Kane/Bogo influence?  I saw your Gionta quote from 2017.  Gionta is a class act that was not going to rail on him in the media.  I have no doubt that back in 2017 Jack was still an impressionable 19-20 year old, seemingly carrying the weight of the team on his shoulders.  

Four years have past since this quote and Jack has assumed leadership of the team.   It was his team under Ralph, and they brought in veterans to help, something Jack wanted, and even that became a disaster.  Jack probably learned that liking Ralph didn’t matter, he was a bad NHL coach, and getting a good coach and playing through another rebuild would take time.   Three coaches and two GMs are gone since the Gionta quote from 2017,  and we are still a bottom feeder and Jack wants out.  He clearly has no faith in the organization.  

I have heard direct comments from alumni, a current hockey operations staff member, and a current PSE business exec and they were not positive or complimentary.    I do know that boys will be boys, and most hockey players are not choir boys, and some are extremely competitive.   His talent will cause others to overlook any negative aspects of his personality.  

He does not want to play for the Sabres.   I think he will be traded, but only when a deal can be made that improves this team.  

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1 hour ago, Thorny said:

 

It can't speak volumes if there is a literal instance of him speaking to Jack's character. You have no basis for assuming the "silence" in a particular instance means anything when you are only guessing to begin with and it's been documented Gionta feels a different way. 

Wow, you are really REALLY going out of your way to defend Jack and try to dispute everything anyone says to the negative of him. 

Let me try to put it this way....a lot of us can't quantify exactly why we have the feeling we have, we couldn't defend our feelings like a lawyer in a court of law...apparently that is what you expect of us.

HOWEVER, there is basis for that feeling we have.  When this team has had other captains, MORE has come out positive about them than there has been about Jack.  You may not think JS Dea matters because he was a minor league player mostly, but the truth is of the other captains the Sabres have had, we do not remember any of that talk coming about them EVEN from a Minor leaguer.  

So can we quantify and defend our exact feelings with specific examples for you to try to take apart? Maybe some of us can, but others of us simply do not have the time to look it up. What we do know is there is more negative about Jacks leadership (even if it is from a minor leaguer, that is still more than most other captains have had), and there is LESS positive we hear of (Gionta may have said good things about him once, but 'other captains' have had positive things said about them much more, from our own personal observation).

And as Pimlach above just said, where is that list of glowing comments about Jack's leadership from former respected players and coaches?  If there is anything I heard along those lines...it is just the basic stuff they have to say, nothing where they go on and on about just how good of a leader he is.  You know where I don't hear anything positive about his leadership?  Anywhere outside of Buffalo.  Listen to some national talk (canadian stations) and you will hear them talk about other teams captains who are good leaders...even guys on not-so-good teams...but you don't hear that about Jack from outside sources who have contacts in the league.

Edited by mjd1001
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19 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I have not heard former NHL coaches and teammates come out with glowing comments about Jack.   I would love to see a quote from Bylsma, Housley, McCabe or anyone extolling Jack’s virtues.   

Ya, I mean...I literally posted quotes from those guys, and a video of McCabe thoroughly praising Eichel. From this offseason. 

The discussion is disingenuous at this point. There's no point in me continuing to post proof of what his contemporaries think of him when they all get less attention and recognition combined that a comment by JS Dea. 

You aren't even reading the posts. Meh. 

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