Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Would love to listen on KA's first conversation with Brisson.    

"Do you want to be an agent here or just pretend to be an agent here? Some guys just like to carry the key card, badge...cry on tv"

Edited August 27, 2021 by Thorny

[Hoss]

22 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Brisson is also Owen Power’s agent.

Personally, I see this as a move that could shake loose the logjam.

Brisson has way more clout and connections than Fish. He could bridge communication gaps and leverage something here.

When Peter Fish responded to texts from producers at local news stations I knew that guy wasn’t good enough at his job.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

When Peter Fish responded to texts from producers at local news stations I knew that guy wasn’t good enough at his job.

 

 

[dudacek]

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I was just under the impression that you yourself believed that when Eichel arrived last year, and showed himself to be an MVP level player at 24, that that was the real him, at least for the next 5 years. 

Yes, this has been my personal opinion.

I lot of my recent posts are me trying to reconcile that opinion with the fact that GMs don’t seem to share it. Asking myself why that is, and throwing out possible answers.

Unlike most hockey fans, I don’t think all GMs are idiots. So my default tends to be that they have information I don’t.

 

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

 

That Philbony comment is so spot on. ( @Thorny fits with what we were just talking about)

Hopefully Brisson can rehabilitate Jack’s value.

[Cascade Youth]

5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

 

This is an underrated point.  Fish's strategy of using a medical issue to create a wedge with the Sabres had the consequence of lowering his value and market to the point where a deal couldn't get done.  It was totally stupid.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Yes, this has been my personal opinion.

I lot of my recent posts are me trying to reconcile that opinion with the fact that GMs don’t seem to share it. Asking myself why that is, and throwing out possible answers.

Unlike most hockey fans, I don’t think all GMs are idiots. So my default tends to be that they have information I don’t.

 

I think Occam's razor here though is injury concern, and standard "lowball a team with questionable leverage moving a key asset who wants out" gamesmanship. 

I don't think what he is, on ice, is being questioned. I honestly don't. 

MVP-quality Jack arrived in 2019. We can't say he'll be healthy, but if he is, I'm confident that's Jack. 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don't think they are either. GMs forgive all if it comes to wins. But I believe they are a consideration.

You can talk about 19/20 being the peak of a steady upward trend, or you can also talk about it being an outlier under optimum conditions. Where he had a coach who kissed his ass daily, fed him all the ice time he wanted, in the way he wanted it, with exactly the linemates he wanted (i.e. not Skinner). And the team still sucked.

Over his career Jack is roughly a 25-goal, 70-point scorer who has played 70 games just twice. He makes $10 million and appears to be high-maintenance.

That — not a top-10 MVP candidate — is what his track record shows, and the price a prudent GM pays.

That is why no one is bucking up Zegras Comtois Perreault and a 1st.

Jack is also an amazing talent. This year is also an outlier. That's why the Sabres have not, and should not, settled for Kravtsov, Jones and Georgiev.

At some point an offer will hit a sweet spot in between.

Another good post. The bolded is important.  GMs know coaches.  Many have been coaches.  Hockey coaches do not like players telling them who they will play with and who they won’t (Skinner).  Some may feel the team may not have “sucked” as much if the coach wasn’t trying to please his star player(s).  A GM has to think of the coach and the teamchemistry, something Murray never did.  

I try avoid the character issue side of it, don’t want to have answer the inevitable “prove it” questions, but those issues are there and the hockey community talks.  

I still believe his best year 19-20, while an outlier, is just a sample of what could come.  I think a healthy Eichel can be a star.    I support KA playing hardball.  He has to establish himself within his peers but at some point he needs to find the win-win and move this on.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

That Philbony comment is so spot on. ( @Thorny fits with what we were just talking about)

Hopefully Brisson can rehabilitate Jack’s value.

Eichel’s presser and his agents actions related to the medical side certainly made GMs pause.  
 

[LGR4GM]

12 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Another good post. The bolded is important.  GMs know coaches.  Many have been coaches.  Hockey coaches do not like players telling who they will play with and who they won’t (Skinner).  Some may feel the team may not have “sucked” as much if the coach wasn’t trying to please his star player(s).  So the GM had to think of the coach and chemistry, something Murray never did.  

I try avoid the character issue side of it, don’t want to have answer the inevitable “prove it” questions, but those issues are there and the hockey community talks.  

I still believe his best year 19-20, while an outlier, is just a sample of what could come.  I think a healthy Eichel can be a star.    I support KA playing hardball.  He has to establish himself within his peers but at some point he needs to find the win-win and move this on.  

We now believe that Eichel didn't want to play with Skinner? 

***** we just love making ***** up around here. 

[darksabre]

17 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

This is an underrated point.  Fish's strategy of using a medical issue to create a wedge with the Sabres had the consequence of lowering his value and market to the point where a deal couldn't get done.  It was totally stupid.

Hmmmmmmm

 

 

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

We now believe that Eichel didn't want to play with Skinner? 

***** we just love making ***** up around here. 

It’s one of the Eichel stories that has leaked.  I’m not going to prove it and give away anyone.  Now I’m seeing other posters/people talk about it.   
 

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

We now believe that Eichel didn't want to play with Skinner? 

***** we just love making ***** up around here. 

I think there is more evidence supporting this hypothesis than Marco Rossi getting 65 points this year, but your mileage may vary. 😜

Edited August 27, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

Maybe Eichel didn't want to play with Skinner in 2018-19 too, because he, like us, saw how dumb it would be to bump Skinner up to 40 goals in a contract year

DERP 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think there is more evidence supporting this hypothesis than Marco Rossi getting 65 points this year, but your mileage may vary. 😜

Don't you talk about my baby like that!

[Thorny]

Regardless of how this plays out, the fact that there WAS such a long drawn out process will only work in the team's favor, imo, in terms of perception. This has dragged out for so long, many people I think have already processed the fact we are losing Eichel. He's not really seen as a part of the Sabres anymore, I don't expect outrage when the deal goes down, even if the return is arguably sub-standard. I think the same deal 2 months ago garners a much different reaction than that deal tomorrow. For some people, Eichel is already "gone", so only the pieces coming back in the deal will alter the equation of what the Sabres "are", in a sense. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Regardless of how this plays out, the fact that there WAS such a long drawn out process will only work in the team's favor, imo, in terms of perception. This has dragged out for so long, many people I think have already processed the fact we are losing Eichel. He's not really seen as a part of the Sabres anymore, I don't expect outrage when the deal goes down, even if the return is arguably sub-standard. I think the same deal 2 months ago garners a much different reaction than that deal tomorrow. For some people, Eichel is already "gone", so only the pieces coming back in the deal will alter the equation of what the Sabres "are", in a sense. 

Not speaking for everyone, but for me personally, the return very much will dictate how I feel about this. I am also in the camp that he is as good as gone but they botch the return... woof. 

[LabattBlue]

If Eichel and his doctor are so confident in this disc replacement surgery, go against the Sabres wishes, have the surgery and if the Sabres void his contract, he will be good to go heath wise(or so he believes), and will be able to sign with whatever team he wishes...even if he has to sign a 1 year prove it deal. 
 

 

If not, two choices...

 

1. Retire

2. STFU and follow advice of Sabres team doctors. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by LabattBlue

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Not speaking for everyone, but for me personally, the return very much will dictate how I feel about this. I am also in the camp that he is as good as gone but they botch the return... woof. 

I think the grind has affected me enough that I accept he has to go.

Once you get there, it’s easy to say “they waited this long, that’s obviously the most they could have got.”

Even if the return itself pisses me off. 

4 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

If Eichel and his doctor are so confident in this disc replacement surgery, go against the Sabres wishes, have the surgery and if the Sabres void his contract, he will be good to go heath wise(or so he believes), and will be able to sign with whatever team he wishes...even if he has to sign a 1 year prove it deal. 

New agent allows Jack to hit the reset button and blame Fish for everything.

I would be shocked if he took the extreme route you suggest under Brisson.

Brisson will talk to the Sabres, talk to the suitors, talk to Jack and figure out why the process has broken down.

And if there’s a path out, he has the clout to put all parties in it.

[7+6=13]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

More to it than that, though. On the best day, with a fully healthy Jack, history shows it's difficult to trade the best player in a deal and come out on the winning end of it. The trade is a perilous one to make regardless of the things you mention we are waiting on.

I get that you are saying within the context of the situation that we don't "lose" under the scenario where he really is hurt and we get the according return, but I'm saying: of course we lose. I'm speaking in the macro, though. Even if we make out "good" on the trade, having to trade your franchise C for a low return because he got seriously hurt is definitely "losing". It's definitely a disadvantageous situation. Maybe no one to blame, but that's not the point I'm making. 

I think you're missing my main point with what amounts to nothing but hypothetical scenarios.   I can just as easily make up scenarios where KA isn't an idiot.   

[Digger]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Brisson will talk to the Sabres, talk to the suitors, talk to Jack and figure out why the process has broken down.

And if there’s a path out, he has the clout to put all parties in it.

I agree with you on this point.  I think Brisson sold Jack on mediating the situation and getting to a resolution.  Work together instead of working against each other.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

I think you're missing my main point with what amounts to nothing but hypothetical scenarios.   I can just as easily make up scenarios where KA isn't an idiot.   

I'm not saying he's an idiot? I'm saying, for any GM, at the best of times, it's difficult to pull off a trade of a star player

It's a situation you'd preferably not be in. That's pretty much it

[PromoTheRobot]

44 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

If Eichel and his doctor are so confident in this disc replacement surgery, go against the Sabres wishes, have the surgery and if the Sabres void his contract, he will be good to go heath wise(or so he believes), and will be able to sign with whatever team he wishes...even if he has to sign a 1 year prove it deal. 
 

 

If not, two choices...

 

1. Retire

2. STFU and follow advice of Sabres team doctors. 

Question: Who pays for the surgery if the Sabres aren't? I bet that's the bigger rub. 

[pi2000]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Question: Who pays for the surgery if the Sabres aren't? I bet that's the bigger rub. 

Buffalo only pays if their doctor's are onboard.   

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Question: Who pays for the surgery if the Sabres aren't? I bet that's the bigger rub. 

Doubt it. According to some quick searching, it costs about $35,000 in Germany for this. Considering most here say you go to Europe for it, I would use that as a baseline. Not a lot of money for someone who made 10 million bucks last year.