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Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation


LGR4GM
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12 hours ago, Shmuffalo said:

Speculation, but think it's come to the point, they agree, Johnny needs surgery.  Now, which surgery is the issue.  From listening to the 31 Thoughts Pod, reading about the surgery... worst case, the artificial disc fails, and he gets the fusion - unless the doctor is full of sh--, it sounds reasonable ( from an insurance standpoint, assuming the contract is insured - it may not sound reasonable).

Basically, I don't know what the hell is going to happen.

The traditional surgery is a fusion; John's doctor wants the artificial disc, and if it should fail, its the fusion. At least from my understanding.

 

 

"We'll give you our top prospects for him!"

---No one 

Been distraught reading this thread the last hour.   

It's over.  He isn't going anywhere right now.  No team is going to do this especially since they may only have him for 4 seasons of that contract (if he has to miss 2021 or most of it).  

 

 

The only thing that makes sense is Jack is trying to force a trade to a team he wants to go to and that team can win now with or without him but will not give up more then what will be first round picks in the 20s and a few mid to decent prospects.  

KA might just have to do it.  Eichel's team is banking on it.  In a weird way because of the injury and salary Jack does have more leverage.  And he's deliberately made it worse with the public comments last week. 

 

Edited by Second Line Center
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9 hours ago, Shmuffalo said:

That's my point; I only set is a hypothetical, but if he gets "his" surgery, the contract becomes voidable ... the question turns to how much time does the team have should the surgery go wrong? Inaction (not immediately terminating the contract after material breach) is often viewed as action (it was a breach, however the team failed to act in "x" amount of time, and it's viewed as permission or barred by some contractual timeline).  

I don't know if the Sabres can have their cake and eat it too.

Saying this, I fully expect news to break we acquired Kaapo Kakko and a conditional 3rd for Eichel (Retaining 20% of his Cap) in the coming weeks.  (shoot me).

 

 

No I think you nailed it.  

But we'll get their first.  Protected of course.   

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Getting 4 players for one is tough in NHL.  You add 10 mill and one player, you are going to need those prospects (because of the their lower cap hit) to fill out the roster.  Giving draft picks is different, there are a bunch of variables - does he develop, skills, what number is the pick (not round but is it top 10 or 50th),etc .  Sabres want 5 players or 4 = tough to get.  Sabres also have cap space this year to eat a bad contract to put on the KO Skinner line, but that will slow down the development of the current players on the team and slow down the rebuild.  This could end up in court over Jack's current contract and injury mess (as mentioned above).

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Posted (edited)

Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder. 

So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark. 

Edited by LGR4GM
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20 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes, but why have that issue hanging over KA’s head?

It's only a big deal if the Sabres want to get rid of Eichel. At this point in time they want to get rid of him because he's a distraction and he wants to leave. If he was invoking his NMC in the future then he only wants to leave under specific circumstances. In other words he's willing to stay if the trade isn't just so. The NMC then becomes a mostly empty threat. 

 

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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder. 

So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark. 

So, reasonably speaking, if Eichel has the value of Jones (he should have more) we should expect a minimum fair market return of:

  • Jack Eichel for Othmann, Schneider, 2022 1st
  • Jack Eichel for Wallstedt, Boldy, 2022 1st
  • Jack Eichel for Perreault, Comtois, 2022 1st

I wonder if these are the kinds of offers currently on the table

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Think there is little doubt KA would move Jack in a heartbeat if he was offered anything that he thought he could justify to the fans. Other teams have to be cautious not only of Jack's health but also they need to wonder if maybe he is a cancer or not a good "team" player. 

   And like a divorce,  nice things are said and all but truth be told the separation it will only get worse and nastier between the team and Jack. he clearly wants out and they clearly wish to move him but obviously they can;t give him away (although they came close with Sam). Risto was a complete fluke as Philly made a terrible trade and gave far too much which makes KA look like a genius, In reality I figured he'd get like maybe a 2nd or 3rd for Risto. 

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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder. 

So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark. 

When Seth Jones was traded for a generous return he was healthy. The team that acquired him knew that next season he would be playing at the high level he had been playing at. That doesn't come close to resembling the Jack situation. As it stands there are no guarantees that Jack will play next year or ever return to his elite form. 

Edited by JohnC
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One of the things that I think some people might be forgetting, (and I apologize if this has been brought up already) is that small market teams out there have almost zero chance of landing an elite player like Eichel, unless you get lucky to draft one.  More than likely, those type of players won’t be signing with you in free agency.  They are going to want big market exposure and the fame and fortune that comes with it.  
So this might be the only chance a team like Minnesota has to getting an elite player like Eichel.  

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54 minutes ago, Mr. Allen said:

One of the things that I think some people might be forgetting, (and I apologize if this has been brought up already) is that small market teams out there have almost zero chance of landing an elite player like Eichel, unless you get lucky to draft one.  More than likely, those type of players won’t be signing with you in free agency.  They are going to want big market exposure and the fame and fortune that comes with it.  
So this might be the only chance a team like Minnesota has to getting an elite player like Eichel.  

agreed or the only chance Buffalo may get to have one too! Crazy to trade away talent such as Sam and/or Jack. I really hoped they'd just re-sign Sam and get Jack healthy and back playing and with proper NHL goal tending (which we still do not have) they may have been a pretty good team. Now there is no hope of that in the near future (if ever).  

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1 hour ago, JohnC said:

When Seth Jones was traded for a generous return he was healthy. The team that acquired him knew that next season he would be playing at the high level he had been playing at. That doesn't come close to resembling the Jack situation. As it stands there are no guarantees that Jack will play next year or ever return to his elite form. 

Again, no one is saying this. Doctors, media, randos. Everyone is saying that Eichel will play next season which is why he wants surgery now so he misses no time. The difference is will he get artificial disc replacement or fusion surgery. The fusion surgery would have him miss about 1 month of the season. Literally no one is expecting Eichel to not play at all next year. Seth Jones is far less talented to the risk of getting Eichel, a top 10 center in the league is worth it compared to Jones. 

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2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Again, no one is saying this. Doctors, media, randos. Everyone is saying that Eichel will play next season which is why he wants surgery now so he misses no time. The difference is will he get artificial disc replacement or fusion surgery. The fusion surgery would have him miss about 1 month of the season. Literally no one is expecting Eichel to not play at all next year. Seth Jones is far less talented to the risk of getting Eichel, a top 10 center in the league is worth it compared to Jones. 

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Allen said:

One of the things that I think some people might be forgetting, (and I apologize if this has been brought up already) is that small market teams out there have almost zero chance of landing an elite player like Eichel, unless you get lucky to draft one.  More than likely, those type of players won’t be signing with you in free agency.  They are going to want big market exposure and the fame and fortune that comes with it.  
So this might be the only chance a team like Minnesota has to getting an elite player like Eichel.  

I'm not disagreeing with your point, but Minnesota isn't exactly small market.  I would say they are mid-market, knocking on the door of 'top 10 market'.  

Remember this is a team that attracted BOTH Zach Parise and Ryan Suter at about the same time when they were very desired players.

-Forbes Franchise value has them ranked in the top half of the NHL (mid teens). -In terms of Cities with NHL teams, they are 12th in terms of market size (top half for sure). -In terms of GDP produced by the region, they are also 12th.  In terms of TV ratings, that region is usually in the top 5 in the USA for the NHL, as that part of the country probably supports the NHL/Hockey as good as anywhere in the USA (right up there with Boston long term.)  Even their ownership group's wealth is in the Billions.  Depending on where you look (I have looked a few places), he is anywhere from the 8th to the 11th richest owner in the NHL with wealth above $4 billion.

 

Edited by mjd1001
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24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

Internet posters (mostly from the Northeast meaning Boston NY etc) who's ammo is to talk down a player in hope that their team sharks that player for 30 cents on the dollar, and those internet posters will be the first ones after the deal to pump out their chest and brag how they 'stole' that player.

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14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

These surgeries do have a success rate. I have had two back surgeries (aware not exactly the same). A successful surgery for me is different than a successful surgery for a hockey player who plays professionally in a crash sport. The referencing to McCabe's, Ullmark's and Tuch's surgeries are not relatable to Jack's surgery. These aforementioned surgeries are procedures that are not uncommon in hockey. There is usually a standard rehab timetable. That's not the case with Jack's situation. As it stands there hasn't even been agreement in which is the most suitable surgery. And if the surgery he has works out there is no guarantee that even if he can get back on the ice, which I believe he will, will he be able to play at the level he did prior to his injury.  

 

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54 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Internet posters (mostly from the Northeast meaning Boston NY etc) who's ammo is to talk down a player in hope that their team sharks that player for 30 cents on the dollar, and those internet posters will be the first ones after the deal to pump out their chest and brag how they 'stole' that player.

Is this a thing? Do GMs and directors of professional scouting really go to message boards for intel?

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46 minutes ago, JohnC said:

These surgeries do have a success rate. I have had two back surgeries (aware not exactly the same). A successful surgery for me is different than a successful surgery for a hockey player who plays professionally in a crash sport. The referencing to McCabe's, Ullmark's and Tuch's surgeries are not relatable to Jack's surgery. These aforementioned surgeries are procedures that are not uncommon in hockey. There is usually a standard rehab timetable. That's not the case with Jack's situation. As it stands there hasn't even been agreement in which is the most suitable surgery. And if the surgery he has works out there is no guarantee that even if he can get back on the ice, which I believe he will, will he be able to play at the level he did prior to his injury.  

 

The only difference is that the surgery Jack wants has not been tried on an NHL player.

Jack wants that surgery, primarily, because he wants to accelerate his recovery time; it is a known factor 

Everything else in your post is based on the twin suppositions that Jack is getting the surgery he wants and the acquiring team is not comfortable with the risk - an extremely unlikely combination.

No team would be willing to trade for Jack Eichel and his $50 million contract under those circumstances, no matter the price, and they wouldn’t be making offers.

 

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17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Jack wants that surgery, primarily, because he wants to accelerate his recovery time; it is a known factor 

Should also add that ADR leads to a better long-term quality of life, as you keep your full range of motion.  I'm roughly Jack's age, and if I had a herniated cervical disc that would be the bigger motivating factor to me.

Agree with the rest, I just wanted to add that point.  Carry on!

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5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder. 

So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark. 

Well, one, this is the ice rink, baby. Two... exactly.  We know where KA stands, not ... literally.   Im not exactly hopeful our return is the exact ask, but thought, other teams would cave first ... this Anti Eichel PR from Flounder and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Donatell[o] is fu--ing weird.

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2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Again, no one is saying this. Doctors, media, randos. Everyone is saying that Eichel will play next season which is why he wants surgery now so he misses no time. The difference is will he get artificial disc replacement or fusion surgery. The fusion surgery would have him miss about 1 month of the season. Literally no one is expecting Eichel to not play at all next year. Seth Jones is far less talented to the risk of getting Eichel, a top 10 center in the league is worth it compared to Jones. 

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

Gentlemen -- I think these posts indicate a black-or-white view of his injury and its effect on other GMs' willingness to acquire him -- i.e. he's either seriously injured or he's not, he'll either regain his prior form or he won't, and he's either worth trading the farm for or he's not -- and I don't think that's the correct perspective here, nor do I think the comparisons to Seth Jones, McCabe, Tuch, etc are relevant.  Those guys either weren't injured or aren't being sold off at huge prices.

IMHO, we're in much more of a gray area.  The injury is without question a serious matter.  I think it's clearly the primary reason he hasn't been traded yet.  If he'd played a full season last year and had, say, 25-38-63 in 52 games, does anyone doubt that other teams would've ponied up rich packages to get him?

Even so, I think for many (admittedly not all) GMs, the injury, and now-almost-certain spinal surgery, aren't "NFW are we trading for this guy" barriers.  Those GMs are taking a perspective that is more "trading for this guy is risky; there's a decent chance he regains his MVP-contender form but also a decent chance he doesn't -- so I'll take the risk on his contract if our doctors and our owner sign off, but only if the price to acquire him isn't too high."  That's why Anaheim isn't delivering Zegras and the Rangers aren't delivering LaFreniere.

For you 2 guys and anyone else who disagrees that the injury is a major factor:  if you don't think it's the injury, then why hasn't he been traded yet?

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8 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

Gentlemen -- I think these posts indicate a black-or-white view of his injury and its effect on other GMs' willingness to acquire him -- i.e. he's either seriously injured or he's not, he'll either regain his prior form or he won't, and he's either worth trading the farm for or he's not -- and I don't think that's the correct perspective here, nor do I think the comparisons to Seth Jones, McCabe, Tuch, etc are relevant.  Those guys either weren't injured or aren't being sold off at huge prices.

IMHO, we're in much more of a gray area.  The injury is without question a serious matter.  I think it's clearly the primary reason he hasn't been traded yet.  If he'd played a full season last year and had, say, 25-38-63 in 52 games, does anyone doubt that other teams would've ponied up rich packages to get him?

Even so, I think for many (admittedly not all) GMs, the injury, and now-almost-certain spinal surgery, aren't "NFW are we trading for this guy" barriers.  Those GMs are taking a perspective that is more "trading for this guy is risky; there's a decent chance he regains his MVP-contender form but also a decent chance he doesn't -- so I'll take the risk on his contract if our doctors and our owner sign off, but only if the price to acquire him isn't too high."  That's why Anaheim isn't delivering Zegras and the Rangers aren't delivering LaFreniere.

For you 2 guys and anyone else who disagrees that the injury is a major factor:  if you don't think it's the injury, then why hasn't he been traded yet?

100% percent (that's double percent) plays a factor; Also the prima-donna notion arose rather drastically, as well (not there weren't rumblings of that prior), but far more the former.

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1 hour ago, dudacek said:

The only difference is that the surgery Jack wants has not been tried on an NHL player.

Jack wants that surgery, primarily, because he wants to accelerate his recovery time; it is a known factor 

Everything else in your post is based on the twin suppositions that Jack is getting the surgery he wants and the acquiring team is not comfortable with the risk - an extremely unlikely combination.

No team would be willing to trade for Jack Eichel and his $50 million contract under those circumstances, no matter the price, and they wouldn’t be making offers.

 

My general supposition is simple. Because of his health situation his trade value for now is diminished. The level of diminishment as I see it is greater than what you perceive it to be. And this is diminishment is reflected in the unwillingness of teams to come near to what the Sabre organization wants. With that realization I'm more willing than some are to lower the asking price. 

Edited by JohnC
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12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

My general supposition is simple. Because of his health situation his trade value for now is diminished. The level of diminishment as I see it is greater than what you perceive it to be. And this is diminishment is reflected in the unwillingness of teams to come near to what the Sabre organization wants. With that realization I'm more willing than some are to lower the asking price. 

I guess my question is as you lower the asking price, how important is the return in KA’s plan?  And does it get to the point where there’s not much difference in trading an injured Jack Eichel without a nmc vs a healthy Jack Eichel with a nmc. 

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4 minutes ago, SJSabres Fan said:

I guess my question is as you lower the asking price, how important is the return in KA’s plan?  And does it get to the point where there’s not much difference in trading an injured Jack Eichel without a nmc vs a healthy Jack Eichel with a nmc. 

With respect to Jack's NMC I don't give a dam about it. When the time comes for the clause to kick in it doesn't matter whether he refuses to go to a particular team. Because if that is the case then he is kept. 

The GM's obligation is to act in the team's interest. That takes primacy over the player's interest.  

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