Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[Weave]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

Alright Mr. Sarcastic.

It's a bit hyperbole to call Vegas entirely stupid but you cannot tell me that trading for a 1C isn't incredibly important. The idiocy comes in the unwillingness to trade Krebs because of supposedly being sad from trading Suzuki 

Especially seeing as they traded Suzuki, Tatar's cap and a 2nd for a potentially pure rental in Pacioretty.

I just see it as unusual they were willing to throw assets around to get wingers but a 1C, they refuse to.

 

So, Vegas has one credible high end prospect and you think it is idiocy that they are becoming frugal with it when the return is a guy who we don’t know when he will be back on the ice, and we don’t know if he’ll get back to 100% when he does?  I wouldn’t make that trade either.

[Digger]

16 hours ago, Brawndo said:

 

Wasn't there a report earlier this year that the Sabres would consider retaining salary for the right deal?  Perhaps it was just speculation by one of the insiders at that time?  I remember that we all debated the issue and merits of that scenario a few months ago. 

[LabattBlue]

I'm not sure what KA(along with Kim & Terry) are doing.  Trying to trade a broken John with no salary retention is equal to no value.  Refusing to allow him his surgical option and just letting this stalemate to continue is not going to improve his value.  What happened to 5 teams being "heavily in" on a trade for John?

 

Let me repeat, letting this drag on without medical resolution isn't going to make his value go up.  Other GM's are not idiots.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by LabattBlue

[Weave]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

I'm not sure what KA(along with Kim & Terry) are doing.  Trying to trade a broken John with no salary retention is equal to no value.  Refusing to allow him his surgical option and just letting this stalemate to continue is not going to improve his value.  What happened to 5 teams being "heavily in" on a trade for John?

 

Let me repeat, letting this drag on without medical resolution isn't going to make his value go up.  Other GM's are not idiots.

 

 

I think the plan at this point is to stretch out what value he has.  I’m guessing there is just enough movement for KA to not be quite ready to say “good enough “.  I think it has to be getting close to the end though.

[K-9]

35 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I'm not sure what KA(along with Kim & Terry) are doing.  Trying to trade a broken John with no salary retention is equal to no value.  Refusing to allow him his surgical option and just letting this stalemate to continue is not going to improve his value.  What happened to 5 teams being "heavily in" on a trade for John?

 

Let me repeat, letting this drag on without medical resolution isn't going to make his value go up.  Other GM's are not idiots.

 

 

Did you say “broken John?”

 

[Scottysabres]

30 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Did you say “broken John?”

 

Someone didn't heed the warning and ate the chilli

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

I'd disagree, if he ends up healthy you get a 1C. If it fails you can easily bury him on LTIR meaning his cap is of no consequence.

This team traded a 1st, a 2nd and a 3rd for Tatar and barely used him. For them to be so gun shy now is just odd

Just maybe they learned from their past mistake? If so, it's not odd behavior so much as it is smart behavior because they have seemed to learned from their past glaring mistake. 

[Digger]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

So, Vegas has one credible high end prospect and you think it is idiocy that they are becoming frugal with it when the return is a guy who we don’t know when he will be back on the ice, and we don’t know if he’ll get back to 100% when he does?  I wouldn’t make that trade either.

21 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Just maybe they learned from their past mistake? If so, it's not odd behavior so much as it is smart behavior because they have seemed to learned from their past glaring mistake. 

The way I read your posts is that if you were the Vegas GM you would pass on Eichel then.  Without including Krebs they don't really have an enticing offer in my opinion for the Sabres to consider.  I know that there is a fair bit of criticism on the Pacioretty trade to include Suzuki but the Vegas team has done very well for itself since the trade.  Would they have had the same success without making the trade?  I think the argument is that many believe they would be in a better place today with their roster if they had not.  To me the question with Krebs and Vegas is do they want to wait for him to reach his potential (most likely 2 -3 seasons from now) or roll the dice on Eichel and seeing if he can be their number 1 center for the playoffs (maybe) or to start next season fresh?  Same goes for any other team trading for Eichel right now.  Trading a top prospect or two that are playing for your farm team seems like a reasonable risk to take for this season to get Eichel under your control.  It remains a waiting game. 

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

I'm not sure what KA(along with Kim & Terry) are doing.  Trying to trade a broken John with no salary retention is equal to no value.  Refusing to allow him his surgical option and just letting this stalemate to continue is not going to improve his value.  What happened to 5 teams being "heavily in" on a trade for John?

 

Let me repeat, letting this drag on without medical resolution isn't going to make his value go up.  Other GM's are not idiots.

I'd guess that KA's plan at this point is to wait and see if teams like the Rangers and the Habs get off to bad starts and their GMs start to feel pressure to make a deal and thereby raise the price they're willing to pay for Eichel.  Right now, as I've said previously, I don't think anyone is going to give up their premium prospects for Eichel due to the injury, but 20 games into a bad start could change someone's mind.

 

[Weave]

25 minutes ago, Digger said:

The way I read your posts is that if you were the Vegas GM you would pass on Eichel then.  Without including Krebs they don't really have an enticing offer in my opinion for the Sabres to consider.  I know that there is a fair bit of criticism on the Pacioretty trade to include Suzuki but the Vegas team has done very well for itself since the trade.  Would they have had the same success without making the trade?  I think the argument is that many believe they would be in a better place today with their roster if they had not.  To me the question with Krebs and Vegas is do they want to wait for him to reach his potential (most likely 2 -3 seasons from now) or roll the dice on Eichel and seeing if he can be their number 1 center for the playoffs (maybe) or to start next season fresh?  Same goes for any other team trading for Eichel right now.  Trading a top prospect or two that are playing for your farm team seems like a reasonable risk to take for this season to get Eichel under your control.  It remains a waiting game. 

How many people on this forum would trade the Sabres top 1 or 2 prospects for a former #2 overall that is on IR and needs spinal surgery that has some risk involved?  We would burn KA in effigy if he made that trade.

25 minutes ago, Digger said:

Edited October 17, 2021 by Weave

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, Weave said:

How many people on this forum would trade the Sabres top 1 or 2 prospects for a former #2 overall that is on IR and needs spinal surgery that has some risk involved?  We would burn KA in effigy if he made that trade.

I'd definitely trade Quinn and Peterka for Jack Eichel. 

Owen Power is probably another matter, though. Purely because of injury concerns, for me. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Thorny

[JohnC]

49 minutes ago, Digger said:

The way I read your posts is that if you were the Vegas GM you would pass on Eichel then.  Without including Krebs they don't really have an enticing offer in my opinion for the Sabres to consider.  I know that there is a fair bit of criticism on the Pacioretty trade to include Suzuki but the Vegas team has done very well for itself since the trade.  Would they have had the same success without making the trade?  I think the argument is that many believe they would be in a better place today with their roster if they had not.  To me the question with Krebs and Vegas is do they want to wait for him to reach his potential (most likely 2 -3 seasons from now) or roll the dice on Eichel and seeing if he can be their number 1 center for the playoffs (maybe) or to start next season fresh?  Same goes for any other team trading for Eichel right now.  Trading a top prospect or two that are playing for your farm team seems like a reasonable risk to take for this season to get Eichel under your control.  It remains a waiting game. 

I have said it on previous posts and I will restate it: Any GM who gives up one of their prime prospects in their system, plus additional assets, without fully knowing what Jack's health status is should be fired for gross malpractice. I wouldn't pursue Jack in a trade until after he has whatever surgery and it is clear that he is on his way to restored health. If you review what has transpired since Jack has been placed on the market no team has been willing to give up a prime prospect for Jack. 

On the other side of the coin if the Sabres can't get a fair return for Jack prior or post surgery then they shouldn't deal him until his value is restored. When you have a valuable asset it would not be wise to deal it away for pennies on the dollar. In my view our GM is handling this Jack situation smartly. 

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying here. If a good deal can be made, even if it isn't a maximum return deal, then I would be all for it. If not, bide your time until the market changes upward. 

[Weave]

42 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I'd definitely trade Quinn and Peterka for Jack Eichel. 

Owen Power is probably another matter, though. Purely because of injury concerns, for me. 

For an injured Eichel with an uncertain surgery future?  Would you do it if Quinn was your only blue chip prospect?

[Digger]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

For an injured Eichel with an uncertain surgery future?  Would you do it if Quinn was your only blue chip prospect?

To me any team has to decide if Eichel will return to full health first full stop.  If they agree that he can then you talk trade.  If you think no or that it's too risky you say that you're out and move on. 

If the Sabres were pursuing a player like Eichel teams would ask for Cozens and Power as our blue chip prospects and we would most likely say no.  Quinn, Peterka, Johnson, UPL would be next on the list.  As I said previously you have to decide if you want (or can afford) to wait for your prospects to make the team and make a positive impact.  Today the Sabres are wise to wait for our prospects to develop.

What did the Sabres learn from the O'Reilly trade?  It looks like they learned that having an artificial deadline over a bonus hurts their position and that they need to wait for the best deal before making the trade.  The Blues could have made a better deal for O'Reilly and we all expected a better deal.  Tage Thompson was not their top prospect.  If the Sabres don't make that trade the Blues don't win the cup that year.  If the Blues give up their best prospect they still win the cup.  The Sabres should have waited (actually I think they should have kept him given how badly things went for us after the trade).

[thewookie1]

33 minutes ago, Weave said:

For an injured Eichel with an uncertain surgery future?  Would you do it if Quinn was your only blue chip prospect?

The thing is they are trying for a Cup; this isn’t a case of how Anaheim or LAK may have their hang ups. Vegas has tried and failed to win the Cup for 4 years and are held back by their lack of a true 1C. (Karlsson was one for a year) Yes, would they be trading their last blue chipper; technically yes as Brisson is just shy of that. But Krebs isn’t going to be a 1C for at least a couple years if ever. Your odds of Eichel bouncing back are higher than Krebs making a significant impact before Vegas’ core is in their early to mid 30’s. 
 

If a team is confident in the surgery; it makes sense to try to lower the price but eventually you need to just pay the piper.

 

What I’m trying to convey is that Vegas, at this point, has spent so many assets that playing conservative now is more detrimental than savvy. All the picks and prospects they have spent already upgrading their team are even worse if they fail to bring home a Cup. 

 

VGK is a team literally knocking on the door to winning a Cup; they either need to pack it in and give up on this core, go all in and trade for Eichel, or keep doing what they are doing which will unlikely accomplish anything but stave off mediocrity while never truly threatening for a Cup. 
 

If Buffalo was in Vegas’s position exactly and we had 1 blue chip prospect left. I’d ask my doctors about the surgery; and if they said it was likely to work out then I’d take that dive. In the event Eichel fails to return to form, and you still fail; then you deal away the old core, recoup picks and prospects and try again. However if he does return to form he’ll make your team a juggernaut in the Pacific and you’ll be a Cup favorite for at least 4 years. Plus, there’s the opportunity to re-sign Eichel and use him as part of a vet oversight on a new younger core you draft in 23,24 and 25. 
 

So yes, I would trade my last blue chip prospect in their specific circumstances. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by thewookie1

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, Digger said:

To me any team has to decide if Eichel will return to full health first full stop.  If they agree that he can then you talk trade.  If you think no or that it's too risky you say that you're out and move on. 

If the Sabres were pursuing a player like Eichel teams would ask for Cozens and Power as our blue chip prospects and we would most likely say no.  Quinn, Peterka, Johnson, UPL would be next on the list.  As I said previously you have to decide if you want (or can afford) to wait for your prospects to make the team and make a positive impact.  Today the Sabres are wise to wait for our prospects to develop.

What did the Sabres learn from the O'Reilly trade?  It looks like they learned that having an artificial deadline over a bonus hurts their position and that they need to wait for the best deal before making the trade.  The Blues could have made a better deal for O'Reilly and we all expected a better deal.  Tage Thompson was not their top prospect.  If the Sabres don't make that trade the Blues don't win the cup that year.  If the Blues give up their best prospect they still win the cup.  The Sabres should have waited (actually I think they should have kept him given how badly things went for us after the trade).

The world just isn't that binary though.  There is a complete spetrum that exists between full health and out injured.  Almost certainly the negotiations are developing along that spectrum of value where there is probability of return at some percentage of what Jack was at his peak.  Both teams (Buffalo and whoever) are working from the standpoint of what % of Jack is most likely and what is THAT value.  Of course, from Buffalo's perspective that discussion starts with the assumption that 100% Jack is the most likely outcome.  But after many months of this I think it is pretty clear that no other team chasing Jack shares that assumption.

[Weave]

3 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

The thing is they are trying for a Cup; this isn’t a case of how Anaheim or LAK may have their hang ups. Vegas has tried and failed to win the Cup for 4 years and are held back by their lack of a true 1C. (Karlsson was one for a year) Yes, would they be trading their last blue chipper; technically yes as Brisson is just shy of that. But Krebs isn’t going to be a 1C for at least a couple years if ever. Your odds of Eichel bouncing back are higher than Krebs making a significant impact before Vegas’ core is in their early to mid 30’s. 
 

If a team is confident in the surgery; it makes sense to try to lower the price but eventually you need to just pay the piper.

 

What I’m trying to convey is that Vegas, at this point, has spent so many assets that playing conservative now is more detrimental than savvy. All the picks and prospects they have spent already upgrading their team are even worse if they fail to bring home a Cup. 

 

VGK is a team literally knocking on the door to winning a Cup; they either need to pack it in and give up on this core, go all in and trade for Eichel, or keep doing what they are doing which will unlikely accomplish anything but stave off mediocrity while never truly threatening for a Cup. 
 

If Buffalo was in Vegas’s position exactly and we had 1 blue chip prospect left. I’d ask my doctors about the surgery; and if they said it was likely to work out then I’d take that dive. In the event Eichel fails to return to form, and you still fail; then you deal away the old core, recoup picks and prospects and try again. However if he does return to form he’ll make your team a juggernaut in the Pacific and you’ll be a Cup favorite for at least 4 years. Plus, there’s the opportunity to re-sign Eichel and use him as part of a vet oversight on a new younger core you draft in 23,24 and 25. 
 

So yes, I would trade my last blue chip prospect in their specific circumstances. 

Why would Vegas do that to win this season when there is no real consensus that Jack will be back to full capacity this season?  Unless he gets a surgery that it seems insurers are unwilling to cover.

[Doohickie]

4 hours ago, aristocrat said:

Jack is an all star no way to retaining salary. You either offer the right package or don’t get him. Period. Unless it’s a crazy overpayment. Like 3-4 unprotected firsts plus a couple players which is not happening 

For all those looking for top shelf return for Jack, consider: 

• It is not known, nor will it be known, if Jack will ever get back to elite status.
• Even if he is able to get back to his own self, it won't be until late this season or next season.  So any team trading away current players or even current depth, will have that subtracted from their talent pool before Jack can contribute.

I can see not getting full "top shelf" value for Eichel as the situation stands.  Something (i.e., the Sabres) will have to give if this situation will be solved any time soon.  I don't think the Sabres are willing to give... not yet.

[thewookie1]

4 minutes ago, Weave said:

Why would Vegas do that to win this season when there is no real consensus that Jack will be back to full capacity this season?  Unless he gets a surgery that it seems insurers are unwilling to cover.

It’s not just for this season though; it’s for the end of this year and 4 additional ones. Even if he ends up forced into a fusion he’d be back for the playoffs this year.

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Let me repeat, letting this drag on without medical resolution isn't going to make his value go up.  Other GM's are not idiots.

Yep.  Quite the conundrum.

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I'd guess that KA's plan at this point is to wait and see if teams like the Rangers and the Habs get off to bad starts and their GMs start to feel pressure to make a deal and thereby raise the price they're willing to pay for Eichel.  Right now, as I've said previously, I don't think anyone is going to give up their premium prospects for Eichel due to the injury, but 20 games into a bad start could change someone's mind.

Not if they're trying to save this season.  Eichel won't be there to help improve a team until after the Olympic break.

[inkman]

I haven’t bothered reading the majority of this thread because why would anyone subject themselves to that, has there been any discussion about contingent trades. Like if Eichel plays in 2022, the Sabres get a 1st.  If he plays in the postseason, it’s another draft pick, and so on?

[Weave]

6 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

It’s not just for this season though; it’s for the end of this year and 4 additional ones. Even if he ends up forced into a fusion he’d be back for the playoffs this year.

And after this season Krebs will be in play for them.  And at this point Krebs is closer to a sure thing than Jack.  It is not lunacy to hold firm on Krebs when Krebs has as much liklihood to be what he projects to as Jack does.

[Doohickie]

4 minutes ago, inkman said:

I haven’t bothered reading the majority of this thread because why would anyone subject themselves to that, has there been any discussion about contingent trades. Like if Eichel plays in 2022, the Sabres get a 1st.  If he plays in the postseason, it’s another draft pick, and so on?

Yeah, contingent picks have been kicked around.

[thewookie1]

6 minutes ago, Weave said:

And after this season Krebs will be in play for them.  And at this point Krebs is closer to a sure thing than Jack.  It is not lunacy to hold firm on Krebs when Krebs has as much liklihood to be what he projects to as Jack does.

I don’t honestly see Krebs ever reaching Eichel’s level. 
 

 

In the end we are stuck in an endless logical loop.

1. Team says they’d let Eichel have ADR. Offer .50 on the dollar.

2. Sabres decline because if the team didn’t  believe the surgery would return him to 1C abilities then they wouldn’t of accepted the surgery to begin with. Counters at $1 on the dollar.

3. Team declines saying that they are taking the risk of the surgery so there should be a discount. Continues to offer .50 on the dollar.

4. Buffalo declines saying much like the first iteration, if they feel the risk is that great then why make the trade to begin with. However the Sabres do offer an olive branch at .85 on the dollar.

5. Team continues to harp on risk and contract but raises offer slightly to .60 on the dollar.

6. Sabres counter at .75 and state this is the lowest they’ll go. 
 

7. Team declines thus Buffalo stops general discussions.

8. Time passes and the other team sends another .50 offer and the cycle repeats.