Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: Actually ovechkin was a terrible teammate and not a leader for years which is why they never got past 2nd round. But they won the cup in 18, so he had finally grown and matured and now is capable of doing that. But they've lost since then, so he actually changed again. Also toews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabel79 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 13 minutes ago, Curt said: Who even was the last lone C before Eichel? I’m not being snarky, I feel like it was actually Steve Ott… that can’t be right, but I can’t think of another one… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) Gionta, come on gang 😃 Edited June 18, 2021 by Lanny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Stuck in the middle of the ocean with a paddle, a means of propulsion, but no raft to sit on. Maybe the paddle is "useless" in that situation, and isn't able to "make any difference", but if the situation can be manipulated to acquire something to sit on, to work in combination with the paddle, differences will be made. The funny thing about the Sabres is it's actually easier to acquire roster supplement than it is a raft in the middle of nowhere. Does the failure to build around Eichel speak to the difficulty to build around Eichel or the ineptitude of those in charge? Considering the backdrop of context re: other decisions irrespective to Eichel and their track record therein, I know where my money is. Adams doesn't want to build around Eichel. Maybe Adams isn't inept like his predecessors. In that case, he's inept for not trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indabuff Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 4 hours ago, Pimlach said: We could be going into the next season with Asplund/Mitts/Thompson as our first line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southtown Tommy Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: This really is the ROR situation all over as we slowly convince ourselves Jack Eichel, a top 10 center in the NHL is part of the reason this team has sucked for a decade. LGR, we don't agree on Reinhart, but we do on Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalonill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 10 minutes ago, Indabuff said: Tank wars part 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEbriate Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Wait until you see the 3 seasons before the tank that are part of that decade. I count the tank starting point at the "suffering" press conference. We know we have no centers -- Grigs and Girgs are drafted but years away from playing (ideally), Leino is not a C, Roy is traded, Hecht is best-suited as a wing and not part of the future, and Hodgson and Ennis are going to top out at 2Cs at their best. We're going to suffer to get those top centers in the draft. McDavid is looming. I had to go back to check it -- 4/29/2013 is the press conference (or 4/28, if the articles came out the next day). We'd just finished the lockout season 21-21-6. That's where I start the tank. Others may not agree with me. But my tank begins with "suffering" and the nosedive 2013-2014 to get Reinhart and then the continued stall to get McD/Eichel. Prior to that, we're in a XGM Regier rebuild --- is it working? Meh. We're trending downward as the core ages. But the previous three seasons had resulted in 1st in division - playoff berth (09-10), 2nd in division - playoff berth (10-11), and 3rd in division (11-12) and a heroic charge to 9th. Good enough? No. Stuck in no-man's land and faltering? Yes. Were those three seasons suffering? Gosh no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 54 minutes ago, Thorny said: They are trading Eichel because Adams wants a rebuild. Maybe it's hubris, wanting his own mark on this, maybe it's just to set himself up in a situation where the expectations are near-unmissable: but I think it's pretty clear the "step back" is what he wants. We know now he suggested moving Jack immediately upon taking over the job, when that wasn't Ok'd, the Hall opportunity presented itself. He took it - we were either going to be good, or the team would have enough rope to hang itself, souring Tpegs on the method and opening up the OK for Adams' slow climb. I know people say "when haven't we been rebuilding?" in the last decade, but when I say rebuild the heart of it to me is the conscious lowering of expectations. As soon as KA had his interview after JE, I said it - the goal is not to make the playoffs next year. I think that's a gigantic mistake. Just as the most detrimental factor of the tank was the mentality it infused the organization with, that's proven so hard to shake, we've again slid down that slippery slope right back into it. My recent Bills memory might be a little fuzzy, but did McBeane come in and push to make the playoffs in Year One to get the monkey off their back? IMMSMC, Job One was changing the dreaded culture. Good players went away in the process. If I had to wager, this is the conversation KA had with Terry and maybe Kim when she came in with sammies (damn Terry loves him some Amish Country Ham Loaf; he has it flown in to Boca twice a week), and could argue his Sabres Version successfully because of what happened in OP. I think all new GMs come in thinking they are not responsible for or beholden to the failures that came before them. (As an aside, culture will be looked down upon by smart analytics people. So will character, team chemistry, "difference-making," leadership, momentum in games, clutch play and the like. They can't be put into one of those fancy new pocket calculators.) 7 minutes ago, Thorny said: Stuck in the middle of the ocean with a paddle, a means of propulsion, but no raft to sit on. Maybe the paddle is "useless" in that situation, and isn't able to "make any difference", but if the situation can be manipulated to acquire something to sit on, to work in combination with the paddle, differences will be made. The funny thing about the Sabres is it's actually easier to acquire roster supplement than it is a raft in the middle of nowhere. Does the failure to build around Eichel speak to the difficulty to build around Eichel or the ineptitude of those in charge? Considering the backdrop of context re: other decisions irrespective to Eichel and their track record therein, I know where my money is. Adams doesn't want to build around Eichel. Maybe Adams isn't inept like his predecessors. In that case, he's inept for not trying. That's the thing. There's all this debate about trading Eichel. Both sides have made their decision; neither side is wrong about the other. Do we really think we know better? Kim got in trouble for saying there are things they as owners know that we don't. She wasn't wrong. If there's a desire to move Eichel, and there is, isn't it more logical to think they've done their homework instead of some theory about KA wanting to have a long rebuild to ensure his employment? 10 million a year? I bet 50K to hire some private detectives was an easy decision. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, PASabreFan said: My recent Bills memory might be a little fuzzy, but did McBeane come in and push to make the playoffs in Year One to get the monkey off their back? IMMSMC, Job One was changing the dreaded culture. Good players went away in the process. If I had to wager, this is the conversation KA had with Terry and maybe Kim when she came in with sammies (damn Terry loves him some Amish Country Ham Loaf; he has it flown in to Boca twice a week), and could argue his Sabres Version successfully because of what happened in OP. I think all new GMs come in thinking they are not responsible for or beholden to the failures that came before them. (As an aside, culture will be looked down upon by smart analytics people. So will character, team chemistry, "difference-making," leadership, momentum in games, clutch play and the like. They can't be put into one of those fancy new pocket calculators.) That's the thing. There's all this debate about trading Eichel. Both sides have made their decision; neither side is wrong about the other. Do we really think we know better? Kim got in trouble for saying there are things they as owners know that we don't. She wasn't wrong. If there's a desire to move Eichel, and there is, isn't it more logical to think they've done their homework instead of some theory about KA wanting to have a long rebuild to ensure his employment? 10 million a year? I bet 50K to hire some private detectives was an easy decision. Comparing the Bills to the Sabres is apples to oranges, though. Especially when a player like Allen, who isn't better at football than Jack Eichel is at hockey, is playing in a sport, and position, conducive to one player accounting for a lot more on their own. Wasn't it your argument that Terry perhaps is just "a football guy" and knows more about it intellectually than he does hockey? I know you think he meddles, so. I used to think that "culture" wasn't a thing, but my opinion has shifted: I just see it's influence in different places than you. The Bills never intentionally lost a full 2 seasons to draft a hopeful Savior (this is key, their mere belief in the idea of that concept, in the NHL). If they are burdened by culture, it's their "good is the enemy of great" mentality. Jack saw it - that's why Jack had become so frustrated, we all know that. He wants to win. The Sabres don't want to build a winner, they want to build a cup contender. If we want to fix the culture, this time it's the players who have it right. As for whether we "know better" - I don't need to know anything other than how to read and use a computer to look up the results of these types of trades and see what side the results heavily lean in. I don't know better - the Pegulas apparently just know so, so much worse. Edited June 18, 2021 by Thorny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: Wait until you see the 3 seasons before the tank that are part of that decade. love how people completely gloss over that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 27 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said: I count the tank starting point at the "suffering" press conference. We know we have no centers -- Grigs and Girgs are drafted but years away from playing (ideally), Leino is not a C, Roy is traded, Hecht is best-suited as a wing and not part of the future, and Hodgson and Ennis are going to top out at 2Cs at their best. We're going to suffer to get those top centers in the draft. McDavid is looming. I had to go back to check it -- 4/29/2013 is the press conference (or 4/28, if the articles came out the next day). We'd just finished the lockout season 21-21-6. That's where I start the tank. Others may not agree with me. But my tank begins with "suffering" and the nosedive 2013-2014 to get Reinhart and then the continued stall to get McD/Eichel. Prior to that, we're in a XGM Regier rebuild --- is it working? Meh. We're trending downward as the core ages. But the previous three seasons had resulted in 1st in division - playoff berth (09-10), 2nd in division - playoff berth (10-11), and 3rd in division (11-12) and a heroic charge to 9th. Good enough? No. Stuck in no-man's land and faltering? Yes. Were those three seasons suffering? Gosh no. to a Sabres fan of 40 years at that point - yes it was suffering nothing worse than stuck in the middle with no hope of the cup. The Tank gave hope - they acquired an elite talent in Eichel, a high prospect in Samson and a basketful of draft picks (3 1st in the best draft in ages - 2015) but instead of proper rebuild, Murray gave away 2 of the first for Lehner and Kane. How much better would they be now if they kept the picks instead? All water under the bridge. If we are entering Tank 2 - lets hope the rebuild is successful this time around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said: to a Sabres fan of 40 years at that point - yes it was suffering nothing worse than stuck in the middle with no hope of the cup. The Tank gave hope - they acquired an elite talent in Eichel, a high prospect in Samson and a basketful of draft picks (3 1st in the best draft in ages - 2015) but instead of proper rebuild, Murray gave away 2 of the first for Lehner and Kane. How much better would they be now if they kept the picks instead? All water under the bridge. If we are entering Tank 2 - lets hope the rebuild is successful this time around. Well since I get yelled out constantly about prospects... I flipped my ship when we lost the chance to get Brock Boeser. I was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 44 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said: to a Sabres fan of 40 years at that point - yes it was suffering nothing worse than stuck in the middle with no hope of the cup. The Tank gave hope - they acquired an elite talent in Eichel, a high prospect in Samson and a basketful of draft picks (3 1st in the best draft in ages - 2015) but instead of proper rebuild, Murray gave away 2 of the first for Lehner and Kane. How much better would they be now if they kept the picks instead? All water under the bridge. If we are entering Tank 2 - lets hope the rebuild is successful this time around. A fools hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just now, SwampD said: A fools hope. and what hope did the Sabres give you from 2007 to 2013? a miraculous play-off run IF they were lucky enough to get into the last spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said: and what hope did the Sabres give you from 2007 to 2013? a miraculous play-off run IF they were lucky enough to get into the last spot? Why is 3rd through 10th place in the east worse than what we've done the last ten years, and why is it that other teams don't tank and can do better than this? Why is it our destiny if we don't enter "Tank 2"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just now, Crusader1969 said: and what hope did the Sabres give you from 2007 to 2013? a miraculous play-off run IF they were lucky enough to get into the last spot? A hope to not watch the worst hockey imaginable? This team just gives its assets away to the rest of the league for nothing and wonders why it sucks. They didn't learn from Mogilny, Hasek, Peca, Drury, Briere, the blood letting of the Tank, Kane, ROR,... And now we want to do it with the tankfruit!? When you have talent, you keep talent and try to get more. You don't blame it for losing and get rid of it, then HOPE that the next roll of the dice is the answer. HOPE is not a strategy. Whatever. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 2 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Wait until you see the 3 seasons before the tank that are part of that decade. They won the division in one of them, and made the playoffs in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 20 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said: and what hope did the Sabres give you from 2007 to 2013? a miraculous play-off run IF they were lucky enough to get into the last spot? So fun at the time. Oh, take me back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Winning shootouts with Vanek's in close slapper Watching the population of Pominville go up and Rick's fantastic call therin The Jordan Leopold crease goal against the Leafs. Dominating the leafs. Ennis OT goal vs Philly Miller's heroics and a division win Vanek's hat tricks... Miss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Thorny said: Does the failure to build around Eichel speak to the difficulty to build around Eichel or the ineptitude of those in charge? I think it is an error to boil it down to these two choices. It wasn’t difficulty building around Eichel, and it likely wouldn’t have mattered much who the GMs were. You guys that still support the tank don’t appear (to me anyway) to see that the real issue was that the extent to which the team was torn down to guarantee a tank fruit made it damned near impossible to have an effective rebuild that wouldn’t take 7yrs. As mentioned up thread, the entire organization was a bottom feeder. The entire house had to be built from a hole in the ground. And that was unprecedented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just now, Weave said: I think it is an error to boil it down to these two choices. It wasn’t difficulty building around Eichel, and it likely wouldn’t have mattered much who the GMs were. You guys that still support the tank don’t appear (to me anyway) to see that the real issue was that the extent to which the team was torn down to guarantee a tank fruit made it damned near impossible to have an effective rebuild that wouldn’t take 7yrs. As mentioned up thread, the entire organization was a bottom feeder. The entire house had to be built from a hole in the ground. And that was unprecedented. I don't support the tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 minute ago, Thorny said: I don't support the tank And I can’t keep everyone straight lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Being an Eichel supporter does not equal being a supporter of the tank. Believing they made their jobs far too difficult because of the scorched-earth mentality they took on, yet still capable of results far from THIS putrid since, is also possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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