Don Granato as a HC

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

You can't use this for any meaningful argument since he didn't coach for us. He's a good coach and I'd hire him now. He was fine in Toronto until the softies there cried about his bullying. But even if you don't like him, he's irrelevant to the argument as he was never here.

The Leafs are doing better without him. His dictatorial style of coaching and managing players is antiquated and ineffective. The bullying and tyrannical approach that worked in a prior era no longer works. The players of today are more independent and influence because of their rich contracts and the free agency. Blustering old time coaches can't handle this new reality. Tough. Get the hell out of the way and talk about the good old days at the local tavern.   

[SwampD]

All I can say about Granato is that once he took over, at least we weren’t losing because of coaching.

Not sure what that means going forward.

I kinda think that until we get some more NHL players, it won’t matter who the coach is.

This sucks.

[PASabreFan]

It's not possible, but I'd really like to see 20 games next fall before deciding on the guy.

[Marvin]

25 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's not possible, but I'd really like to see 20 games next fall before deciding on the guy.

Love you profile pic.

[PASabreFan]

31 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Love you profile pic.

I've had many over the years. This might be my forever pic.

[Radar]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

The Leafs are doing better without him. His dictatorial style of coaching and managing players is antiquated and ineffective. The bullying and tyrannical approach that worked in a prior era no longer works. The players of today are more independent and influence because of their rich contracts and the free agency. Blustering old time coaches can't handle this new reality. Tough. Get the hell out of the way and talk about the good old days at the local tavern.   

Agree. He's a good coach but in my opinion not very good/great coach and overrated. He's been coach of some very talented teams......saw it was over and left Detroit. Toronto ??

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

The point is the Pegulas were ready to pay him $5MM/yr if he came to Buffalo. Only Toronto and Mrs. Babcock changed that. 

This runs counter to the cries of "cheap" for considering Don Granato. If Babcock, Gallant, Boudreau etc were brought in and had the run Granato had with the Sabres, people and pundits would not be able to contain their effusive praise. But because Granato isn't a name and came from within the organization, everything he's done is considered a mirage.

 

Well two things to this. First, they did spend money and they failed so perhaps as owners they have decided no more, time to cut losses and try something else. Perhaps putting more of their time into watching their successful team, the Bills, which was built a different way. Perhaps they see that success and have rethought their hockey plan? We don't know since they don't say, they only tell us they know things we don't. 

 

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The Leafs are doing better without him. His dictatorial style of coaching and managing players is antiquated and ineffective. The bullying and tyrannical approach that worked in a prior era no longer works. The players of today are more independent and influence because of their rich contracts and the free agency. Blustering old time coaches can't handle this new reality. Tough. Get the hell out of the way and talk about the good old days at the local tavern.   

So you want to pamper the superstars? That'll get you to the cup? So when Bruce Cassidy benches Jake DeBrusk he's a bully? There are nuances and levels to this black and white extreme depiction. 

The Leafs are doing better (but will they in the playoffs?) because of the foundation that Babcock put in place that they used to build upon combined with the maturation of their young star draft picks. I doubt however, that it will win in the tough checking playoff games. They may get out of the North division if they end up star against star with Edmonton but neither will get further without massive luck. Matthews has yet to prove himself in the playoffs. Babcock was one Jake Gardiner replacement away from beating Boston twice. 

What has Granato done that is so special? We're DEAD LAST IN THE LEAGUE. We managed 1 win out of 7 against Pittsburgh and Boston and 2 against Washington. Wow, we are SO GOOD NOW!!!!!!!!   Granato just shifted us back to Housley hockey so some of these guys liked it better than the defense first approach they hated and couldn't seem to grasp. By the end of it Skinner was back on the 4th line and we could barely generate any scoring chances when the opposition checked us hard. We only won when the opposition took us lightly. It's a joke. Staying the course will mean just that, dead last again. 

Tortorella is available. He's now my first choice. Sabres will not agree with that idea I am almost sure of that. Wouldn't be surprised if the Kraken hire him instead. Build their foundation the right way so in 2 years they can move ahead of us too. 

We will hire Granato and talk a bunch of bs about how we're headed in the right direction. Almost sure of it, cause that's what we do. 

Damn I miss the Imlach years. 

[JohnC]

46 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

 

 

So you want to pamper the superstars? That'll get you to the cup? So when Bruce Cassidy benches Jake DeBrusk he's a bully? There are nuances and levels to this black and white extreme depiction. 

The Leafs are doing better (but will they in the playoffs?) because of the foundation that Babcock put in place that they used to build upon combined with the maturation of their young star draft picks. I doubt however, that it will win in the tough checking playoff games. They may get out of the North division if they end up star against star with Edmonton but neither will get further without massive luck. Matthews has yet to prove himself in the playoffs. Babcock was one Jake Gardiner replacement away from beating Boston twice. 

What has Granato done that is so special? We're DEAD LAST IN THE LEAGUE. We managed 1 win out of 7 against Pittsburgh and Boston and 2 against Washington. Wow, we are SO GOOD NOW!!!!!!!!   Granato just shifted us back to Housley hockey so some of these guys liked it better than the defense first approach they hated and couldn't seem to grasp. By the end of it Skinner was back on the 4th line and we could barely generate any scoring chances when the opposition checked us hard. We only won when the opposition took us lightly. It's a joke. Staying the course will mean just that, dead last again. 

Tortorella is available. He's now my first choice. Sabres will not agree with that idea I am almost sure of that. Wouldn't be surprised if the Kraken hire him instead. Build their foundation the right way so in 2 years they can move ahead of us too. 

We will hire Granato and talk a bunch of bs about how we're headed in the right direction. Almost sure of it, cause that's what we do. 

Damn I miss the Imlach years. 

Pamper the superstars? What the heck are you talking about? The problem isn't that our one and only superstar (who was injured for most of the season) is pampered as it is not enough talent on the team. That's the heart of the matter for this failed franchise. And on top of that it is foolishly managed. Compare the difference how this team performed with Granato behind the bench instead of the prior more eloquent coach who was a disaster. Granato took a team that cratered under Krueger and infused it with children from the AHL resulting in this team playing dramatically better. Maybe you are not able to see the difference in the quality of play but it was evident to anyone who had a penny's worth of objectivity. 

You may have noticed it but Babcock was fired. And you may not be aware of it that this team has performed better without his tiresome scowling phony tough guy act. You want Tortorella? He's on the market because he was fired, again, and again, and again, and again. The worst thing this franchise needs is an old time Neanderthal coach for this young team. When one has to resort to going back to the Imlach era to find a solution to what's going on now in hockey is beyond being absurd. 

 

[Radar]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

Well two things to this. First, they did spend money and they failed so perhaps as owners they have decided no more, time to cut losses and try something else. Perhaps putting more of their time into watching their successful team, the Bills, which was built a different way. Perhaps they see that success and have rethought their hockey plan? We don't know since they don't say, they only tell us they know things we don't. 

 

So you want to pamper the superstars? That'll get you to the cup? So when Bruce Cassidy benches Jake DeBrusk he's a bully? There are nuances and levels to this black and white extreme depiction. 

The Leafs are doing better (but will they in the playoffs?) because of the foundation that Babcock put in place that they used to build upon combined with the maturation of their young star draft picks. I doubt however, that it will win in the tough checking playoff games. They may get out of the North division if they end up star against star with Edmonton but neither will get further without massive luck. Matthews has yet to prove himself in the playoffs. Babcock was one Jake Gardiner replacement away from beating Boston twice. 

What has Granato done that is so special? We're DEAD LAST IN THE LEAGUE. We managed 1 win out of 7 against Pittsburgh and Boston and 2 against Washington. Wow, we are SO GOOD NOW!!!!!!!!   Granato just shifted us back to Housley hockey so some of these guys liked it better than the defense first approach they hated and couldn't seem to grasp. By the end of it Skinner was back on the 4th line and we could barely generate any scoring chances when the opposition checked us hard. We only won when the opposition took us lightly. It's a joke. Staying the course will mean just that, dead last again. 

Tortorella is available. He's now my first choice. Sabres will not agree with that idea I am almost sure of that. Wouldn't be surprised if the Kraken hire him instead. Build their foundation the right way so in 2 years they can move ahead of us too. 

We will hire Granato and talk a bunch of bs about how we're headed in the right direction. Almost sure of it, cause that's what we do. 

Damn I miss the Imlach years. 

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree on Torts. Don't want him at all. Granato would be my choice over his antics. He knows how to coach but he's his own worst enemy. Gallant or another established coach okay, but spare us Torts please.

[FogBat]

9 minutes ago, Radar said:

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree on Torts. Don't want him at all. Granato would be my choice over his antics. He knows how to coach but he's his own worst enemy. Gallant or another established coach okay, but spare us Torts please.

Rick Tocchet is available. Fire away! https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2942852-rick-tocchet-coyotes-mutually-agree-to-part-ways-after-4-seasons

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Crosschecking said:

Rick Tocchet is available. Fire away! https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2942852-rick-tocchet-coyotes-mutually-agree-to-part-ways-after-4-seasons

I won't say no.

[dudacek]

I have no preferred choices, but Torterella (who I like) and Tocchet (who I don't) would be terrible choices for this group of players.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Pamper the superstars? What the heck are you talking about? The problem isn't that our one and only superstar (who was injured for most of the season) is pampered as it is not enough talent on the team. That's the heart of the matter for this failed franchise. And on top of that it is foolishly managed. Compare the difference how this team performed with Granato behind the bench instead of the prior more eloquent coach who was a disaster. Granato took a team that cratered under Krueger and infused it with children from the AHL resulting in this team playing dramatically better. Maybe you are not able to see the difference in the quality of play but it was evident to anyone who had a penny's worth of objectivity. 

You may have noticed it but Babcock was fired. And you may not be aware of it that this team has performed better without his tiresome scowling phony tough guy act. You want Tortorella? He's on the market because he was fired, again, and again, and again, and again. The worst thing this franchise needs is an old time Neanderthal coach for this young team. When one has to resort to going back to the Imlach era to find a solution to what's going on now in hockey is beyond being absurd. 

 

The "heck" I'm talking about is a response to the idea that "today's players" etc need some sort of mollycoddle treatment. Wasn't that Kreuger? Just praise and positive thinking? We've been following this for a decade and it's got us underachiever after underachiever. Players come here and get worse, they leave and get better. And yet you're afraid a new coach might yell at them for crap play and bruise their little overpaid egos. Enough is enough.

All great coaches get fired at some point. Fired doesn't mean washed up. Or would you argue that Florida should have never hired Quenneville? 

Tortorella was let go by Columbus after 6 years of making a team with limited talent (compared to their opposition) OVERachieve year after year. The GM praised him for creating a culture and foundation that is strong and they can build off of. I will gladly take 6 years of overachieving with a roster that you yourself say has "not enough talent" rather than this crap. We desperately need that foundation/culture rebuild, and only then the talent will prosper. 

This idea that Granato made them so much better is a myth. They're not. He loosened things up and so they had fun and played free and easy and scored some goals in some games which made it a little more pleasing to watch, but they were hopeless against tight checking and cannot defend against sustained pressure if their lives depended on it (and don't even dream they could handle a Tom Wilson team if that team decided to play us hard). We got shutout by 3rd string goalies!!!!!! We are not much better than we were. 

Lastly, don't you be disrespecting Punch Imlach. That era when we made it to the final against Philly and when we beat down those Russians was the era of the best Sabres hockey ever played. We had some stars, but they worked hard, they fought, they stuck together and stood up for each other. They had character and identity and they were respected by the opposition. We were pretty good when we rode the talents of a legendary goalie, but those early years were the absolute pinnacle for this franchise and we are nowhere near that peak. Nowhere. 

[PerreaultForever]

54 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I have no preferred choices, but Torterella (who I like) and Tocchet (who I don't) would be terrible choices for this group of players.

so change the players.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

The "heck" I'm talking about is a response to the idea that "today's players" etc need some sort of mollycoddle treatment. Wasn't that Kreuger? Just praise and positive thinking? We've been following this for a decade and it's got us underachiever after underachiever. Players come here and get worse, they leave and get better. And yet you're afraid a new coach might yell at them for crap play and bruise their little overpaid egos. Enough is enough.

All great coaches get fired at some point. Fired doesn't mean washed up. Or would you argue that Florida should have never hired Quenneville? 

Tortorella was let go by Columbus after 6 years of making a team with limited talent (compared to their opposition) OVERachieve year after year. The GM praised him for creating a culture and foundation that is strong and they can build off of. I will gladly take 6 years of overachieving with a roster that you yourself say has "not enough talent" rather than this crap. We desperately need that foundation/culture rebuild, and only then the talent will prosper. 

This idea that Granato made them so much better is a myth. They're not. He loosened things up and so they had fun and played free and easy and scored some goals in some games which made it a little more pleasing to watch, but they were hopeless against tight checking and cannot defend against sustained pressure if their lives depended on it (and don't even dream they could handle a Tom Wilson team if that team decided to play us hard). We got shutout by 3rd string goalies!!!!!! We are not much better than we were. 

Lastly, don't you be disrespecting Punch Imlach. That era when we made it to the final against Philly and when we beat down those Russians was the era of the best Sabres hockey ever played. We had some stars, but they worked hard, they fought, they stuck together and stood up for each other. They had character and identity and they were respected by the opposition. We were pretty good when we rode the talents of a legendary goalie, but those early years were the absolute pinnacle for this franchise and we are nowhere near that peak. Nowhere. 

The Punch Imlach era was half a century ago! How management handled players in that era is long gun. It's a different world with contracts and free agency. If you want to look back to the bygone days for issues associated with today's hockey world then keep up with your search. If you want to look back then do so. I'm looking forward. 

[Buffalonill]

3 hours ago, Crosschecking said:

Rick Tocchet is available. Fire away! https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2942852-rick-tocchet-coyotes-mutually-agree-to-part-ways-after-4-seasons

 Should go back to assistant coaching he sucks

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The Punch Imlach era was half a century ago! How management handled players in that era is long gun. It's a different world with contracts and free agency. If you want to look back to the bygone days for issues associated with today's hockey world then keep up with your search. If you want to look back then do so. I'm looking forward. 

I know full well it's a long time ago, but what I am saying is that era was Buffalo's best era. Don't blame me that we haven't had so much success over the decades that it's just one of many good eras. It stands out as a different time. 

Yes, things are different in today's league, but many aspects of hockey are still the same. Men might make less homophobic jokes and they might not have a shaggin' wagon parked outside like Danny Gare used to and so forth but it's still a boys club and it's still a team dynamic and the boys bond in many of the same ways they always did. Rangers bonded big time this past week. You might find it silly, you might not like it, but trust me, that team grew up and became a team. You think we would have responded at all? 

The Imlach era had an identity. They were a team. We are a grouping of individuals with only an identity of losing at the moment. You don't change that easily, and it's not as easy as saying just start winning. It won't happen. I've been around enough teams in my life to know what the psychological make up of a successful team has to be, and we ain't it. 

[Zamboni]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The Punch Imlach era was half a century ago! How management handled players in that era is long gun. It's a different world with contracts and free agency. If you want to look back to the bygone days for issues associated with today's hockey world then keep up with your search. If you want to look back then do so. I'm looking forward. 

But but but I’m not looking back… I’m looking forward. Now, let me tell you about the early 70s Buffalo Sabres 😂

 

Anyone on here who is older than 50, know full well about the early Sabres. Bloody hell....

 

Meanwhile .... in 2021 ... in today’s NHL, what’s a logical, measured, realistic, and effective approach to getting the next coach that will get the most out of the majority of this group? Because fantasy wishing isn’t gonna happen. Like “get rid of everyone!” Or “hire a coach that’s gonna kick everyone’s ass in the locker room!” Good grief.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I know full well it's a long time ago, but what I am saying is that era was Buffalo's best era. Don't blame me that we haven't had so much success over the decades that it's just one of many good eras. It stands out as a different time. 

Yes, things are different in today's league, but many aspects of hockey are still the same. Men might make less homophobic jokes and they might not have a shaggin' wagon parked outside like Danny Gare used to and so forth but it's still a boys club and it's still a team dynamic and the boys bond in many of the same ways they always did. Rangers bonded big time this past week. You might find it silly, you might not like it, but trust me, that team grew up and became a team. You think we would have responded at all? 

The Imlach era had an identity. They were a team. We are a grouping of individuals with only an identity of losing at the moment. You don't change that easily, and it's not as easy as saying just start winning. It won't happen. I've been around enough teams in my life to know what the psychological make up of a successful team has to be, and we ain't it. 

We certainly don't have the right makeup. It's primarily due to the lack of talent. And it's also due to an incongruent mixture of players. When you have an extended history of bad management and constantly changing of staffs what do you expect? You certainly are not going to have a stable franchise when it is erratically run. No matter how many oldsters you want to bring back to the future they will not be the solution to a failed operation in this modern NHL era.  A preponderance of bad decisions predictably are going to lead to bad results.  

If you want to believe that the Rangers fighting in the last or second last game of the season is going to be a meaningful bonding factor then go ahead and believe that old school fantasy/bullllshiiit. That adrenalin rush will have absolutely no carryover. I'm not saying that teammates shouldn't stick up for one another. But what I am saying is thuggish hockey doesn't trump more talented teams that play well together.  

You are absolutely right that the Imlach era had an identity. And it should be understood that every era has its own identity. I'm confident that the Imlach era/approach would be an abject failure if it was applied to this era. Change is inevitable in the sports world as it is in life. Looking back for solutions is not going to lead you to success.  

Edited May 10, 2021 by JohnC

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

But but but I’m not looking back… I’m looking forward. Now, let me tell you about the early 70s Buffalo Sabres 😂

 

Anyone on here who is older than 50, know full well about the early Sabres. Bloody hell....

 

Meanwhile .... in 2021 ... in today’s NHL, what’s a logical, measured, realistic, and effective approach to getting the next coach that will get the most out of the majority of this group? Because fantasy wishing isn’t gonna happen. Like “get rid of everyone!” Or “hire a coach that’s gonna kick everyone’s ass in the locker room!” Good grief.

Some people want to go to the zoo in the hope of seeing the cuddly dinosaurs. 

[Andrew Amerk]

33 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Some people want to go to the zoo in the hope of seeing the cuddly dinosaurs. 

I loved reading Jurassic Park. Don’t knock my Crichton book!

Edited May 10, 2021 by Andrew Amerk

[Andrew Amerk]

5 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Aw *****.

Here comes the swarm of Sabres fans wanting Torts, when he will be going back to NYR to coach their new shiny object Eichel. 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I loved reading Jurassic Park. Don’t knock my Crichton book!

You better be able to run fast because the big critters can move fast and they like meat. ☠️

[Andrew Amerk]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

You better be able to run fast because the big critters can move fast and they like meat. ☠️

I just hope the velociraptors haven’t figured out how to use doors. 

[PerreaultForever]

50 minutes ago, JohnC said:

We certainly don't have the right makeup. It's primarily due to the lack of talent. And it's also due to an incongruent mixture of players. When you have an extended history of bad management and constantly changing of staffs what do you expect? You certainly are not going to have a stable franchise when it is erratically run. No matter how many oldsters you want to bring back to the future they will not be the solution to a failed operation in this modern NHL era.  A preponderance of bad decisions predictably are going to lead to bad results.  

If you want to believe that the Rangers fighting in the last or second last game of the season is going to be a meaningful bonding factor then go ahead and believe that old school fantasy/bullllshiiit. That adrenalin rush will have absolutely no carryover. I'm not saying that teammates shouldn't stick up for one another. But what I am saying is thuggish hockey doesn't trump more talented teams that play well together.  

You are absolutely right that the Imlach era had an identity. And it should be understood that every era has its own identity. I'm confident that the Imlach era/approach would be an abject failure if it was applied to this era. Change is inevitable in the sports world as it is in life. Looking back for solutions is not going to lead you to success.  

You are totally misreading and mischaracterizing what I said. Not much point in going over it again.

Suffice it to say your "incongruent mixture of players" is the direct result of a lack of clear identity and comes about from building top down rather than bottom up. 

Lastly, falling back on thuggery vs. talent is a tired strawman argument. It's about balance, team spirit, and unity. Teams without it fail.