SDS Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 From the New York Times in 2012: ”In one study, he examined what happened in the 10 minutes after every fight in 2008-9 for which a clear winner was chosen by fans voting on the popular site hockeyfights.com. Desjardins found that the team of the winning fighter had an uptick of 0.07 goals — or, as he said, “winning a fight is worth a little more than 1/80th of a win in the standings.” Two other statisticians who do consulting work with N.H.L. clubs, Kevin Mongeon and Mike Boyle of the Sports Analytics Institute, say that fights did tend to open up a game, increasing offense in the five minutes that follow. “On average, every 10 to 11 fights, a goal is created,” they said. But, Mongeon and Boyle added, “fighting has no effect on winning”; the goals scored in those five minutes are almost evenly divided between goals for and goals against. Another statistics group, PowerScout Hockey, analyzed the three minutes of play that followed 1,563 fights from October 2009 to Dec. 21, 2011, and came to the same conclusion. “We found that fighting by itself does not significantly help a team score more goals or win more games, but it can often increase short-term momentum for one or both teams,” said Marc Appleby, the chief executive of PowerScout Hockey. The company’s research found that it would take 30 to 60 fights to generate a single extra victory.” 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, SDS said: From the New York Times in 2012: ”In one study, he examined what happened in the 10 minutes after every fight in 2008-9 for which a clear winner was chosen by fans voting on the popular site hockeyfights.com. Desjardins found that the team of the winning fighter had an uptick of 0.07 goals — or, as he said, “winning a fight is worth a little more than 1/80th of a win in the standings.” Two other statisticians who do consulting work with N.H.L. clubs, Kevin Mongeon and Mike Boyle of the Sports Analytics Institute, say that fights did tend to open up a game, increasing offense in the five minutes that follow. “On average, every 10 to 11 fights, a goal is created,” they said. But, Mongeon and Boyle added, “fighting has no effect on winning”; the goals scored in those five minutes are almost evenly divided between goals for and goals against. Another statistics group, PowerScout Hockey, analyzed the three minutes of play that followed 1,563 fights from October 2009 to Dec. 21, 2011, and came to the same conclusion. “We found that fighting by itself does not significantly help a team score more goals or win more games, but it can often increase short-term momentum for one or both teams,” said Marc Appleby, the chief executive of PowerScout Hockey. The company’s research found that it would take 30 to 60 fights to generate a single extra victory.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Amerk Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, SDS said: From the New York Times in 2012: ”In one study, he examined what happened in the 10 minutes after every fight in 2008-9 for which a clear winner was chosen by fans voting on the popular site hockeyfights.com. Desjardins found that the team of the winning fighter had an uptick of 0.07 goals — or, as he said, “winning a fight is worth a little more than 1/80th of a win in the standings.” Two other statisticians who do consulting work with N.H.L. clubs, Kevin Mongeon and Mike Boyle of the Sports Analytics Institute, say that fights did tend to open up a game, increasing offense in the five minutes that follow. “On average, every 10 to 11 fights, a goal is created,” they said. But, Mongeon and Boyle added, “fighting has no effect on winning”; the goals scored in those five minutes are almost evenly divided between goals for and goals against. Another statistics group, PowerScout Hockey, analyzed the three minutes of play that followed 1,563 fights from October 2009 to Dec. 21, 2011, and came to the same conclusion. “We found that fighting by itself does not significantly help a team score more goals or win more games, but it can often increase short-term momentum for one or both teams,” said Marc Appleby, the chief executive of PowerScout Hockey. The company’s research found that it would take 30 to 60 fights to generate a single extra victory.” Thats only a vague study on the short term, in game effects. How do these moments effect a team longer term? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerreaultForever Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 52 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said: I’m guessing the response would be “still didn’t make a difference in the game outcome so it was pointless.” Ya, that was the response but on the ice it shouldn't have been. The sad thing is the 20 year old has to lead the way. On most teams this guy would have been applauded, high fived and cheered by his team mates all standing and banging their sticks and then the energy would be up and the rest of them would come out flying. But not this lot. I think a few guys played a little harder for a few minutes, but not many. You don't overhaul this sad sack roster it won't be long before Cozens joins the F it why bother trying club. get rid of them all before we break this kid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruppstahl Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 There were actually a lot of things to like about this game tonight. Overall competitiveness was better than normal. I thought Skinner had his best game in a long time and he was rewarded with 15 minutes + of ice time, which is good for him, given how much Ralph hates him! Cozens' game in general continues to be strong and the fight was just outstanding. Hutton's goaltending was still terrible, though he made a huge save late in the 3rd to keep it at 3-2. He made a few good saves. The Lazar line looked like our best much of the time, which is not really a good thing, but you can't blame Lazar's line for hustling. Montour made a great play at the blue line when Hall fell down to save us from a clean breakaway from center ice. The bad: Eichel continues to float, stand around, and refuses to move his feet. He is mentally checked out. I'm starting to think he has already asked for the trade, hence the way he has approached this season. He is nowhere close to trying his best. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tucker Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, SDS said: “We found that fighting by itself does not significantly help a team score more goals or win more games, but it can often increase short-term momentum for one or both teams,” said Marc Appleby, the chief executive of PowerScout Hockey. The company’s research found that it would take 30 to 60 fights to generate a single extra victory.” All of the data is garbage. Honestly, who cares. This is the most important part of it. This team, hell any team, can benefit from a short term increase in momentum. Fighting in and of itself won't win hockey games... Again, duh. Being willing to go to high traffic areas, playing tough, and fighting to help build momentum does. This team doesn't have any of that. A damn kid gets pissed off enough at losing and battles. Hopefully the other dead weight marshmallows take notice. You may be excited to watch 82 men's hockey league games a year but this guy isn't! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerreaultForever Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 I find it hilarious that there's a debate here over whether the fight was a good idea or not. Maybe the broken culture comes from the fanbase. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, SDS said: From the New York Times in 2012: ”In one study, he examined what happened in the 10 minutes after every fight in 2008-9 for which a clear winner was chosen by fans voting on the popular site hockeyfights.com. Desjardins found that the team of the winning fighter had an uptick of 0.07 goals — or, as he said, “winning a fight is worth a little more than 1/80th of a win in the standings.” Two other statisticians who do consulting work with N.H.L. clubs, Kevin Mongeon and Mike Boyle of the Sports Analytics Institute, say that fights did tend to open up a game, increasing offense in the five minutes that follow. “On average, every 10 to 11 fights, a goal is created,” they said. But, Mongeon and Boyle added, “fighting has no effect on winning”; the goals scored in those five minutes are almost evenly divided between goals for and goals against. Another statistics group, PowerScout Hockey, analyzed the three minutes of play that followed 1,563 fights from October 2009 to Dec. 21, 2011, and came to the same conclusion. “We found that fighting by itself does not significantly help a team score more goals or win more games, but it can often increase short-term momentum for one or both teams,” said Marc Appleby, the chief executive of PowerScout Hockey. The company’s research found that it would take 30 to 60 fights to generate a single extra victory.” One extra victory a year might be the difference between playoffs or no playoffs. Either way, the data clearly states that the hockey is more exciting following a fight. Is that not reason enough to do it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said: Another loss pinned on Hutton. Can’t come up with the big Saves and let’s in a softie He had one bad goal. The other two were defensive brain farts by the Sabres. Stop giving the players in front a pass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jävə Keith Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said: I find it hilarious that there's a debate here over whether the fight was a good idea or not. Maybe the broken culture comes from the fanbase. Maybe if this team showed half an ounce of the passion this fanbase has, then maybe the culture would not be broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, SwampD said: One extra victory a year might be the difference between playoffs or no playoffs. Either way, the data clearly states that the hockey is more exciting following a fight. Is that not reason enough to do it? it appeals to the nostalgia of men of a certain age. It’s also happens to be that our community skews that way too. I’m in that age group, but I have a radically different perspective of a game and a lot of things from western New York. it’s almost as if the people here don’t think they’re actually talking about human beings. How many of you get up every day and physically punch your coworkers? What do you think that would do to you if you routinely had to go to work doing something you love and had to have a performative altercation? It’s been going away for 40 years and when this older generation dies off, it’ll be out of the game for good. From Matthew Barnaby: "I loved the era that I played in and miss the rivalries that were formed," he said. "There were a lot of afternoon naps that were filled with sweaty palms, but the game has never been better and safer. Some fans are always going to miss the way it was, but I'll take watching unreal skill over the fights." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/27283018/the-new-normal-why-fighting-nhl-dropped-historic-lows%3fplatform=amp 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Scouts Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said: I find it hilarious that there's a debate here over whether the fight was a good idea or not. Maybe the broken culture comes from the fanbase. I do too.... I found it Entertaining !!! Yes, I enjoyed watching one of our players fight back for a change. Too Bad if someone disagrees with me. Thank-You Dylan. !!!!! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jävə Keith Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, SDS said: it’s almost as if the people here don’t think they’re actually talking about human beings. How many of you get up every day and physically punch your coworkers? What do you think that would do to you if you routinely had to go to work doing something you love and had to have a performative altercation? If our job was professional hockey, you betcha! This is a physical SPORT, not a business/non-profit/thoughtworkplace. Poor analogy. Would you say the same thing if your job was a soldier going against any enemy in the theater of war? But they are human beings.... The wussification of America is complete. Time to surrender and hang up our man pants. Edited March 3, 2021 by Jävə Keith 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 hour ago, SDS said: Literally made ZERO difference. Lost 3-2. Number of goals scored after the fight - ZERO. Play prior and after - the same. Thankfully he didn’t break his hand hitting something that made zero difference. 55 minutes ago, SDS said: A goal would have meant more than the nothing that happened. 57 minutes ago, SDS said: A plastic potato bothers you? 🙄 It's funny the way metanarratives evolve - these views have lost a lot of their shine now that they no longer possess the edginess inherent to countercultural thinking. They stand rather nakedly, with not much to offer beneath the layer of smugness that cakes them I didn't watch the game, but I heard a lot of callers, hosts, former hockey players, and current hockey players buzzing with energy afterwards because of Dylan Cozens. Being honest, I thought they had won the game when I started listening. Actually, it was so jarring that I was wondering why one close win against a bad team could make everyone sound like this given the context of this season (and decade). Almost exactly two years ago, Brandon Montour, Evan Rodrigues, and Conor Sheary combined to produce a goal with less than 3 minutes remaining. They won the game in overtime. I'd bet that less than 5% of the posters on this board can tell me anything else about the game I've just described. The reality is, had the Sabres tied and won tonight, Sabres players and fans wouldn't think about it again for the rest of their lives by the time this coming Islanders series is over. But there is a nonzero chance that Sabres fans talk about this Cozens fight a decade from now, and they certainly will remember it 3 years from now. It so obviously meant something to the players, fans, former players, and radio hosts that watched it - this was immediately self-evident. Humans use storytelling to drive their entire understanding of their universe and their place in it, to carry cultures and civilizations, and if Cozens works out the way he has a shot at working out, that fight will without a doubt kick off the Cozens chapter of Buffalo Sabre lore. The ugly context that depreciates the value a 3rd period tie will have to this season and our lasting memory of it also serves to amplify what he just did. It was so stark, fresh, invigorating, and you're the only one I've come across tonight that hasn't felt that. I certainly agree that the role of a strict enforcer does not serve the ultimate current goal that keeps people employed in the NHL, and so it will remain extinct (maybe forever, certainly for now). But I cannot deny the ballet of raw violence and passion that is competitive major sports, nor the role that these play for building and guiding males in societies spanning continents and millenia, and that these things will create moments like tonight time and time again. Particularly in our beloved ice hockey. To deny this is to ignore nature itself. Oh, and while the mention of the potato was certainly out of context, it's pretty disingenuous to imply that the rapidly-accelerating descent into clown world implanting one of its more baffling developments into a sane & normal guy's mind is a more unnatural/contemptable instance of "being bothered" than a toy company feeling compelled "remove the gendered nature" of, or "de-gender," or whatever you want to call it, a toy they made 70 years ago called Mr. Potato Head, which spent that entire span of time firmly embedded in our pop culture, but that's probably for another board 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, SDS said: it appeals to the nostalgia of men of a certain age. It’s also happens to be that our community skews that way too. I’m in that age group, but I have a radically different perspective of a game and a lot of things from western New York. it’s almost as if the people here don’t think they’re actually talking about human beings. How many of you get up every day and physically punch your coworkers? What do you think that would do to you if you routinely had to go to work doing something you love and had to have a performative altercation? It’s been going away for 40 years and when this older generation dies off, it’ll be out of the game for good. From Matthew Barnaby: "I loved the era that I played in and miss the rivalries that were formed," he said. "There were a lot of afternoon naps that were filled with sweaty palms, but the game has never been better and safer. Some fans are always going to miss the way it was, but I'll take watching unreal skill over the fights." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/27283018/the-new-normal-why-fighting-nhl-dropped-historic-lows%3fplatform=amp Matthew Barnaby,… hockey sage. lol It's not nostalgia. It's fun to watch now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottysabres Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 Well, in the meantime, I am watching what is most likely Eichel's last season as a Sabres. I don't think Reinhart is going to want to be here either. I believe we are going to be looking at another rebuild of some type. Sadly, the incompetence of ownership via it's management hirings over these past 8 years at least have effectively brought the tear down and rebuild from the ground up strategy a complete and utter failure. I feel for this fan base, and I'm a born and bred one of us, but this is a tragedy for the Sabres faithful that gets even worse as their appears to be no end to the madness that brought us here. Just a complete sad state of affairs for the hockey franchise. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruppstahl Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 This is from the NYR post game show. Listen to Steve Valliquette ream out the Sabres! Loved it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7+6=13 Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 I'd argue that fight meant more than a win without it would have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jävə Keith Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said: This is from the NYR post game show. Listen to Steve Valliquette ream out the Sabres! Loved it. Can you post a different link to the video? This Twitter User blocks views of its posts and the video wont even play here on our board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: It's funny the way metanarratives evolve - these views have lost a lot of their shine now that they no longer possess the edginess inherent to countercultural thinking. They stand rather nakedly, with not much to offer beneath the layer of smugness that cakes them I didn't watch the game, but I heard a lot of callers, hosts, former hockey players, and current hockey players buzzing with energy afterwards because of Dylan Cozens. Being honest, I thought they had won the game when I started listening. Actually, it was so jarring that I was wondering why one close win against a bad team could make everyone sound like this given the context of this season (and decade). Almost exactly two years ago, Brandon Montour, Evan Rodrigues, and Conor Sheary combined to produce a goal with less than 3 minutes remaining. They won the game in overtime. I'd bet that less than 5% of the posters on this board can tell me anything else about the game I've just described. The reality is, had the Sabres tied and won tonight, Sabres players and fans wouldn't think about it again for the rest of their lives by the time this coming Islanders series is over. But there is a nonzero chance that Sabres fans talk about this Cozens fight a decade from now, and they certainly will remember it 3 years from now. It so obviously meant something to the players, fans, former players, and radio hosts that watched it - this was immediately self-evident. Humans use storytelling to drive their entire understanding of their universe and their place in it, to carry cultures and civilizations, and if Cozens works out the way he has a shot at working out, that fight will without a doubt kick off the Cozens chapter of Buffalo Sabre lore. The ugly context that depreciates the value a 3rd period tie will have to this season and our lasting memory of it also serves to amplify what he just did. It was so stark, fresh, invigorating, and you're the only one I've come across tonight that hasn't felt that. I certainly agree that the role of a strict enforcer does not serve the ultimate current goal that keeps people employed in the NHL, and so it will remain extinct (maybe forever, certainly for now). But I cannot deny the ballet of raw violence and passion that is competitive major sports, nor the role that these play for building and guiding males in societies spanning continents and millenia, and that these things will create moments like tonight time and time again. Particularly in our beloved ice hockey. To deny this is to ignore nature itself. Oh, and while the mention of the potato was certainly out of context, it's pretty disingenuous to imply that the rapidly-accelerating descent into clown world implanting one of its more baffling developments into a sane & normal guy's mind is a more unnatural/contemptable instance of "being bothered" than a toy company feeling compelled "remove the gendered nature" of, or "de-gender," or whatever you want to call it, a toy they made 70 years ago called Mr. Potato Head, which spent that entire span of time firmly embedded in our pop culture, but that's probably for another board Dude, WTF?! You write beautifully. You need to write a book. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Scouts Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said: This is from the NYR post game show. Listen to Steve Valliquette ream out the Sabres! Loved it. Can 't argue with him. Sabres suck. We have known it for 10 years. This is a revelation? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruppstahl Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, KC Scouts said: Can 't argue with him. Sabres suck. We have known it for 10 years. This is a revelation? Not a revelation, but when an analyst for another NHL team says this on their post game show, it's pretty bad IMO. I mean he really threw us under the bus! LOL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said: Not a revelation, but when an analyst for another NHL team says this on their post game show, it's pretty bad IMO. I mean he really threw us under the bus! LOL Maybe it’ll rattle a cage in Pegulaville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Scouts Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said: Not a revelation, but when an analyst for another NHL team says this on their post game show, it's pretty bad IMO. I mean he really threw us under the bus! LOL I agree, its not flattering.....It also the Rangers demonstrating to their fans "Hey, at least we are not them" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorman0519 Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 14 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said: This is from the NYR post game show. Listen to Steve Valliquette ream out the Sabres! Loved it. Yup. Everyone sees it except our front office apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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