Fixing the Sabres Long-Term - Can it be done?

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 hours ago, spndnchz said:

I think one of the biggest problems is turnover. Fans as well as players (a few said this in the exit interviews) are tired of starting over and over during the season and even between seasons. There’s no direction. 

Had they drafted well (obviously a big caveat) and kept their draft assets and prospects they would have had direction and likely would have built a better team then we have now.  

The good news is that Jbot drafted better then his predecessor and we actually have a prospect pool and young player to build around.  This would be a proper new direction. It will be better if both Jack and Sam stay, but I think the youth movement can succeed with just one of the 2 "stars."  

It's surprising to me how many posters he want to burn it down again.  

[Radar]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Had they drafted well (obviously a big caveat) and kept their draft assets and prospects they would have had direction and likely would have built a better team then we have now.  

The good news is that Jbot drafted better then his predecessor and we actually have a prospect pool and young player to build around.  This would be a proper new direction. It will be better if both Jack and Sam stay, but I think the youth movement can succeed with just one of the 2 "stars."  

It's surprising to me how many posters he want to burn it down again.  

I think Rhino is gone. Eichel maybe gone or they show him some reason to want to stay. What that would be? Who knows. I didn't sense Jack excited about anything.

[I-90 W]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Had they drafted well (obviously a big caveat) and kept their draft assets and prospects they would have had direction and likely would have built a better team then we have now.  

The good news is that Jbot drafted better then his predecessor and we actually have a prospect pool and young player to build around.  This would be a proper new direction. It will be better if both Jack and Sam stay, but I think the youth movement can succeed with just one of the 2 "stars."  

It's surprising to me how many posters he want to burn it down again.  

Personally I think a logical argument could be made that there is a locker room/ culture problem, and since Jack, Risto and possibly even Sam want out, this seems to be the opportune time to flush the club of the players who have been here during these horrible years. The bleeding has to stop, we have to turn the page. Not advocating for prospects or draft picks though, I’m talking established skilled players to add to our new core.
 

Admittedly it seems self defeating to theorize that moving our top players is addition by subtraction, but if they don’t want to be here, the toxicity will continue and worse, will spread.

[Curt]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Had they drafted well (obviously a big caveat) and kept their draft assets and prospects they would have had direction and likely would have built a better team then we have now.  

The good news is that Jbot drafted better then his predecessor and we actually have a prospect pool and young player to build around.  This would be a proper new direction. It will be better if both Jack and Sam stay, but I think the youth movement can succeed with just one of the 2 "stars."  

It's surprising to me how many posters he want to burn it down again.  

I don’t really want to burn it all down, but I don’t see how you can think that any of Jack, Sam, or Risto is still going to be here 12 months from now.

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t really want to burn it all down, but I don’t see how you can think that any of Jack, Sam, or Risto is still going to be here 12 months from now.

I don't know who is going to be here, but I do understand contract law.  Jack has a contract.  Risto has a contract.  Sam can't sign anywhere else unless the Sabres agree.  Might it be prudent to move some of these guys before they gain free agent status or Jack NMC. Possibly, but if they comeback next season with a more stable front office and a competitive team, do you really think they are going to demand to be traded.  Winning fixes most locker room problems.

[Jerry Jabber]

8 hours ago, spndnchz said:

I think one of the biggest problems is turnover. Fans as well as players (a few said this in the exit interviews) are tired of starting over and over during the season and even between seasons. There’s no direction. 

IMO, that can be attributed to hiring inexperienced GM’s every few years, as the new GM had his way of building the team and it backfired. We saw this cycle with the Bills for many years until McDermott and Beane were hired, rebuilt the Bills their way and made it successful. While the Pegula’s hit a home run in hiring a first time head coach [Beane] and first time GM [McDermott], I know Terry has gotten a lot of advice from Bill Polian since he bought the Bills. Maybe it’s about time Terry seeks out an experienced hockey guy and listens to him, in order to get out of this vicious circle the Sabres have been in.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't know who is going to be here, but I do understand contract law.  Jack has a contract.  Risto has a contract.  Sam can't sign anywhere else unless the Sabres agree.  Might it be prudent to move some of these guys before they gain free agent status or Jack NMC. Possibly, but if they comeback next season with a more stable front office and a competitive team, do you really think they are going to demand to be traded.  Winning fixes most locker room problems.

You can risk it with Jack. I don't think that would be a smart play, if he's set on moving, but you can make the argument to play hardball. 

Sam's situation isn't like that. He has all the leverage - this isn't a "we're gonna have to move him cause we suck" or "he's demanding out, gonna have to move him" type deal, this is just everyday, par for the course RFA asset management - you sign him for longer than a year or you trade him, that's it. You don't enter into the season with him on a 1 year deal, or he's as good as gone. They made this bed by how they've handled his contracts, they've walked him to UFA. 

If we sign him for 1 year, even if everything works out and we make the playoffs - he's still a to-be UFA. He's going to test the market, why wouldn't he? We never committed to him on a long term deal, why would he commit to us without seeing other offers? Best case scenario, we are "on par" with the other suitors by way of making the playoffs. I guess then that puts us on equal ground? Then, at best, if he has nothing particularly against Buffalo, and, at best, he doesn't have a particular team or team he wants to go to, it comes down to who pays the most: and when there will unquestionably be multiple suitors for his services, it comes down to Cash and even if there are only *2* other suitors, the odds are against us keeping him. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You can risk it with Jack. I don't think that would be a smart play, if he's set on moving, but you can make the argument to play hardball. 

Sam's situation isn't like that. He has all the leverage - this isn't a "we're gonna have to move him cause we suck" or "he's demanding out, gonna have to move him" type deal, this is just everyday, par for the course RFA asset management - you sign him for longer than a year or you trade him, that's it. You don't enter into the season with him on a 1 year deal, or he's as good as gone. They made this bed by how they've handled his contracts, they've walked him to UFA. 

If we sign him for 1 year, even if everything works out and we make the playoffs - he's still a to-be UFA. He's going to test the market, why wouldn't he? We never committed to him on a long term deal, why would he commit to us without seeing other offers? Best case scenario, we are "on par" with the other suitors by way of making the playoffs. I guess then that puts us on equal ground? Then, at best, if he has nothing particularly against Buffalo, and, at best, he doesn't have a particular team or team he wants to go to, it comes down to who pays the most: and when there will unquestionably be multiple suitors for his services, it comes down to Cash and even if there are only *2* other suitors, the odds are against us keeping him. 

This I can agree with the bolded with one caveat. Even if you sign him for just a year he is still tradable at the deadline and for a player of his caliber you'll get a very good price.   That assumes that the team isn't good again.  However if the team has turned the corner, which I believe it has, then I can see both parties working our an extension mid-season.  Still your approach is the more prudent approach.

 

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This I can agree with the bolded with one caveat. Even if you sign him for just a year he is still tradable at the deadline and for a player of his caliber you'll get a very good price.   That assumes that the team isn't good again.  However if the team has turned the corner, which I believe it has, then I can see both parties working our an extension mid-season.  Still your approach is the more prudent approach.

 

We say things like this a lot, and things like "just draft the best player available, and trade him for his equal at another position later", and both are examples of things that make sense in theory but never seem to actually transpire in reality

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We say things like this a lot, and things like "just draft the best player available, and trade him for his equal at another position later", and both are examples of things that make sense in theory but never seem to actually transpire in reality

Actually there were 12 extensions 3 years or longer signing during this season, including Demko, Binnington, Hartman, Iafallo, and Laughton.

Edited May 12, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Actually there were 12 extensions 3 years or longer signing during this season, including Demko, Binnington, Hartman, Iafallo, and Laughton.

I was referring to on Buffalo

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Actually there were 12 extensions 3 years or longer signing during this season, including Demko, Binnington, Hartman, Iafallo, and Laughton.

Also, I'll have to go through them all, but they aren't all comparable, anyways - Demko, Hartman, for example, were set to be RFAs when their deals expired, much different than a pending UFA.

Scott 2 Haughton does apply

Edit - as do Binnington and Iafallo. 

Haughton and Iafallo signed deals for 3 million and 4 million per - not exactly the contentious type of negotiation I'd expect from Sam. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Norcal]

4 hours ago, I-90 W said:

Unless the Pegula’s seriously step back and hand the reigns over, or sell the team, afraid any moves we make are just putting lipstick on a pig. 

That's not gonna happen.  They're the owners, they've spent the money and made the moves, they just haven't worked to date. The Pegulas aren't sitting in Adams office every day taking and making calls.

Karmanos has been hired for his experience and connections and will likely have a huge part in any transactions this off season.  

[I-90 W]

1 minute ago, Norcal said:

That's not gonna happen.  They're the owners, they've spent the money and made the moves, they just haven't worked to date. The Pegulas aren't sitting in Adams office every day taking and making calls.

Karmanos has been hired for his experience and connections and will likely have a huge part in any transactions this off season.  

What I saw from the Hall episode on Beyond the Blue says otherwise; Terry and Kim are involved in everything. KA was running stuff by TP in real time and Kim was talking to Hall before he was signed on speaker with everyone. They need to just write the checks and back off. It’s as if I was a billionaire and owned the team, except I would be smart enough to realize I’m just a rich fan. 

[Norcal]

23 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

What I saw from the Hall episode on Beyond the Blue says otherwise; Terry and Kim are involved in everything. KA was running stuff by TP in real time and Kim was talking to Hall before he was signed on speaker with everyone. They need to just write the checks and back off. It’s as if I was a billionaire and owned the team, except I would be smart enough to realize I’m just a rich fan. 

So you watched a Buffalo Sabres production that featured the owners of the team? Lights, camera, action.

I'm not saying the owners are not consulted, especially when it's $8 million real dollars involved but that was just a fan site video capturing a few moments of the negotiations, not the every day grind behind the scenes. 

Terry and Kim are not sitting at the desk as Adams takes and makes calls weighing in in real time. 

[I-90 W]

1 minute ago, Norcal said:

So you watched a Buffalo Sabres production that featured the owners of the team? Lights, camera, action.

I'm not saying the owners are not consulted, especially when it's $8 million real dollars involved but that was just a fan site video capturing a few moments of the negotiations, not the every day grind behind the scenes. 

Terry and Kim are not sitting at the desk as Adams takes and makes calls weighing in in real time. 

I don’t know, it looked pretty organic to me.

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, Norcal said:

So you watched a Buffalo Sabres production that featured the owners of the team? Lights, camera, action.

I'm not saying the owners are not consulted, especially when it's $8 million real dollars involved but that was just a fan site video capturing a few moments of the negotiations, not the every day grind behind the scenes. 

Terry and Kim are not sitting at the desk as Adams takes and makes calls weighing in in real time. 

For those who didn't watch the NFL draft, there were images of the Pegulas in draft room & Kim even announced 1 of the Bills selections.  But nobody is complaining about that.  Why?  Because Beane & Co have had the most (technically, the only) success this team has had in the new century.  They're good at their jobs & the Pegulas enjoying their purchase has not perceptably negatively affected the team since Beane was brought in. 

There really isn't any actual evidence that they meddle any more into the Sabres than they do into the Bills; they just haven't prior to Adams found the right guy/team to run the Sabres.  So, everytime they're in the picture it is assumed that they're running the nuts & bolts of the show.  Regardless of whether they are or aren't.   

Have they found the right guy with Adams?  Don't know, but hope so, because he's here for 2 more years if he's not the right guy.

(And we have to hope Adams makes the right call on the coach - regardless of whether that's Granato, Gallant, or somebody else.  Because that guy will also get close to 2 seasons - 2 seasons if he's the wrong guy.  And 8 years of at minimum having the wrong guy for the circumstances has grown old.)  

[Norcal]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

For those who didn't watch the NFL draft, there were images of the Pegulas in draft room & Kim even announced 1 of the Bills selections.  But nobody is complaining about that.  Why?  Because Beane & Co have had the most (technically, the only) success this team has had in the new century.  They're good at their jobs & the Pegulas enjoying their purchase has not perceptably negatively affected the team since Beane was brought in. 

There really isn't any actual evidence that they meddle any more into the Sabres than they do into the Bills; they just haven't prior to Adams found the right guy/team to run the Sabres.  So, everytime they're in the picture it is assumed that they're running the nuts & bolts of the show.  Regardless of whether they are or aren't.   

Have they found the right guy with Adams?  Don't know, but hope so, because he's here for 2 more years if he's not the right guy.

(And we have to hope Adams makes the right call on the coach - regardless of whether that's Granato, Gallant, or somebody else.  Because that guy will also get close to 2 seasons - 2 seasons if he's the wrong guy.  And 8 years of at minimum having the wrong guy for the circumstances has grown old.)  

I love the Bills and I have stuck by them and continued to go to games every year of the playoff drought, mostly for the good times with friends.

The results didn't break my heart every week anymore but my love for the team never wavered even when they were the laughingstock of the NFL.

That being said, they rebuilt from the ground up with McDermott and Beane. The two of them have now made the Buffalo Bills into a destination of choice for players around the league and a model franchise in a very short period of time.

Therefore I know it can be done. I watched it happen, saw the team believe in themselves and each other and my love and heartbreak after losses have returned. 

The circumstances with the Sabres have most certainly grown old but I'll be here when that day comes for them as well.

I have to have some faith in Adams to be the right choice or I'll drive myself batty worrying about something I have no control over. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Norcal

[Curt]

11 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't know who is going to be here, but I do understand contract law.  Jack has a contract.  Risto has a contract.  Sam can't sign anywhere else unless the Sabres agree.  Might it be prudent to move some of these guys before they gain free agent status or Jack NMC. Possibly, but if they comeback next season with a more stable front office and a competitive team, do you really think they are going to demand to be traded.  Winning fixes most locker room problems.

*I promise that I fully grasp the contract situations of all 3 players.

Its certainly possible that any of the 3 could stick around long term.  I don’t see it as at all likely though.

That’s me reading the situation.  Adams seems like he wants no part of anyone who doesn’t want to be a Sabre.  Those three guys seem like they don’t want to be Sabres right now.

[Thorny]

19 hours ago, Norcal said:

So you watched a Buffalo Sabres production that featured the owners of the team? Lights, camera, action.

I'm not saying the owners are not consulted, especially when it's $8 million real dollars involved but that was just a fan site video capturing a few moments of the negotiations, not the every day grind behind the scenes. 

Terry and Kim are not sitting at the desk as Adams takes and makes calls weighing in in real time. 

 

19 hours ago, Taro T said:

For those who didn't watch the NFL draft, there were images of the Pegulas in draft room & Kim even announced 1 of the Bills selections.  But nobody is complaining about that.  Why?  Because Beane & Co have had the most (technically, the only) success this team has had in the new century.  They're good at their jobs & the Pegulas enjoying their purchase has not perceptably negatively affected the team since Beane was brought in. 

There really isn't any actual evidence that they meddle any more into the Sabres than they do into the Bills; they just haven't prior to Adams found the right guy/team to run the Sabres.  So, everytime they're in the picture it is assumed that they're running the nuts & bolts of the show.  Regardless of whether they are or aren't.   

Have they found the right guy with Adams?  Don't know, but hope so, because he's here for 2 more years if he's not the right guy.

(And we have to hope Adams makes the right call on the coach - regardless of whether that's Granato, Gallant, or somebody else.  Because that guy will also get close to 2 seasons - 2 seasons if he's the wrong guy.  And 8 years of at minimum having the wrong guy for the circumstances has grown old.)  

Didn't we hear from @Brawndothat Pegula was the one who decided on Jack's and Skinner's deals? I'd say that's pretty "in the room" and "nuts and bolts", especially because apparently Botterill was in opposition and the deals still got done