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Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)


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14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Maybe tryout is the wrong word, but I think the strategy has to be looked out as a trial of some sort, given all the short-term deals.

I can't see any other way to regard it.

If it all works, Adams will likely try to keep it together and if it doesn't he will try to keep the parts he wants and walk away from others.

I wish I could get on board for this but I can't. 

I believe the mentality entering into this year should be that of an organization operating under the belief and confidence they have achieved the accumulation of talent necessary to, with good coaching, achieve the result we state as our goal. 

They should be operating as if they have full confidence in their plan and what is going to happen complete with already envisioning success, in specific roles, for the players they've added. 

I'm not sure you can make the playoffs with the other mindset and I don't know what will happen to this team if we have another failed season. 

Framing things as a trial inherently implies what comes *after* this season is more important than what happens *this* year, and that would be a key philosophical difference in my thinking relative to theirs, so it's not a gap I can bridge mentally. 

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

If Okposo plays, he will be skating w/ Reider & Eakin.  That line is set.

Cozens skated there today because he'll be Okposo's fill in should Kyle be unable to go & ttbomk he hadn't skated w/ that line yet.  Best to at least let him start to get a feel for how they play rather than throw him in cold if circumstances dictate it.

Presuming Cozens working w/ the 2nd PP was not simply because Kyle was getting eased at practice, then he's in the lineup & he'll be with Skinner.  In the offensive end & in the neutral zone, it doesn't matter whether he's W or C, except for the faceoff they're interchangeable.  We don't want Cozens at C in his very 1st game, especially when a defensively challenged Skinner would be 1 of his wingers.

Though my expectation is Mittelstadt will be fine, my major issue w/ his development is they've thrown him to the wolves when he should've been sheltered.  Giving him Jeff and a rook in his 1st ever game is more of the same.  If Skinner & Cozens are responsible in their own end, sure, give Casey a crack on that line.  If not, either leave that line alone or swap Casey in for Cozens at some point & slide Lazar into Ott's old role - W that wins faceoffs.

 

I guess we'll just have to see who Skinner lines up with. We parse it every day but until he's actually *with* good linemates, I'll bitch about it. 

Edited by Thorny
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6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Can't win if you can't score.  This rigid coach has taken one of the best 5 on 5 scorers in the NHL and placed him in a position to fail.  Not smart.  A good coach would use that line I've suggested when the matchups favor the line and to minimize any defensive issues. Also Cozens has shown so far that he is defensively responsible and according to both Taylor and RK, Mitts is substantially improved in that area.  Cozens and probably Mitts are the future of this team and Lazar and Sheahan are placeholders until better players come along.  I think those players are already here.  Sadly RK is very rigid and likely not capable of utilizing them in a way that maximizes their benefit to the team.

Skinner played on the third line in Carolina as well.

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7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Sometimes I think we debate stuff we actually agree on because we read different things into the same words.

I firmly believe that any organization benefits from a manager with reasonable, clearly articulated expectations who practices what he preaches and is easy to respect and follow.

Totally fair. 

The amount of baggage that generally accompanies the term is just something I reject outright. The way you lay it out makes complete sense but we all know the connotations of "culture" on a hockey message board are vast and many. 

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1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

We also have a long-term problem.  Hall and Staal, two keys pieces in our top 6, are probably only here for this season.  If we don't groom guys like Cozens, Mitts, and R2 for those roles now, they won't be ready next year when we need them for a bigger role.  That is why Cozens, Mitts or R2 need to be Skinner's center now.  We need to them to help make Skinner productive this season and to find out if any will be ready for a bigger role next season.  

There is a very substantial chance that Mitts will never be a decent NHL player, and that R2 is far from being ready for the NHL at this point.

This isn't a "sacrifice the season and sink or swim with the untested rookies" season.  It's a "we need to make the GD playoffs already" season.

I'm 100% confident that RK will play Mitts, R2 and each other rookie once he's shown he can handle it.

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Culture is BS.  The Patriots have a winning culture and it didn't do them much good this season without a decent QB and guys who can catch the football.  What happened to the winning culture in Edm and Det when the great players got old or left town?

The Bills could have easily gone the other way.  They traded away the pick used to get Pat Mahomes, and if Allen hadn't developed into a star, we'd probably be worried about the team's future.  Instead, McBeane have created a winning culture that seems to have blossomed as their QB did.  They however did a great job fixing the O line and getting Allen players to throw the ball to.  

Fixing an NFL team (despite the experiences in Cleve and Buff) is easier then in the NHL.  No guaranteed contracts and drafting more mature players.  There is a huge difference in physical and mental maturity in drafting kids 21-23 (NFL) vs drafting kids who are 18-20 (NHL).   The Bills seems to have 4-5 players in their lineup from each of the last 4 drafts.  In the NHL if you eventually get 3 players from a draft your doing amazingly well.

Bottom line get talent and win and the winning culture will follow.  

 

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Just now, Thorny said:

I guess we'll just have to see who Skinner lines up with. We parse it every day but until he's actually *with* good linemates, I'll bitch about it. 

Is it with good linemates, or linemates he's good with?

We got Hall, so RK split the big tandem (their bike!) of Eichel-Reino to go Hall-Eichel. Skinner started out with Staal (savvy vet who's played well with all manner of players/ages/types) and Reino (has shown the ability to mold/adapt to everyone he's played with). And Skinner lost that. That's disappointing, but it's also on Skinner.

RK is about those pairs: Hall-Eichel, Staal-Reinhart, Eakins-Okposo. In the meantime, Skinner's on the spare-parts line until he meshes with a partner. History last year shows that RK is really stubborn (Skinner came back while Olofsson was out but remained on line 2). But there's nothing to say that Skinner doesn't jump back up with Staal-Reinhart and soon. This season-opening series is essentially the preseason.

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2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Yes.  What’s the point of even having him on the roster if on the 4th line.  I can’t imagine this is sitting well with him, and I don’t want a pouting player in the locker room 

I often wonder how much thought they gave to the Krueger hire wrt Skinner being here already with that big deal, whether or not they talked about how the coach might feel about him. 

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2 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Is it with good linemates, or linemates he's good with?

We got Hall, so RK split the big tandem (their bike!) of Eichel-Reino to go Hall-Eichel. Skinner started out with Staal (savvy vet who's played well with all manner of players/ages/types) and Reino (has shown the ability to mold/adapt to everyone he's played with). And Skinner lost that. That's disappointing, but it's also on Skinner.

RK is about those pairs: Hall-Eichel, Staal-Reinhart, Eakins-Okposo. In the meantime, Skinner's on the spare-parts line until he meshes with a partner. History last year shows that RK is really stubborn (Skinner came back while Olofsson was out but remained on line 2). But there's nothing to say that Skinner doesn't jump back up with Staal-Reinhart and soon. This season-opening series is essentially the preseason.

I'd be good with good-for-him-line mates. 

No reason that shouldn't be the case on G1. They had all offseason. 

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11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Can't win if you can't score.  This rigid coach has taken one of the best 5 on 5 scorers in the NHL and placed him in a position to fail.  Not smart.  A good coach would use that line I've suggested when the matchups favor the line and to minimize any defensive issues. Also Cozens has shown so far that he is defensively responsible and according to both Taylor and RK, Mitts is substantially improved in that area.  Cozens and probably Mitts are the future of this team and Lazar and Sheahan are placeholders until better players come along.  I think those players are already here.  Sadly RK is very rigid and likely not capable of utilizing them in a way that maximizes their benefit to the team.

Cozens hasn't played a single shift in the NHL, yet you're anointing him "defensively responsible"?   

Sheahan and Lazar are better players than Mitts and Cozens at this point in time.   They are more complete, more experienced, stronger players.    Are they more offensively talented?  No.    Again, hockey is much more than just razzle dazzle offense.    

I also do not like how they're using Skinner.    I'd swap him and Thompson in a heartbeat.    Skinner pots 40 alongside Eichel, you pay him for that production, then never put him back in that same position... makes zero sense, something I'll never understand.    Skinner's role is to score, clean up around the net, be a pest on the forecheck... is he defensively responsible?  No, but that's not what you're paying him for. 

Mitts, I'm afraid, simply doesn't have the speed or quickness to succeed in today's NHL... which, from what I've seen (which isn't much haha), will forever handcuff him in both ends of the ice.  

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21 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I often wonder how much thought they gave to the Krueger hire wrt Skinner being here already with that big deal, whether or not they talked about how the coach might feel about him. 

I know there has to be some level of buy in from the player in terms of two way play, but you’re always going to have some skill guys who aren’t great defensively.  RK needs to figure it out. A $9 mil player in the bottom six in unacceptable...especially since you already are saddled with a $6 mil player also in the bottom six. 

Edited by LabattBlue
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3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Culture is BS.  The Patriots have a winning culture and it didn't do them much good this season without a decent QB and guys who can catch the football.  What happened to the winning culture in Edm and Det when the great players got old or left town?

The Bills could have easily gone the other way.  They traded away the pick used to get Pat Mahomes, and if Allen hadn't developed into a star, we'd probably be worried about the team's future.  Instead, McBeane have created a winning culture that seems to have blossomed as their QB did.  They however did a great job fixing the O line and getting Allen players to throw the ball to.  

Fixing an NFL team (despite the experiences in Cleve and Buff) is easier then in the NHL.  No guaranteed contracts and drafting more mature players.  There is a huge difference in physical and mental maturity in drafting kids 21-23 (NFL) vs drafting kids who are 18-20 (NHL).   The Bills seems to have 4-5 players in their lineup from each of the last 4 drafts.  In the NHL if you eventually get 3 players from a draft your doing amazingly well.

Bottom line get talent and win and the winning culture will follow.  

 

Agree. Winning begets culture, not the other way around. 

Appealing to these players' competitive nature is about the only thing that has a long-term sustainable pull to rival that of $ (even then, it's secondary)

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Just now, LabattBlue said:

I know there has to be some level of buy in from the player in terms of two way play, but you’re always going have some skill guys who aren’t great defensively.  RK needs to figure it out. A $9 mil player in the bottom six in unacceptable. 

I think it was Brett Hull?  who told his coach "Do you want me to score 50 goals, or do you want me to back check?"

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2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I know there has to be some level of buy in from the player in terms of two way play, but you’re always going have some skill guys who aren’t great defensively.  RK needs to figure it out. A $9 mil player in the bottom six in unacceptable. 

I take your meaning but I don't care what the number label of his line is as long as it's a well-constructed line that benefits the team.

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40 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

How can we find out if someone is ready for the NHL if we don't play them in the NHL?  After-all I'm not asking Mitts or Cozens to step in and play 2nd line minutes.  Since RK has sent Skinner to 4th purgatory, this is actually the perfect opportunity to create a skill line around him give them 10-12 minutes a night and see what they can do.  Low risk, hi reward.  If they aren't ready, we can always bring in the marginal vets.  Instead RK wants marginal vets in the lineup that we know won't produce.  How does that make sense?

Coaches watch them day in day out.  I guess they thought he didn’t look ready enough.  I’m sure coaches have certain things they look for to determine this.

I have seen no definitive  evidence that Krueger wont put Cozens, for example, on a line with Skinner.  I’m good with a rugged vet in the other spot. In fact I think it may be necessary.  I would be terrified to ice a Skinner-Mitts-Cozens line.

Im not so down on the marginal vets as you.  If they can play decent defense and put up 20+ points, that’s ok for the bottom couple guys in the lineup.

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9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I take your meaning but I don't care what the number label of his line is as long as it's a well-constructed line that benefits the team.

...but you also have to put players in position to succeed, and putting a very good goal scorer with scrub 4th liners is not utilizing Skinner correctly. 

Edited by LabattBlue
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4 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Let me remind everyone that

 

Skinner - Johansson - Sobotka

 

was a very productive second line last year, until Sobotka got injured. Good enough to get us to #1 in the standings for a bit.

That line stopped being productive when October ended, not when Sobotka's season ended a week or so later.

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