Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[Curt]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Didn't realize or simply forgot he had a NMC, Makes the contract even stupider. 

It’s not a good contract.  If he gets back on track and plays like a top-6 guy, it can be “just” a not good contract, instead of becoming a crippling one.

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

 How soon before fans turn on him this season? 

Skinner or Krueger?

Edited January 11, 2021 by LabattBlue

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Skinner or Krueger?

Skinner

[GASabresIUFAN]

People will turn on Krueger first.  If this team doesn't get off to a good start and the new enhanced offense doesn't click, how RK treated Skinner will be a lightning rod for criticism.  He'll deserve it.

That said, if the team gets off to a good start no one will care where Skinner plays.

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

People will turn on Krueger first.  If this team doesn't get off to a good start and the new enhanced offense doesn't click, how RK treated Skinner will be a lightning rod for criticism.  He'll deserve it.

That said, if the team gets off to a good start no one will care where Skinner plays.

How has he mistreated Skinner?

He played him the first half of training camp with two damn good hockey players.

He moved him to try somebody else when the unit didn’t click the way he wanted it to.

There seems to be an unspoken issue with Skinner not following the “principles” of the system.

Are you advocating for Ralph to ignore Skinner’s play and essentially let him do what he wants with who he wants?

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

Krueger was on record when camp opened this year saying Miller was still longing for Vegas or something to that effect and that Miller's bought in this year.  To me, that's saying he had attitude issues.

But, really not sure how you say he wasn't brought in to be a spare unless you believe that Botterill was going to move somebody to create a space for him & fix the C depth.   (Which is a fair assumption, but as we all saw, EXTREMELY misguided.  😉 )  They already had a top 6 better than him when he was brought in though Bogosian was likely going to miss some time in October.  Who was he brought in to be ahead of?

And Jokiharju definitely hurt Miller's stock, but even w/out him; if everybody's healthy he's 7. And, you seem to be taking contradictory views as you say "really he's never been more than a bottom pairing guy" but also say "he was ... brought in as ... a top 6 maybe even top 4."  Those positions don't mesh especially w/ 6 guys who'd all been top 4's already here ahead of him.  

I'm not taking a contradictory view but perhaps I wasn't clear. I think JBot saw him as a second pairing D man but I am saying that was an over valuation and he was never better than a 3rd pairing and never will be. 

I also think JBot was thinking it was time to move Risto, but under Kreuger Risto started to play better again and then injuries hit and maybe he couldn't get what he wanted and had to tread cautiously after giving away ROR but ultimately Jokiharju messed up the plan and he had too many D men and no trade partners. 

I still think the attitude idea is a reach though. I mean seriously, would anyone be excited about being traded to the Sabres last year? Vegas had a good thing going from the fairytale outset and I'm sure that built team comradery so you can't blame him, but I think Kreuger is just playing diplomacy/politics with the media. Wouldn't put any stock in it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

How has he mistreated Skinner?

He played him the first half of training camp with two damn good hockey players.

He moved him to try somebody else when the unit didn’t click the way he wanted it to.

There seems to be an unspoken issue with Skinner not following the “principles” of the system.

Are you advocating for Ralph to ignore Skinner’s play and essentially let him do what he wants with who he wants?

It's more than that.  Skinner was an effective player when RK got here and last year with RK as coach he suffered his worst season when the coach refused until late in the year to adjust the lineup to try to get Skinner going.  RK was more interest in keeping the Jack/Sam "pair" together then experimenting to try to maximize his assets.  Now that same coach is demoting him to play with has beens and AAAA players.  He says Skinner isn't following his principals.  Everyone knows that Skinner isn't the greatest two way player, but he is one of the best 5 on 5 goal scorers in the NHL.  However, instead of finding away to utilize what Skinner does well he sends him to purgatory and hopes no one notices.   

Even renowned system man and disciplinarian Barry Trotz adjusted his system to accommodate the up tempo talent he had in Wash to win a Cup. He meet the players half way.  They played a better defensive structure overall but he also opened up to a more offensive mentality.  He even got Ovie to buy in, but he also didn't ask him to play on the 4th line.   Yes Skinner needs to buy in and do a better job playing a 200 foot game.  However, It's also up to the coach to find away to maximize his players.  The best coaches have systems but adjust to the talent they have.  

If this team falls to the bottom of the standings again, RK will be gone and Skinner will get another new coach.

[PerreaultForever]

37 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

People will turn on Krueger first.  If this team doesn't get off to a good start and the new enhanced offense doesn't click, how RK treated Skinner will be a lightning rod for criticism.  He'll deserve it.

That said, if the team gets off to a good start no one will care where Skinner plays.

Would anyone who has been watching this team for the last decade or more really blame Krueger though? You'd have to be pretty out of it to think all this team needs is a better coach. It's actually kind of refreshing to think we might be in a position where players aren't fully in charge and can't be benched due to a total lack of better talent. You can't win ever unless you have a team where the coach can reward/punish good/bad play. Krueger might take the fall as coaches do, but I think he's only in trouble if Jack turns on him. 

[I-90 W]

18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It's more than that.  Skinner was an effective player when RK got here and last year with RK as coach he suffered his worst season when the coach refused until late in the year to adjust the lineup to try to get Skinner going.  RK was more interest in keeping the Jack/Sam "pair" together then experimenting to try to maximize his assets.  Now that same coach is demoting him to play with has beens and AAAA players.  He says Skinner isn't following his principals.  Everyone knows that Skinner isn't the greatest two way player, but he is one of the best 5 on 5 goal scorers in the NHL.  However, instead of finding away to utilize what Skinner does well he sends him to purgatory and hopes no one notices.   

Even renowned system man and disciplinarian Barry Trotz adjusted his system to accommodate the up tempo talent he had in Wash to win a Cup. He meet the players half way.  They played a better defensive structure overall but he also opened up to a more offensive mentality.  He even got Ovie to buy in, but he also didn't ask him to play on the 4th line.   Yes Skinner needs to buy in and do a better job playing a 200 foot game.  However, It's also up to the coach to find away to maximize his players.  The best coaches have systems but adjust to the talent they have.  

If this team falls to the bottom of the standings again, RK will be gone and Skinner will get another new coach.

With RK playing such a major role in signing Hall, and just as important a role in potentially extending him, that alone gives RK major value in the eyes of ownership IMO.

[GASabresIUFAN]

24 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Would anyone who has been watching this team for the last decade or more really blame Krueger though? You'd have to be pretty out of it to think all this team needs is a better coach. It's actually kind of refreshing to think we might be in a position where players aren't fully in charge and can't be benched due to a total lack of better talent. You can't win ever unless you have a team where the coach can reward/punish good/bad play. Krueger might take the fall as coaches do, but I think he's only in trouble if Jack turns on him. 

I'll go on record and say I don't think RK is a good NHL coach.  Hopefully he and the Sabres will prove me wrong.  His "pairs" in the forward group makes no sense to me.  Yes I like line continuity and hope, like any fan or coach, for line chemistry.  So build lines not pairs.  

His pairs right now are Jack/Taylor, Staal/Reinhart and for some crazy reason Eakin/KO.  Honestly this line creation method screams of a coach being inflexible.  He has spent camp focused finding 3rds for his pairs.  On paper this makes sense, but his focus on pairing Eakin with KO is creating a terrible bottom six.  Eakin is the only established center that could bring secondary scoring in the bottom 6.  Pairing him with checking forward KO reduces the likelihood to near zero.  Obviously be creating that pair, RK intends Eakin and KO to be the center piece of his shutdown line.  Great notion, except that condemns one of your best 5 on 5 goal scorers to playing on a line centered by AAAA Lazar or checking line center Sheahan and playing only 10 minutes a night or less 5 on 5.  Does that make any sense at all?  Sheahan or Lazar are also just as likely to be effective in a shutdown role, freeing Eakin to center a scoring line.  IMHO coaches should run with hot lines while their working and be willing to try something else when they are not.  

8 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

With RK playing such a major role in signing Hall, and just as important a role in potentially extending him, that alone gives RK major value in the eyes of ownership IMO.

Maybe, unless we finish at the bottom of the standings again.  Then Hall will be traded at the deadline and RK will be gone.

Edited January 11, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[GASabresIUFAN]

One other thought on RK's statement that Skinner isn't playing the system.  That should have been kept in house.  He basically threw Skinner under the bus.  Nice!

He should have said we have 3 top 6 quality LWs and Hall and Olofsson have shown good chemistry with Jack and Eric so that's the direction we are going to start the year.  However if that camp chemistry doesn't carry over into the season we will reevaluate.  This way Skinner doesn't look like a chump and RK hasn't aired the dirty laundry in public.  He can still send the same message to Skinner in house and say if you want to get out of my dog house work on back checking and helping the D.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'll go on record and say I don't think RK is a good NHL coach.  Hopefully he and the Sabres will prove me wrong.  His "pairs" in the forward group makes no sense to me.  Yes I like line continuity and hope, like any fan or coach, for line chemistry.  So build lines not pairs.  

His pairs right now are Jack/Taylor, Staal/Reinhart and for some crazy reason Eakin/KO.  Honestly this line creation method screams of a coach being inflexible.  He has spent camp focused finding 3rds for his pairs.  On paper this makes sense, but his focus on pairing Eakin with KO is creating a terrible bottom six.  Eakin is the only established center that could bring secondary scoring in the bottom 6.  Pairing him with checking forward KO reduces the likelihood to near zero.  Obviously be creating that pair, RK intends Eakin and KO to be the center piece of his shutdown line.  Great notion, except that condemns one of your best 5 on 5 goal scorers to playing on a line centered by AAAA Lazar or checking line center Sheahan and playing only 10 minutes a night or less 5 on 5.  Does that make any sense at all?  Sheahan or Lazar are also just as likely to be effective in a shutdown role, freeing Eakin to center a scoring line.  IMHO coaches should run with hot lines while their working and be willing to try something else when they are not.  

Maybe, unless we finish at the bottom of the standings again.  Then Hall will be traded at the deadline and RK will be gone.

He does focus on pairs, but what he looks for is chemistry. I'm going to wait until I see the team play this year before evaluating his lines.

I'm curious though, if you don't like Ralph, which Sabres coach(es) have you liked over the last decade or so?  Which ones were good in your opinion?

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'll go on record and say I don't think RK is a good NHL coach.  Hopefully he and the Sabres will prove me wrong.  His "pairs" in the forward group makes no sense to me.  Yes I like line continuity and hope, like any fan or coach, for line chemistry.  So build lines not pairs.  

His pairs right now are Jack/Taylor, Staal/Reinhart and for some crazy reason Eakin/KO.  Honestly this line creation method screams of a coach being inflexible.  He has spent camp focused finding 3rds for his pairs.  On paper this makes sense, but his focus on pairing Eakin with KO is creating a terrible bottom six.  Eakin is the only established center that could bring secondary scoring in the bottom 6.  Pairing him with checking forward KO reduces the likelihood to near zero.  Obviously be creating that pair, RK intends Eakin and KO to be the center piece of his shutdown line.  Great notion, except that condemns one of your best 5 on 5 goal scorers to playing on a line centered by AAAA Lazar or checking line center Sheahan and playing only 10 minutes a night or less 5 on 5.  Does that make any sense at all?  Sheahan or Lazar are also just as likely to be effective in a shutdown role, freeing Eakin to center a scoring line.  IMHO coaches should run with hot lines while their working and be willing to try something else when they are not.  

Maybe, unless we finish at the bottom of the standings again.  Then Hall will be traded at the deadline and RK will be gone.

 

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

One other thought on RK's statement that Skinner isn't playing the system.  That should have been kept in house.  He basically threw Skinner under the bus.  Nice!

He should have said we have 3 top 6 quality LWs and Hall and Olofsson have shown good chemistry with Jack and Eric so that's the direction we are going to start the year.  However if that camp chemistry doesn't carry over into the season we will reevaluate.  This way Skinner doesn't look like a chump and RK hasn't aired the dirty laundry in public.  He can still send the same message to Skinner in house and say if you want to get out of my dog house work on back checking and helping the D.  

These are fair criticisms on RK.  The strategy is apparent (maybe*), but the effectiveness is still TBD. 

My concerns lie within RKs perceived "stubbornness." His unwillingness to bend, or make changes to his strategy, especially in a shortened season, could handcuff progress and productivity of players (like Skinner).  I think most fans believe he should have put Skinner back on the 1st line early last season.  

*The end game for management with Skinner this season might be to make him unhappy enough with his role to to agree to go to Seattle.  This way they can get away from that contract.  Not sure if JBots being there will help or hurt this cause...

[#freejame]

11 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Skinner or Krueger?

I am fairly positive there is a large contingent that never liked Skinner and is already long sour on Krueger. You can certainly count me in that boat. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

He does focus on pairs, but what he looks for is chemistry. I'm going to wait until I see the team play this year before evaluating his lines.

I'm curious though, if you don't like Ralph, which Sabres coach(es) have you liked over the last decade or so?  Which ones were good in your opinion?

Lindy Ruff was the last good coach this team had and sadly his stale message and the lack of talent got him in the end.  

I was hopeful on RK.  However last season his lack of flexibility, his moving Montour to the wrong side and the terrible PK all gave me pause.  Now his approach to the bottom six has added to my negative feeling.  

Still it’s a new season.  There is always hope.

 

[I-90 W]

RK is getting rolled on social media about this whole Skinner on the 4th line thing. It seems as if people are convinced it is set in stone or something.

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

RK is getting rolled on social media about this whole Skinner on the 4th line thing. It seems as if people are convinced it is set in stone or something.

As I said earlier RK will take the heat for this.  

Some of this mess also lies with KA.  We lacked depth at RW and Center, not LW.  He had Skinner, VO and Girgensons returning.  Our only proven RWs were Reinhart and 4th line KO.  He did address center with Staal and Eakin but got LW Hall and never really addressed RW at all.  Un-surprisingly we now have 3 top 6 LWs for two jobs and an unproven kid as Jack’s RW.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[I-90 W]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Like I said earlier RK will take the heat for this.  

Some of this mess also lies with KA.  We lacked depth at RW and Center, not LW.  He had Skinner, VO and Girgensons returning.  Our only proven RWs were Reinhart and 4th line KO.  He did address center with Staal and Eakin but got LW Hall and never really addressed RW at all.  Un-surprisingly we now have 3 top 6 LWs for two jobs and an unproven kid as Jack’s RW.  

Yeah but he finally got a legit (albeit short term stop gap) 2C and landed Hall. Can’t be perfect but he’s done a great job IMO so far. Imagine if he didn’t get Staal? We’d probably be forcing Cozens into it. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by I-90 W

[tom webster]

6 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'll go on record and say I don't think RK is a good NHL coach.  Hopefully he and the Sabres will prove me wrong.  His "pairs" in the forward group makes no sense to me.  Yes I like line continuity and hope, like any fan or coach, for line chemistry.  So build lines not pairs.  

His pairs right now are Jack/Taylor, Staal/Reinhart and for some crazy reason Eakin/KO.  Honestly this line creation method screams of a coach being inflexible.  He has spent camp focused finding 3rds for his pairs.  On paper this makes sense, but his focus on pairing Eakin with KO is creating a terrible bottom six.  Eakin is the only established center that could bring secondary scoring in the bottom 6.  Pairing him with checking forward KO reduces the likelihood to near zero.  Obviously be creating that pair, RK intends Eakin and KO to be the center piece of his shutdown line.  Great notion, except that condemns one of your best 5 on 5 goal scorers to playing on a line centered by AAAA Lazar or checking line center Sheahan and playing only 10 minutes a night or less 5 on 5.  Does that make any sense at all?  Sheahan or Lazar are also just as likely to be effective in a shutdown role, freeing Eakin to center a scoring line.  IMHO coaches should run with hot lines while their working and be willing to try something else when they are not.  

Maybe, unless we finish at the bottom of the standings again.  Then Hall will be traded at the deadline and RK will be gone.

It’s funny, you want to believe the “experts” who you think still believe in Casey, but you don’t want to believe the same “experts” when they rate RK one of the top coaches in the game.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, I-90 W said:

Yeah but he finally got a legit (albeit short term stop gap) 2C and landed Hall. Can’t be perfect but he’s done a great job IMO so far. Imagine if he didn’t get Staal? We’d probably be forcing Cozens into it. 

I’m not saying I don’t like getting Hall and Staal, nor am I saying KA stinks.  In fact I think he has done a good job overall.  However, he didn’t address RW or goaltending and all his new forwards are coming off down years, except Staal who is 37, which he hopes are not long term trends.  I’m confident Hall will rebound playing with Jack.  Not so much on Rieder and Eakin.

[SwampD]

When and where did Krueger talk about Skinner not playing the system?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, tom webster said:

It’s funny, you want to believe the “experts” who you think still believe in Casey, but you don’t want to believe the same “experts” when they rate RK one of the top coaches in the game.

Apples and oranges.  Casey is a kid and developing prospect.  

Show me the expert quote that says RK is a proven great NHL coach?  He failed in Edm and wasn’t given another shot at the NHL for years.  His first year here was marked by 5 significant losing streaks, a terrible PK and poor player usage.  

[I-90 W]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m not saying I don’t like getting Hall and Staal, nor am I saying KA stinks.  In fact I think he has done a good job overall.  However, he didn’t address RW or goaltending and all his new forwards are coming off down years, except Staal who is 37, which he hopes are not long term trends.  I’m confident Hall will rebound playing with Jack.  Not so much on Rieder and Eakin.

I’m not going to knock him over the right side but agree with you about the goaltending for sure.

Edited January 11, 2021 by I-90 W

[freester]

18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

As I said earlier RK will take the heat for this.  

Some of this mess also lies with KA.  We lacked depth at RW and Center, not LW.  He had Skinner, VO and Girgensons returning.  Our only proven RWs were Reinhart and 4th line KO.  He did address center with Staal and Eakin but got LW Hall and never really addressed RW at all.  Un-surprisingly we now have 3 top 6 LWs for two jobs and an unproven kid as Jack’s RW.  

I’m optimistic on Tage. He will be a revelation at RW.  The absence of competent goaltending and the imbalance of right vs left defense is a problem that should have been addressed. RK didn’t like Skinner last year when we only had 2 top LW so that blame probably falls on Botteril. 

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It's more than that.  Skinner was an effective player when RK got here and last year with RK as coach he suffered his worst season when the coach refused until late in the year to adjust the lineup to try to get Skinner going.  RK was more interest in keeping the Jack/Sam "pair" together then experimenting to try to maximize his assets.  Now that same coach is demoting him to play with has beens and AAAA players.  He says Skinner isn't following his principals.  Everyone knows that Skinner isn't the greatest two way player, but he is one of the best 5 on 5 goal scorers in the NHL.  However, instead of finding away to utilize what Skinner does well he sends him to purgatory and hopes no one notices.   

Even renowned system man and disciplinarian Barry Trotz adjusted his system to accommodate the up tempo talent he had in Wash to win a Cup. He meet the players half way.  They played a better defensive structure overall but he also opened up to a more offensive mentality.  He even got Ovie to buy in, but he also didn't ask him to play on the 4th line.   Yes Skinner needs to buy in and do a better job playing a 200 foot game.  However, It's also up to the coach to find away to maximize his players.  The best coaches have systems but adjust to the talent they have.  

If this team falls to the bottom of the standings again, RK will be gone and Skinner will get another new coach.

You answered your own question about the player/coach relationship and the need for flexibility. In the Washington example Ovie bought into the structure that Trotz demanded. In fact that was his priority when he took over the job. Ovie didn't reluctantly conform to the coach's more disciplined precepts----he embraced them. Make no mistake that Ovie is an offensive juggernaut more than a defensive demon but to his credit it was evident that he was sincerely putting in the effort to be a more responsible two-way player. That is not the case with Skinner.

What I find disturbing is Krueger's tighter philosophy of play is well known to all the players. It's not something new. He was emphasizing it the moment he took over. It seems that everyone but Skinner is trying to abide by it. Jack is our best player and most prominent leader on our team. Why is it that he bought in and Skinner seems to continue to meander in his stubborn world? 

Skinner is Skinner and will never be a tenacious two way player. Even the erudite coach knows that and accepts it. But when the player plays as a solo  act separate from the unit and shows little willingness to adjust his game then his demotion should not be surprising.  

You and I both agree that we want to see Skinner on the second line. Where we diverge is that I believe that the player has to earn that second line role. He is acting as if he is entitled to it. That's why he is where he is.