The "Hocka" AKA "The Reverse Hurricane" — celebrating victory BEFORE the game?

[steveoath]

@dudacek rugby at all levels is awesome! I've played at uni, coached under 11s for almost 20 years and watch my local amateur team occasionally. I see it as the hockey of ball sports. There are no hiding places. Being raked in a ruck is not joke though!

[That Aud Smell]

@PASabreFan -  I really enjoy this thought experiment. Thanks for bringing it to us.

[Eleven]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yup. and that would be why it would be impossible to try to use it. We'd have to back it up immediately. Can you imagine what happens if we did that and then somebody like Marchand scored the opening goal and we lost the game? We'd be  ridiculed league wide and the joke meme of the sportsworld. 

By the way, I think they lost this year. It was a big scandal down under.

 

They didn't just lose.  They lost to Argentina.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

11 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Seriously folks!

That period between the end of the anthems and the drop of the puck is just brutal. Guys milling around. Loud music being blared. The ref looking for his whistle/a puck/loose change on the ice.

Let's spice it up.

And maybe solve the notorious slow starts that somehow plague successive generations of Sabres. Make a group of mercenary out of towners into true Buffalo soldiers. Honor the brave Maorians.

It would be a tough sell for a conservative sport. I'm hoping what Carolina has done started the process of removing hockey sticks from butts.

Also — if NS is on board, I see no stopping it.

For what it's worth, I never thought you mocked this grand tradition from the land down under ... mostly New Zealand and surrounding islands.  

I am completley on board with doing something different and exciting just prior to puck drop.

[Pimlach]

I’ve never seen a Haka before. Interesting stuff.  First thought is I like it and will research it more.  Fascinating.  
 

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

When in doubt let's fire up some good old cultural appropriation. You want to take a Maori cultural thing, that is practiced by Maoris and people the Maoris invite to participate, move it to the US and Canada, do it here in a context that has no meaning, without any Maoris participating and without asking them if it's ok. Do I have that about right? No part of that feels at least icky to you?

Thank you. That's good food for thought. Would it shock you to find out I didn't give a lot of thought to an idea that I know will never come to pass? I think my assumption was that since it's being done before rugby, soccer and basketball games at the very least, those issues you mention had been resolved. Probably not a good assumption.

Are you OK with the "appropriation" of this tradition in any setting? What about the school boys honoring a retiring teacher?

[dudacek]

The big "hockey" debate over here the past week was Brayden Holtby's new mask: A First Nations' totem painted by a Swedish artist. He apologized and is not going to wear it due to Twitter calls of cultural appropriation.

The debate then extended to the Canucks whale logo. Ownership released a statement that they have talked to local bands and the logo is fine for now. A group of chiefs released a statement that the Canucks are good guys.

Some random First Nations artists said it couldn't be cultural appropriation because it didn't really follow important cultural principles, and, quite frankly, wasn't that good.

I find the debate around cultural "ownership" of expression and practices fascinating and enriching in principle, and uncomfortably divisive in practice. 'Redskins" is obviously wrong; "Blackhawks" much more nuanced. Plenty of non-Maori All-blacks participate in the Haka. Plenty of First Nations people proudly wear Canuck colours. People are sensitive to different things and cultural groups represent a wide spectrums of views.

I love First Nations art; I have it in my house and at some level consider it part of my heritage — not to the same extent as Indigenous people of course, but it is representative of where I am from. Do I have right to be Sabres fan? I've never been to Western New York, survived a blizzard, or sampled authentic wings.

On topic: the idea of a pre-game statement with the force of the Haka is an excellent one.

Edited December 18, 2020 by dudacek

[Eleven]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The big "hockey" debate over here the past week was Brayden Holtby's new mask: A First Nations' totem painted by a Swedish artist. He apologized and is not going to wear it due to Twitter calls of cultural appropriation.

It gets to a special level of stupid sometimes.

Without cultural appropriation, we never would have had Seiji Ozawa conducting a Beethoven symphony in Boston, would we?

That said, a haka before a hockey game in NA isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen.  The closest the Sabres came to a "pre-game statement" was entering the rink to "Street Fighting Man," and they did pretty well with that.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Eleven

[PASabreFan]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

On topic: the idea of a pre-game statement with the force of the Haka is an excellent one.

Yes and thank you.

But what?

Maybe the horn blows, the red light flashes behind the opposing goalie, the goal song is played, the starting five skate past the bench and bump gloves, then report to center, up 1-0 before the puck drop. It's like — goddamit we're going to score tonight; get used to it, Leafs.

Maybe they assemble around the goalie and all skate to their spots, letting the starting center go last to some kind of great fanfare. I'm seeing a graphic superimposed on the ice over the dot — that rotating "spotlighted" player circle you see on some broadcasts.

There are a million billion things you could do. It's weird that, as far as I know, no NHL team does anything special in the time between the anthems and puck drop.

Edited December 18, 2020 by PASabreFan

[SwampD]

I’d be fine if they just cut out the armed forces recruitment portion of the pregame that the singing of the national anthems has become. Talk about an energy vacuum in the opening ceremonies.

Introduce the starting 5, then get set for puck drop. Done.

Thats all I need.

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

When in doubt let's fire up some good old cultural appropriation. You want to take a Maori cultural thing, that is practiced by Maoris and people the Maoris invite to participate, move it to the US and Canada, do it here in a context that has no meaning, without any Maoris participating and without asking them if it's ok. Do I have that about right? No part of that feels at least icky to you?

C'mon, man. Get in the spirit of the thing.

46 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I find the debate around cultural "ownership" of expression and practices fascinating and enriching in principle, and uncomfortably divisive in practice. 'Redskins" is obviously wrong; "Blackhawks" much more nuanced. Plenty of non-Maori All-blacks participate in the Haka. Plenty of First Nations people proudly wear Canuck colours. People are sensitive to different things and cultural groups represent a wide spectrums of views.

Great post. To @Eleven's point below about the special level of stupid, there was some dust-up at Oberlin College about the food service's offering of banh mi sandwiches - that the sandwiches weren't really banh mi and that the menu item was therefore unjustly appropriative. I don't recall the nuance of the debate. I mostly just recall reflecting on the fact the banh mi sandwich itself is a product of cultures mingling.

40 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Without cultural appropriation, we never would have had Seiji Ozawa conducting a Beethoven symphony in Boston, would we?

Cultural appropriation as a no-no generally contemplates a marginalized or disadvantaged culture getting raided, if you will (e.g., Elvis getting rich doing songs originally written and performed by Black Americans). So I don't think that example above really plays.

23 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Maybe the horn blows, the red light flashes behind the opposing goalie, the goal song is played, the starting five skate past the bench and bump gloves, then report to center, up 1-0 before the puck drop. It's like — goddamit we're going to score tonight; get used to it, Leafs.

Maybe they assemble around the goalie and all skate to their spots, letting the starting center go last to some kind of great fanfare. I'm seeing a graphic superimposed on the ice over the dot — that rotating "spotlighted" player circle you see on some broadcasts.

There are a million billion things you could do. It's weird that, as far as I know, no NHL team does anything special in the time between the anthems and puck drop.

Hell yes - more of this!

[Eleven]

3 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I’d be fine if they just cut out the armed forces recruitment portion of the pregame that the singing of the national anthems has become. Talk about an energy vacuum in the opening ceremonies.

Introduce the starting 5, then get set for puck drop. Done.

Thats all I need.

Great, we went from Ullmark to no goalie at all.

[dudacek]

How about Risto skates to centre ice with a stuffed teddy in a Bruins logo and ritually decapitates it with a skate blade?

[SwampD]

4 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Great, we went from Ullmark to no goalie at all.

Sorry. Starting 6.

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I’d be fine if they just cut out the armed forces recruitment portion of the pregame that the singing of the national anthems has become. Talk about an energy vacuum in the opening ceremonies.

Introduce the starting 5, then get set for puck drop. Done.

Thats all I need.

What ?   When did this happen?  Explain please. 

[rakish]

The Sabres should steal Nascar's flyover to start the game

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, rakish said:

The Sabres should steal Nascar's flyover to start the game

They already have.  Been doing 'em for years.

What, you've missed the post anthem flyovers?  Must be it doesn't translate well on the tube. 😉

[SwampD]

14 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

What ?   When did this happen?  Explain please. 

Do I really need to?

In the 90s, when you went to a game, the announcer would say, “Please stand and remove your hats for the singing of our national anthem.” That’s it. It would be one guy holding the flag or even just a spotlight on the flag hanging in the arena.

Then 9/11 happened.

Now, they say something like, “Please stand and remove your hats to honor the brave men and women who serve in our armed forces.” They have a color guard with members of all the branches holding flags and then bring out a wounded veteran to the end of the carpet. Something they pay the NHL for the right to do.

[PASabreFan]

31 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Do I really need to?

In the 90s, when you went to a game, the announcer would say, “Please stand and remove your hats for the singing of our national anthem.” That’s it. It would be one guy holding the flag or even just a spotlight on the flag hanging in the arena.

Then 9/11 happened.

Now, they say something like, “Please stand and remove your hats to honor the brave men and women who serve in our armed forces.” They have a color guard with members of all the branches holding flags and then bring out a wounded veteran to the end of the carpet. Something they pay the NHL for the right to do.

You forgot the part where the veteran slips on the carpet. Call 888 88 88.

What if the players mimed scoring a goal using an imaginary net at the dot? They could even let the goalie score some night.

It's not wilder than what the Hurricanes do. I can't see the league saying you can't do it.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

Do I really need to?

In the 90s, when you went to a game, the announcer would say, “Please stand and remove your hats for the singing of our national anthem.” That’s it. It would be one guy holding the flag or even just a spotlight on the flag hanging in the arena.

Then 9/11 happened.

Now, they say something like, “Please stand and remove your hats to honor the brave men and women who serve in our armed forces.” They have a color guard with members of all the branches holding flags and then bring out a wounded veteran to the end of the carpet. Something they pay the NHL for the right to do.

The tradition of playing the anthem before sporting events started with baseball during WWII.   Other sports adopted it and kept it.  I would hate to see it go away, it has become part of our culture.   Maybe, in a similar way as Haka, part of the Maori culture, has migrated into New Zealand sports?   I wonder if the  rest of the New Zealander population is offended by Haka, or if some Maori feel their culture is being exploited for the sake of sport?   I doubt it.   But in North America we are living in a period of name, blame and shame.   So many people pointing fingers and blaming superfluous things rather then taking any real action to solve real problems.   
 

I love the tradition of the anthem.  Especially in Buffalo because they play two anthems and I love the relationship that we have with Canada.   I never attributed the changes you describe with the color guards, etc,  to 9/11.  You may be right on that. I would have never thought to question these changes. - to name it, blame it and shame it.   
 

You seem like a pretty good guy and I learn a bunch from your hockey posts.  I can’t imagine the anthems offending anyone. So I don’t feel bad if it does bother you. You just need to deal with it which is what you apparently are doing.   

My preference is to keep playing the anthems forever.  

Edited December 18, 2020 by Pimlach

[dudacek]

I enjoy the anthems, particulary when I am in the building; they bind the crowd and focus everyone's attention on what's to come.

The military focus is a separate question, one that's small "P" political.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

The tradition of playing the anthem before sporting events started with baseball during WWII.   Other sports adopted it and kept it.  I would hate to see it go away, it has become part of our culture.   Maybe, in a similar way as Haka, part of the Maori culture, has migrated into New Zealand sports?   I wonder if the  rest of the New Zealander population is offended by Haka, or if some Maori feel their culture is being exploited for the sake of sport?   I doubt it.   But in North America we are living in a period of name, blame and shame.   So many people pointing fingers and blaming superfluous things rather then taking any real action to solve real problems.   
 

I love the tradition of the anthem.  Especially in Buffalo because they play two anthems and I love the relationship that we have with Canada.   I never attributed the changes you describe with the color guards, etc,  to 9/11.  You may be right on that. I would have never thought to question these changes. - to name it, blame it and shame it.   
 

You seem like a pretty good guy and I learn a bunch from your hockey posts.  I can’t imagine the anthems offending anyone. So I don’t feel bad if it does bother you. You just need to deal with it which is what you apparently are doing.   

My preference is to keep playing the anthems forever.  

1stB. It's purpose was to drum up nationalism then, as well.

2ndB. I did,too,... for the same reason. I took pride in knowing the words to O Canada.

3rdB. That rhymes so it must be a real thing. I've been shamed plenty that I hate our servicemen based on my views of the anthems.

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I enjoy the anthems, particulary when I am in the building; they bind the crowd and focus everyone's attention on what's to come.

The military focus is a separate question, one that's small "P" political.

Like I said, I liked the anthems, as well. I've never served. It's still my anthem, too.

And it absolutely was 9/11 when we saw the ownership of them taken over by the police and military. It seems like there was a while there where they couldn't start a game unless some grown men in some kind of uniform had tears in their eyes.

[Thorny]

IMO they should take the anthems out all together for these private events

[Pimlach]

17 minutes ago, SwampD said:

1stB. It's purpose was to drum up nationalism then, as well.

2ndB. I did,too,... for the same reason. I took pride in knowing the words to O Canada.

3rdB. That rhymes so it must be a real thing. I've been shamed plenty that I hate our servicemen based on my views of the anthems.

Like I said, I liked the anthems, as well. I've never served. It's still my anthem, too.

And it absolutely was 9/11 when we saw the ownership of them taken over by the police and military. It seems like there was a while there where they couldn't start a game unless some grown men in some kind of uniform had tears in their eyes.

Thanks for the kind reply and not going off.   I definitely get that you don’t hate the anthem or servicemen. Regarding these changes since 9/11, we can see this differently and that’s is ok.  
 

im pretty sure we have a big age gap and I’m much older.   Funny how words and perceptions change.  Like nationalism.  I was taught in grade school that simply meant a strong desire for a nation to remain sovereign.  Being a nationalist in support of this definition was a good thing.  Today is also can mean supporting your nation to the detriment of others, or something to that effect.  I did not learn that and never would have interpreted that until a very recent conversation with a younger person.  Having three kids (28,30,33) has helped keep me current a little bit. 

[steveoath]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I’ve never seen a Haka before. Interesting stuff.  First thought is I like it and will research it more.  Fascinating.  
 

TV/Internet does not do it justice. I've been lucky enough to see the all blacks, fiji* and Samoa** play scotland and it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Utterly awesome. The thing with most rugby crowds is that they tend to revere these and 60,000+ stadium will hush to witness it.

 

*fiji perform the cibi and latterly the I boli 

**Samoa perform the Siva Tau

Both are similar to the All Black's Haka, but have their own cultural significance.