2020-'21 Sabres Prospects

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Chad, like a ton of sports writers, have bias and major blind spots when it comes to ranking players. Their opinion boils down to being no better than the average fan who didn’t pursue  “writing” as a profession. Then there’s the even lower bottom of the barrel writers who have a journalism degree, and their ego gets in the way with everything that they do and write ... like Harrington as an example. 

Ya I mean like any opinion, his is just that, but there's no point denying the wealth of in-depth information he frequently brings to the table to support his arguments. We don't always have to agree with the underlying viewpoint to gain knowledge from the data. 

[Curt]

4 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Smart? are you sure about that.

He's the guy that said the Sabres should sign both Erod and Sheary to long term deals. 

Chad’s hockey takes are pretty hit and miss for me.  I don’t value his hockey opinions any more than some rando post on here.

However, I think he does get some good info from Sabres/League contacts though.

[Curt]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Ya I mean like any opinion, his is just that, but there's no point denying the wealth of in-depth information he frequently brings to the table to support his arguments. We don't always have to agree with the underlying viewpoint to gain knowledge from the data. 

Yes, he also does bring good data and information to back up/form his opinions.  Even if I don’t always agree with them.

[dudacek]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

I think you are jumping the gun in not only rating Quinn ahead of Joki but believing that it is ridiculous to do so. Joki will soon be a top 1 or 2 pairing player with more upside to draw from. Right now as a youngster he is one of the more consistent and smartest defensemen on the ice. I agree with you that Quinn was a good pick and in the not too distant future will be a more likely second line winger but the possibility of being a first line winger. But let's not get ahead ourselves. 

I think the issue is people getting ahead of themselves with Joki.

I love the way  Jokiharju plays the game and think he will be a good NHLer for a long time, but the pedestal some people put him on is baffling to me. It's like hope has installed blinders. His extreme upside is becoming a smart complimentary two-way 2/3 D — a Sam Reinhart for the back end.

Right now he is Mark Pysyk and there is a chance that is all he ever will be.

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

Ya I mean like any opinion, his is just that, but there's no point denying the wealth of in-depth information he frequently brings to the table to support his arguments. We don't always have to agree with the underlying viewpoint to gain knowledge from the data. 

I think Chad is smart and somewhat connected, and one of the better follows in the Buffalo media. He also doesn't seem to be a very flexible thinker and he comes across as more of an advocate than a journalist. He trusts his charts far more than his eyes. In fact, he sometimes comes across like he doesn't follow hockey with his eyes

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think the issue is people getting ahead of themselves with Joki.

I love the way  Jokiharju plays the game and think he will be a good NHLer for a long time, but the pedestal some people put him on is baffling to me. It's like hope has installed blinders. His extreme upside is becoming a smart complimentary two-way 2/3 D — a Sam Reinhart for the back end.

Right now he is Mark Pysyk and there is a chance that is all he ever will be.

 

You give a very apt comparison in describing his play as a Sam Reinhart for the back end. I consider that as a high tribute to the 21 year old defender. If Risto had the thinking capacity of Joki he would be an all-star defenseman.  

[Thorny]

21 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think the issue is people getting ahead of themselves with Joki.

I love the way  Jokiharju plays the game and think he will be a good NHLer for a long time, but the pedestal some people put him on is baffling to me. It's like hope has installed blinders. His extreme upside is becoming a smart complimentary two-way 2/3 D — a Sam Reinhart for the back end.

Right now he is Mark Pysyk and there is a chance that is all he ever will be.

I think Chad is smart and somewhat connected, and one of the better follows in the Buffalo media. He also doesn't seem to be a very flexible thinker and he comes across as more of an advocate than a journalist. He trusts his charts far more than his eyes. In fact, he sometimes comes across like he doesn't follow hockey with his eyes

I don't have a problem with it. He's always upfront about his thought process - there's no hidden bias there. 

[dudacek]

54 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You give a very apt comparison in describing his play as a Sam Reinhart for the back end. I consider that as a high tribute to the 21 year old defender.

Comparing him to Quinn, I see Quinn's best-case scenario upside as David Pastrnak/Mark Stone.

Henri will never be that level of player; his ceiling is roughly the same range as where Quinn is most likely to land.

That difference in upsides is why I think it's ridiculous to rank Joki higher. I would very surprised if more than a small handful of NHL scouts prefers Joki.

Edited November 7, 2020 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

Joker is probably a 3rd defender, with Dahlin he could be a #2 but idk if he'll ever have the physical tools to pull that off. He's a good player and I would rather have him than Nylander at this point. Who knows, maybe this year he will surprise. 

[Taro T]

16 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Joker is probably a 3rd defender, with Dahlin he could be a #2 but idk if he'll ever have the physical tools to pull that off. He's a good player and I would rather have him than Nylander at this point. Who knows, maybe this year he will surprise. 

Jokiharju is most likely going to be a 4.  If he clicks w/ Dahlin the way he did with Scandella, he'll effectively be a 2 or 3 at worst.  If they can't find a partner for him like that the way they couldn't down the stretch, he'll effectively be a 5 or a 6.  Which still leaves him an everyday player & still is worth Nylander straight up.  And with no particular chemistry effects will look like/be a 4.

Right now, he still has that new toy vibe working that EVERY young D-man that shows up here gets, and seems to get that boost to his evaluation.  Once he consistently looks better than McCabe when not playing with Marco, then will reevaluate him.  Until then, he's a 4/5.

[Thorny]

 

 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

 

 

I see we have a parting gift from GMJB.

[dudacek]

Even if the Sabres don't make another move, I see 6 proven NHL defencemen on the Sabres roster.

This is Pilut deja vu. Borgen has not proven himself to be good enough that you move Risto or Montour or Miller just to give him a spot.

If he is better than Irwin and Davidson in camp, he will be in the NHL.

[GASabresIUFAN]

can never have to many D.

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

can never have to many D.

Prior to last season would've agreed with that sentiment.  BUT ...  When there's only 1 top 6 C on the roster and 1 bottom 6 C on the roster, one absolutely can have too much D as we sadly found out last season.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

can never have to many D.

As you indicate having an abundance of good players on a unit, especially in a most likely compressed schedule, is something to celebrate and not lament. 

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Prior to last season would've agreed with that sentiment.  BUT ...  When there's only 1 top 6 C on the roster and 1 bottom 6 C on the roster, one absolutely can have too much D as we sadly found out last season.

You don't consider Staal as a genuine second line center? 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

As you indicate having an abundance of good players on a unit, especially in a most likely compressed schedule, is something to celebrate and not lament. 

You don't consider Staal as a genuine second line center? 

Was Staal a Sabre LAST season?

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Was Staal a Sabre LAST season?

I misread your response. I thought you were talking about this upcoming season. 

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

Prior to last season would've agreed with that sentiment.  BUT ...  When there's only 1 top 6 C on the roster and 1 bottom 6 C on the roster, one absolutely can have too much D as we sadly found out last season.

100%

[LTS]

9 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

 

Maybe I am incorrect.. but if he stays in Rochester he doesn't have to be protected right?  I would imagine that's why a bunch of middling D were signed to 1 year deals. Borgen may be worth a shot, but he's not a bona fide roster player yet. As such, the better play is to keep him in the AHL.

[dudacek]

41 minutes ago, LTS said:

Maybe I am incorrect.. but if he stays in Rochester he doesn't have to be protected right?  I would imagine that's why a bunch of middling D were signed to 1 year deals. Borgen may be worth a shot, but he's not a bona fide roster player yet. As such, the better play is to keep him in the AHL.

Whether or not he plays in the minors has no bearing on whether we have to protect him.

Borgen is about to turn 24 and is a third year pro. If he's going to be a player, it's time for him to take the step.

[LTS]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Whether or not he plays in the minors has no bearing on whether we have to protect him.

Borgen is about to turn 24 and is a third year pro. If he's going to be a player, it's time for him to take the step.

I would agree then.  I had thought, for some reason, that the number of games he played in the NHL came into play with regards to having to protect him.

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

Whether or not he plays in the minors has no bearing on whether we have to protect him.

Borgen is about to turn 24 and is a third year pro. If he's going to be a player, it's time for him to take the step.

A few years ago our blue line was half staffed with AHL players. Now the unit has some depth with players vying for positions. As you indicate now is the time for him to show whether he can take the next step into the big league. Even if he doesn't make the final cut it wouldn't be surprising that sometime during the season he will earn a call up. Another player whose rights have been retained is Pilut who currently is playing in the KHL. What's obvious is that the depth has increased and the talent upgraded. Progression is certainly better than regression. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

I would agree then.  I had thought, for some reason, that the number of games he played in the NHL came into play with regards to having to protect him.

Minimum # of NHL games only comes into play in that at least 2 forwards and 1 D need to have 40 NHL games the previous season or 70 NHL games total.  

Everybody that has 2 or less years in the NHL/AHL is exempt. 

Anybody else that the team holds the rights to needs to be protected.  The Sabres will protect 7-3-1.  Because protecting 4 D or 2 G makes a team expose 2 additional F's.  (They go from 11 play3rs protected in total down to 9.)

[Eleven]

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Minimum # of NHL games only comes into play in that at least 2 forwards and 1 D need to have 40 NHL games the previous season or 70 NHL games total.  

Everybody that has 2 or less years in the NHL/AHL is exempt. 

Anybody else that the team holds the rights to needs to be protected.  The Sabres will protect 7-3-1.  Because protecting 4 D or 2 G makes a team expose 2 additional F's.  (They go from 11 play3rs protected in total down to 9.)

Is there any reward for not protecting a goalie?  I.e., would they be able to protect an extra forward or something?

It troubles me that I knew the answer to this last time...

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Is there any reward for not protecting a goalie?  I.e., would they be able to protect an extra forward or something?

It troubles me that I knew the answer to this last time...

They can protect up to 11 players if they protect 1 goalie, 3 D, and 7 forwards.  If they want to protect a 2nd G, 4th D, or 8th F then they can only protect 9 players.

They are required to expose at least 2 F's & 1D that meet the minimum experience levels stated in an earlier post and they also must expose at least 1 G with any level of experience. 

In order to expose a player the team must control their rights (i.e., they have to be under contract for '21-'22 or must be an RFA to which the team has rights.

Players w/ full NTC's and NMC's must be protected.  Not sure what limited NMC/NTCs also trigger the requirement for the player to be protected.  (Haven't seen that specifically addressed in the summaries of the expansion draft rules that are available and have never directly seen the official rules regarding it.)

Players with 2 or fewer NHL/AHL seasons don't have to be protected.