2020-21 Trade Rumors and Speculation

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Make that trade and do not look back. 
 

Risto brings grit, but his defense play leaves a lot to be desired as the puck spends more time in the Sabres Zone with him on the ice.

He is one of the few players on the team that makes Jack’s Metrics worse when they are on the ice together. 
 

Trading him for a player of Copp’s Ability improves the team 

 

This is such a stickler for me, and it's not debatable statistically. And the kicker is that Krueger makes Risto play with Jack SO much. 

The scenarios in which I am good with keeping Risto require him to be played much differently than he has been. If they intend to use him like they have, please, move him. Thing is, why would they move him, then, in that case. 

The idea of moving Risto is admittedly appealing simply because it guarantees that usage can't/won't happen. Until it actually happens, Risto's usage being significantly altered is a myth. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Thorny

[Curt]

28 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Would agree w/ this.  

Would also say that at most 2 of the RHD should get moved and if 2 are moved Miller has to be 1 of the 2.  Especially with improved F's & solid GT, they can limp by with Ristolainen or Montour on the top pairing.  Losing both Risto & Montour would make D an area needing upgrade once again.

Yeah, I wouldn’t want to trade both unless they were bringing in a different, clear top-4 RD.

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This I agree with. Ideally, he is replaced by defensively reliable LHD Of equal value, although it can happen indirectly.

Yup, too deep at RD, too shallow at LD.

[Thorny]

50 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Would agree w/ this.  

Would also say that at most 2 of the RHD should get moved and if 2 are moved Miller has to be 1 of the 2.  Especially with improved F's & solid GT, they can limp by with Ristolainen or Montour on the top pairing.  Losing both Risto & Montour would make D an area needing upgrade once again.

We can't pair Dahlin with Risto, we really can't. 

The pair Dahlin is on should get the most minutes and I don't want Risto getting the most minutes and playing a lot with JE. 

Even if we keep one of Montour or Risto it's not guaranteed one slots in with Dahlin. It could easily be Jokiharju or Miller than fits the best with him stylistically. And in my mind that's not "if they take jumps", it's arguably right now. I'd say certainly in the case of Risto - I do not like the idea of them being paired together. This isn't all to say I don't get the heart of your argument that you are more comfortable having at least one of those two on the team. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

In the end I bet the D looks something like: Dahlin, Ristolainen, Jokiharju, McCabe, and a couple new UFAs/young-players-that-succeed on the bottom pair. 

If it's these guys in the top 4 I'd go with:

Dahlin - Jokijarju

McCabe - Ristolainen

I can live with that - if we have a capable, multi-line forward unit in front of him, I see Dahlin as being ready for top pair usage and good enough for Jokiharju to be his partner. A second pair Risto not paired with the other Rasmus is liveable. 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

45 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This I agree with. Ideally, he is replaced by defensively reliable LHD Of equal value, although it can happen indirectly.

I think our defence as a group was pretty good last year and will look even better with more forward help, which is why I am reluctant to step back.

I don’t have a problem with what you are presenting here. I have a problem with a defence where Miller Joki and McCabe are all in our top four and a clear step up from whoever is on pair 3. Joki hasn’t shown he’s ready, Iller and McCabe have struggled at times in that role, and there is no safety net.

Yup, regardless, whoever we bring in to be our third pair need to be defensively reliable.

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

Yup, regardless, whoever we bring in to be our third pair need to be defensively reliable.

If Borgen is NHL ready he would be the guy on the inside for this. 

[Ducky]

13 hours ago, Thorny said:

I thought Pionk had been a pleasant surprise?

Like at least relative to his name?

He's been  a pleasant surprise but do we need him if we have a bona fide 1RHD and and DeMelo signed as our second right-hand defenseman question?

He is making 3m for one more year and then he'll want a substantial raise and I'm not sure if he is worth it.

 

[Taro T]

12 hours ago, Thorny said:

We can't pair Dahlin with Risto, we really can't. 

The pair Dahlin is on should get the most minutes and I don't want Risto getting the most minutes and playing a lot with JE. 

Even if we keep one of Montour or Risto it's not guaranteed one slots in with Dahlin. It could easily be Jokiharju or Miller than fits the best with him stylistically. And in my mind that's not "if they take jumps", it's arguably right now. I'd say certainly in the case of Risto - I do not like the idea of them being paired together. This isn't all to say I don't get the heart of your argument that you are more comfortable having at least one of those two on the team. 

 

12 hours ago, Thorny said:

In the end I bet the D looks something like: Dahlin, Ristolainen, Jokiharju, McCabe, and a couple new UFAs/young-players-that-succeed on the bottom pair. 

If it's these guys in the top 4 I'd go with:

Dahlin - Jokijarju

McCabe - Ristolainen

I can live with that - if we have a capable, multi-line forward unit in front of him, I see Dahlin as being ready for top pair usage and good enough for Jokiharju to be his partner. A second pair Risto not paired with the other Rasmus is liveable. 

 

Absolutely agree that in the past the Rasmi have been far less than the sum of their parts when paired together.

Would hope the top 2 pairings are as you propose although would be pleasantly surprised if the 3rd LHD could drop McCabe to the 3rd pairing.  Expect Dahlin to get the lion's share of ES & PP duty amongst the LHD & Ristolainen (or Montour, should he be the one left when the music stops) to get the bulk of the ES & PK duty amongst the RHD but with the 2 of them on the ice together seldom (excepting overlap of their primary shifts).

Expecting (hoping) the 2 (assuming Risto remains) get used the way Anaheim typically deployed Pronger & Niedermayer- almost always having 1 on the ice but rarely having them both until crunch time.  If each play 25 minutes / game (quite realistic based on prior usage and Dahlin's continued maturation), then then other 4 only have to split up to 70 minutes/ between them (& likely less as both PP units can run 4-1), so the other 2 in the top 4 can get ~20-22/ game & 3rd pairing gets ~12-15 / game if they aren't fully trusted and closer to everybody else getting ~17-18/ game if all 6 are trusted.

If Montour remains, would put it 50/50 he pairs w/ Dahlin, but would expect his usage closer to 23/game.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Absolutely agree that in the past the Rasmi have been far less than the sum of their parts when paired together.

Would hope the top 2 pairings are as you propose although would be pleasantly surprised if the 3rd LHD could drop McCabe to the 3rd pairing.  Expect Dahlin to get the lion's share of ES & PP duty amongst the LHD & Ristolainen (or Montour, should he be the one left when the music stops) to get the bulk of the ES & PK duty amongst the RHD but with the 2 of them on the ice together seldom (excepting overlap of their primary shifts).

Expecting (hoping) the 2 (assuming Risto remains) get used the way Anaheim typically deployed Pronger & Niedermayer- almost always having 1 on the ice but rarely having them both until crunch time.  If each play 25 minutes / game (quite realistic based on prior usage and Dahlin's continued maturation), then then other 4 only have to split up to 70 minutes/ between them (& likely less as both PP units can run 4-1), so the other 2 in the top 4 can get ~20-22/ game & 3rd pairing gets ~12-15 / game if they aren't fully trusted and closer to everybody else getting ~17-18/ game if all 6 are trusted.

If Montour remains, would put it 50/50 he pairs w/ Dahlin, but would expect his usage closer to 23/game.

I think this line of thought is why some want Risto traded (or feel it's the best option). Most would agree that his game in the D-zone leaves something of a question yet, here you are putting him on the PK.

I've always thought that if someone could get him to stop chasing opponents behind the net and get him to use his D partner more, he could be a better and more reliable Dman (more complete). Myers used to do the same thing frustrating me to no end.

[Curt]

22 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Absolutely agree that in the past the Rasmi have been far less than the sum of their parts when paired together.

Would hope the top 2 pairings are as you propose although would be pleasantly surprised if the 3rd LHD could drop McCabe to the 3rd pairing.  Expect Dahlin to get the lion's share of ES & PP duty amongst the LHD & Ristolainen (or Montour, should he be the one left when the music stops) to get the bulk of the ES & PK duty amongst the RHD but with the 2 of them on the ice together seldom (excepting overlap of their primary shifts).

Expecting (hoping) the 2 (assuming Risto remains) get used the way Anaheim typically deployed Pronger & Niedermayer- almost always having 1 on the ice but rarely having them both until crunch time.  If each play 25 minutes / game (quite realistic based on prior usage and Dahlin's continued maturation), then then other 4 only have to split up to 70 minutes/ between them (& likely less as both PP units can run 4-1), so the other 2 in the top 4 can get ~20-22/ game & 3rd pairing gets ~12-15 / game if they aren't fully trusted and closer to everybody else getting ~17-18/ game if all 6 are trusted.

If Montour remains, would put it 50/50 he pairs w/ Dahlin, but would expect his usage closer to 23/game.

My point of view:  

There is NFW that either Dahlin or Risto (or Montour) should be playing 25 mins per game.  They shouldn’t get used the way that Niedermayer/Pronger were because they aren’t nearly as good.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I think this line of thought is why some want Risto traded (or feel it's the best option). Most would agree that his game in the D-zone leaves something of a question yet, here you are putting him on the PK.

I've always thought that if someone could get him to stop chasing opponents behind the net and get him to use his D partner more, he could be a better and more reliable Dman (more complete). Myers used to do the same thing frustrating me to no end.

Whichever RHD would bring back the bigger haul is the one that should be traded.  Ristolainen or Montour, don't care (and wouldn't that be something if somebody really needed a PP pointman and wanted Miller for that role!) but 1 needs to go.

Personally, don't see Risto get lost on the PK nearly as much as he does 5v5 as teams don't cycle nearly as much on the PP as they do 5v5 and it is easier for him to remain disciplined.  And, can't see him ever fully breaking that habit 5v5 as it is simply too engrained in his play by now.

Hoping whoever comes in as the 3rd LHD is good at PK as McCabe really shouldn't be their best D at the PK, but IMHO he is.

[Brawndo]

Montour is 24th on the list and Risto has been taken off of it. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

My point of view:  

There is NFW that either Dahlin or Risto (or Montour) should be playing 25 mins per game.  They shouldn’t get used the way that Niedermayer/Pronger were because they aren’t nearly as good.

Would agree that ideally neither would play a full 25 on average, but if Ristolainen is back we know he will get that ice time & fully expect Dahlin to get that as well.  Krueger leans on the guys he trusts.

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Montour is 24th on the list and Risto has been taken off of it. 

Do you expect somebody know something or are they basing that off a knowledge of Krueger trusting Ristolainen and his past usage of Montour literally moving him through all 7 D slots and never seeming comfortable leaving him in any of them?

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Whichever RHD would bring back the bigger haul is the one that should be traded.  Ristolainen or Montour, don't care (and wouldn't that be something if somebody really needed a PP pointman and wanted Miller for that role!) but 1 needs to go.

Personally, don't see Risto get lost on the PK nearly as much as he does 5v5 as teams don't cycle nearly as much on the PP as they do 5v5 and it is easier for him to remain disciplined.  And, can't see him ever fully breaking that habit 5v5 as it is simply too engrained in his play by now.

Hoping whoever comes in as the 3rd LHD is good at PK as McCabe really shouldn't be their best D at the PK, but IMHO he is.

Fair point.

[Brawndo]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Do you expect somebody know something or are they basing that off a knowledge of Krueger trusting Ristolainen and his past usage of Montour literally moving him through all 7 D slots and never seeming comfortable leaving him in any of them?

Servalli has contacts around the league and asks what names they are hearing. Given the fact that Risto was removed while Montour was added tells me the Sabres are not interested in moving the former. 

[dudacek]

Just now, Brawndo said:

Servalli has contacts around the league and asks what names they are hearing. Given the fact that Risto was removed while Montour was added tells me the Sabres are not interested in moving the former. 

I think when all is said and done, Montour will be moved.

He's probably plan B for several GMs looking to see the price on guys like Dumba, Pietrangelo, Krug, Barrie, OEL, Hamonic, Barrie and Hamilton first. One might read the tea leaves and decide to pounce early, but it's more likely we will have to wait for a few other balls to land. There's a lot of demand, but also a lot of supply.

I think he's bound for Western Canada. The Flames, Canucks and Jets are all in need of a player like him (No matter what Ducky might say)

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Brawndo said:

Servalli has contacts around the league and asks what names they are hearing. Given the fact that Risto was removed while Montour was added tells me the Sabres are not interested in moving the former. 

Risto certain has his liabilities regarding reading plays and decision-making. But one attribute that he has is that he is a hitter in a unit that lacks it. And that is an attribute that Krueger has acknowledged on more than a few occasions.  Other than McCabe the other blue liners are more skaters than physical players. And it should be noted that for a big defender Risto can skate. If Montour is the more likely candidate to be moved Miller is an acceptable replacement. Montour is the better player but he is also the more marketable player.

I like Montour and have felt that he wasn't utilized in a role that accentuated his best qualities. But even when acknowledging that there is still a great need to ship an extra defensive asset out to get a return that adds to the forward line.  

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think when all is said and done, Montour will be moved.

He's probably plan B for several GMs looking to see the price on guys like Dumba, Pietrangelo, Krug, Barrie, OEL, Hamonic, Barrie and Hamilton first. One might read the tea leaves and decide to pounce early, but it's more likely we will have to wait for a few other balls to land. There's a lot of demand, but also a lot of supply.

I think he's bound for Western Canada. The Flames, Canucks and Jets are all in need of a player like him (No matter what Ducky might say)

Expecting you're right about Montour being the odd but will be disappointed (barring hearing what he fetches REALLY fills a need on this squad) as my expectation is if he's here again he'll take a big step forward back towards what he was in Anaheim now that he knows Krueger's system & what is expected of him in it.

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Expecting you're right about Montour being the odd but will be disappointed (barring hearing what he fetches REALLY fills a need on this squad) as my expectation is if he's here again he'll take a big step forward back towards what he was in Anaheim now that he knows Krueger's system & what is expected of him in it.

Agreed. We haven't seen Montour's best. I hate the idea that we bought high and are poised to sell low.

My ideal move would be Miller for a similar value defenceman who plays the left side and kills penalties — essentially another Scandella/McCabe type.

[dudacek]

Friedman told the Instigators (again) that he thinks the Sabres are poking around Columbus for a goalie.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Would agree that ideally neither would play a full 25 on average, but if Ristolainen is back we know he will get that ice time & fully expect Dahlin to get that as well.  Krueger leans on the guys he trusts.

I don’t know about that really.  Risto was at almost 23 mins, and that was his lowest in a long time.  Krueger seems to trust him less than previous coaches.  I don’t think Krueger has shown that he trusts Dahlin very much at all honestly.

[Flashsabre]

41 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Friedman told the Instigators (again) that he thinks the Sabres are poking around Columbus for a goalie.

Elvis has entered the building!!😛

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Risto certain has his liabilities regarding reading plays and decision-making. But one attribute that he has is that he is a hitter in a unit that lacks it. And that is an attribute that Krueger has acknowledged on more than a few occasions.  Other than McCabe the other blue liners are more skaters than physical players. And it should be noted that for a big defender Risto can skate. If Montour is the more likely candidate to be moved Miller is an acceptable replacement. Montour is the better player but he is also the more marketable player.

I like Montour and have felt that he wasn't utilized in a role that accentuated his best qualities. But even when acknowledging that there is still a great need to ship an extra defensive asset out to get a return that adds to the forward line.  

That’s the issue with Risto though. When the decision comes down to delivering a hit or moving the puck to a forward for a zone exit, he more often then not chooses the hit. This results in sustained defensive zone time for the Sabres. Since Ralph does put Risto out with Jack more than he should, those shifts are usually a complete waste.

TBH I think the real reason he hasn’t been moved is the fact that Pegula likes him and doesn’t want him traded. 

[JohnC]

59 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

That’s the issue with Risto though. When the decision comes down to delivering a hit or moving the puck to a forward for a zone exit, he more often then not chooses the hit. This results in sustained defensive zone time for the Sabres. Since Ralph does put Risto out with Jack more than he should, those shifts are usually a complete waste.

TBH I think the real reason he hasn’t been moved is the fact that Pegula likes him and doesn’t want him traded. 

As you noted Risto's strengths and weaknesses are evident. There has been talk for the past couple of years that his minutes would be curtailed and he would be going against the second rather than top lines. That has not happened to the extent that it needs to. With the development of Dahlin and Joki there is more reason to believe that his role will be lowered a tad and his minutes limited. That should benefit him. 

Where I disagree with you is that I believe that it is Krueger more so than the owner who is enamored with his rugged (although not always thoughtful) style of play. Last year was Krueger's first year coaching this team. So there is still a feeling out and learning process going on between the players and the coaching staff. Hopefully, with the better understanding what the players are capable of and what the coach wants the puzzle pieces will fit together better.