2020-21 Trade Rumors and Speculation

[Thorny]

It's still not going to stop me from moving 2 of our RHD if it's going to complete the forward fix. We can always grab a cheap 3rd pair guy in UFA

I have significantly more hope for Borgen finding an appropriate niche than Mittestadt. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

It's still not going to stop me from moving 2 of our RHD if it's going to complete the forward fix. We can always grab a cheap 3rd pair guy in UFA

I agree! Save the money invest in more scoring.  That is our weakest area and moving on from Risto and Miller removes to decent salaries who aren't very good defensively.  Dahlin and Montour are more then capable of carrying the O load from the D and it may free up Jokiharju to blossom offensively.  

[steveoath]

don't we still have Piluts nhl rights? Could adams not give him a call and work something out? Or has that ship sailed?

[Thorny]

22 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree! Save the money invest in more scoring.  That is our weakest area and moving on from Risto and Miller removes to decent salaries who aren't very good defensively.  Dahlin and Montour are more then capable of carrying the O load from the D and it may free up Jokiharju to blossom offensively.  

Yup. I'm not Sabres twitter that views Risto as addition by substraction, I just see him as more 2nd pair (like the other RHD) and his salary, while not exorbitant, probably points to a situation where he can be replaced by value committee, especially if it can get our front end fixed. 

I'd also be reasonably okay with keeping him - and playing him in a lower role - if the other 2 RHD are what fetch the return we are looking for. 

I'm probably most happy with dealing him as it guarantees we don't have to watch them botch his usage like they have for years. 

[tom webster]

26 minutes ago, steveoath said:

don't we still have Piluts nhl rights? Could adams not give him a call and work something out? Or has that ship sailed?

I was wondering sane thing. KHL is a mess. I think there is a deal to be made there.

[dudacek]

I think we have three top 4 D and three 4/5 guys right now. After years of being bad, our defence corps is deep but unbalanced.

Going with Dahlin, Joki, Borgen, McCabe, Miller and a random 3rd-pairing pickup — as I've seen many internet GMs do — scares the heck out of me.

Miller as 1RD? He couldn't stay in the lineup here or in LV, let alone in that slot. Joki is not as good today as you think he is, not yet. Borgen hasn't shown he's more than a minor leaguer. You all know what McCabe is, and the proposed adds are basically McCabe 2.0.

No. Just no.

Edited September 23, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorny]

45 minutes ago, steveoath said:

don't we still have Piluts nhl rights? Could adams not give him a call and work something out? Or has that ship sailed?

Yup, we do. 

[Thorny]

29 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think we have three top 4 D and three 4/5 guys right now. After years of being bad, our defence corps is deep but unbalanced.

Going with Dahlin, Joki, Borgen, McCabe, Miller and a random 3rd-pairing pickup — as I've seen many internet GMs do — scares the heck out of me.

Miller as 1RD? He couldn't stay in the lineup here or in LV, let alone in that slot. Joki is not as good today as you think he is, not yet. Borgen hasn't shown he's more than a minor leaguer. You all know what McCabe is, and the proposed adds are basically McCabe 2.0.

No. Just no.

None of the RHD we have now are capable of playing the minutes we've always given Risto (up to and including Risto) adequately. The way the D is deployed needs to change regardless. 

There are a lot of people that feel the exact same way about Risto and Montour as the guys you just listed - for my part, neither have proven themselves as 1st pair capable, just like Joki and Miller. Do I think Risto and Montour are better? No, I don't. Joki has more upside but as of now I don't see a big talent or functionality gap between the 4. 

In that, I buy the argument that trading two, in a vacuum, wouldn't be smart - as we need 3 RHD and that pool is 4. But this isn't a vacuum - and as stated I'd happily move two and pick up someone in UFA if it means addressing the forwards. 

There is no hole that would be made by trading any one of them that couldn't be addressed in house (again, with the necessary-regardless altered usage) and trading two only opens up a hole on the 3rd pair, a spot not too difficult to address, Borgen or not.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

If even Botterill can add a multitude of depth D, I'm sure KA could add one. 

Trade who you need to to get the best return, and keep the other 3/2.

Re @dudacek this would probably be something we'd find bridge gapping difficult on as our evaluations of the 4 RHD in question is a fair bit different. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

46 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think we have three top 4 D and three 4/5 guys right now. After years of being bad, our defence corps is deep but unbalanced.

Going with Dahlin, Joki, Borgen, McCabe, Miller and a random 3rd-pairing pickup — as I've seen many internet GMs do — scares the heck out of me.

Miller as 1RD? He couldn't stay in the lineup here or in LV, let alone in that slot. Joki is not as good today as you think he is, not yet. Borgen hasn't shown he's more than a minor leaguer. You all know what McCabe is, and the proposed adds are basically McCabe 2.0.

No. Just no.

Miller needs to go along with Risto.  Re-sign Montour and your top 4 are Dahlin, McCabe, Jokiharju and Montour.  That is a good starting point.  Add two reasonable cost depth D, like Marc Staal and or Jon Merrill and you have a very credible backend.  

[Marvin]

55 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I was wondering sane thing. KHL is a mess. I think there is a deal to be made there.

That is an understatement.  I agree with you both.

[dudacek]

44 minutes ago, Thorny said:

If even Botterill can add a multitude of depth D, I'm sure KA could add one. 

Trade who you need to to get the best return, and keep the other 3/2.

Re @dudacek this would probably be something we'd find bridge gapping difficult on as our evaluations of the 4 RHD in question is a fair bit different. 

Depth defenceman aren't that hard to find.

It certainly comes down to the fact that I don't see I see Montour and Risto as depth defencemen, or easily replaceable.

Certainly not by Marc Staal and jon Merrill

Edited September 23, 2020 by dudacek

[Andrew Amerk]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Depth defenceman aren't that hard to find.

It certainly comes down to the fact that I don't see I see Montour and Risto as depth defencemen, or easily replaceable.

Certainly not by Marc Staal and jon Merrill

I think Miller/Montour/Risto are all more replaceable than you think, and I believe the idea of trading 2 of the 3 is to improve the Sabres offense. 
 

The potential replacements MAY be a step below that trio, but at the cost of improving the Sabres offense, I think it’s worth it. 
 

We don’t need 27 puck moving D on our roster. I’d rather have “cheaper” players that actually just play D. Dahlin and Joki and whoever is left of the trio are enough puck movers. Let the other 3 provide balance. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Andrew Amerk

[Curt]

Throwing my hat in here.  I think that all of Risto, Montour, and Jokiharju are roughly middle of the pack 2nd pair guys.  Miller I thought was fine as a 3rd pair guy, with a bonus of having some PP utility.

I think that one of Risto, Montour, Miller NEEDS to be moved.  If they aren’t going to use him properly, maybe it should be Montour, but my ideal scenario is trade Risto, trade Miller, and acquire a defensively sound depth RD who can eat up PK mins, and also add a solid 2nd/3rd pair LD.

The D group needs some serious balancing.

[Thorny]

Agree more less with the two takes above ^

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Depth defenceman aren't that hard to find.

It certainly comes down to the fact that I don't see I see Montour and Risto as depth defencemen, or easily replaceable.

Certainly not by Marc Staal and jon Merrill

I wasn't really calling Risto and Montour depth D, more that I see 4 roughly 2nd pair guys, and that even after moving 2, we'd only need to bring in a depth guy for the 3rd pair. No, first pair won't be adequately filled, but it wasn't going to be anyways. 

For the record, my mock had Pietrangelo on our top pair on the right. So I get the appeal of upping the talent of the unit, but as mentioned - even trading 2 of the D mentioned leaves us with, at worst, (within the context of my evaluations) a downgrade of the "2nd pair" guy we were gonna have on the third pair, into more of a true 3rd pair talent (presumably UFA). A downgrade I'll happily take to ensure the add of both a defensive C and a defensive winger. 

I feel our team defense (and the style Krueger could employ) has a chance to have a fairly sizable net-benefit with this approach. Which I care about more than the on paper strength of the d-unit on it's own. PARTICULARLY if the rumours of them being in the market for a goalie upgrade are true. 

I see Miller for example as someone more likely to succeed in a reasonable way if we have forwards on multiple lines actually tipping possession in our favor. If the guys that can get the puck up to the forwards actually don't have to play in their own end again shortly after, they may look a lot better. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

For the record, I do not think they are going to trade Risto. 

[Radar]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

For the record, I do not think they are going to trade Risto. 

I honestly believe he's worth more to us than the return we'd get for him.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, Radar said:

I honestly believe he's worth more to us than the return we'd get for him.

At this point, I would not be surprised if this were true, at all. 

Unless we attempt to factor in the net-gain, if moving both him and Montour allows us to positively re-shape the roster in other areas. It's difficult to judge but, in my opinion, it's worth at the very least thinking about. 

The return definitely matters, but what we do with the cap space indirectly does, too. To me, it's a feasible route because as noted upthread I don't see much functional difference talent-wise between the 4 in the running. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

Would I trade Risto to the Jets for Copp and a pick, and sign Fast? Yes, I'd consider that a reasonable net gain on ice for ~ the same cost, while slightly addressing the draft pick holes Botterill left. 

Are we "losing" that trade? Arguably in isolation, yes. But I think overall this would be a sequence of events that would improve the team.  This is just an example - there are presumably lots of different ways they could go about it - it really just depends on what the options are.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Thorny

[Ducky]

On 9/22/2020 at 1:08 PM, Thorny said:

You are the resident Jets fan around these parts, and you said you were willing to deal Copp for Casey. I obviously have no idea what Kevin Cheveldayoff, Born February 4th, 1970, would be open to, but I hold your opinion in high regard and since you said that deal seemed fair, I've run with it. Since I've been into Copp for a while. 

Also, going off the fact you said they'd be open to it. 

This Fictitious Fantasy Land could not be brought to You All without the valuable fertilizing manure you see here in this post.

- - - 

And, you know, this is a message board, on which we are in a trade speculation thread. THE HUMANITY

I'd do it in a heartbeat but Chevy will probably ride his contracts out until he only has a year left.

His agent (Overcharge) seems to be walking him to UFA or a trade, whichever comes first.

[Ducky]

On 9/22/2020 at 4:10 PM, Shootica said:

Hey @Ducky, is Roslovic for Montour a trade framework that could work on your end?

I haven't really put a lot of thought into that, and I'm not even that familiar with Roslovic as a player, but it seems to fit both team's needs.  Winnipeg has (correct me if I'm wrong) a glut of wingers and is lacking at RD, and Buffalo has too many RHD and needs a middle six RW.

Both RFAs, Montour has a higher QO.  Maybe this has been mentioned in here before but all the conversation that I've seen has revolved around Copp.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't have any interest in him. We need a 1RHD ideally. DeMelo will probably be re-signed. I'd like to see a bona fide 1RHD and DeMelo re-signed and Poink traded. We have enough O on the back end, we need talent with size (and a mean streak would be nice).

[Thorny]

I thought Pionk had been a pleasant surprise?

Like at least relative to his name?

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Throwing my hat in here.  I think that all of Risto, Montour, and Jokiharju are roughly middle of the pack 2nd pair guys.  Miller I thought was fine as a 3rd pair guy, with a bonus of having some PP utility.

I think that one of Risto, Montour, Miller NEEDS to be moved.  If they aren’t going to use him properly, maybe it should be Montour, but my ideal scenario is trade Risto, trade Miller, and acquire a defensively sound depth RD who can eat up PK mins, and also add a solid 2nd/3rd pair LD.

The D group needs some serious balancing.

Would agree w/ this.  

Would also say that at most 2 of the RHD should get moved and if 2 are moved Miller has to be 1 of the 2.  Especially with improved F's & solid GT, they can limp by with Ristolainen or Montour on the top pairing.  Losing both Risto & Montour would make D an area needing upgrade once again.

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

Throwing my hat in here.  I think that all of Risto, Montour, and Jokiharju are roughly middle of the pack 2nd pair guys.  Miller I thought was fine as a 3rd pair guy, with a bonus of having some PP utility.

I think that one of Risto, Montour, Miller NEEDS to be moved.  If they aren’t going to use him properly, maybe it should be Montour, but my ideal scenario is trade Risto, trade Miller, and acquire a defensively sound depth RD who can eat up PK mins, and also add a solid 2nd/3rd pair LD.

The D group needs some serious balancing.

This I agree with. Ideally, he is replaced by defensively reliable LHD Of equal value, although it can happen indirectly.

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Agree more less with the two takes above ^

I wasn't really calling Risto and Montour depth D, more that I see 4 roughly 2nd pair guys, and that even after moving 2, we'd only need to bring in a depth guy for the 3rd pair. No, first pair won't be adequately filled, but it wasn't going to be anyways. 

For the record, my mock had Pietrangelo on our top pair on the right. So I get the appeal of upping the talent of the unit, but as mentioned - even trading 2 of the D mentioned leaves us with, at worst, (within the context of my evaluations) a downgrade of the "2nd pair" guy we were gonna have on the third pair, into more of a true 3rd pair talent (presumably UFA). A downgrade I'll happily take to ensure the add of both a defensive C and a defensive winger. 

I feel our team defense (and the style Krueger could employ) has a chance to have a fairly sizable net-benefit with this approach. Which I care about more than the on paper strength of the d-unit on it's own. PARTICULARLY if the rumours of them being in the market for a goalie upgrade are true. 

I see Miller for example as someone more likely to succeed in a reasonable way if we have forwards on multiple lines actually tipping possession in our favor. If the guys that can get the puck up to the forwards actually don't have to play in their own end again shortly after, they may look a lot better. 

I think our defence as a group was pretty good last year and will look even better with more forward help, which is why I am reluctant to step back.

I don’t have a problem with what you are presenting here. I have a problem with a defence where Miller Joki and McCabe are all in our top four and a clear step up from whoever is on pair 3. Joki hasn’t shown he’s ready, Miller and McCabe have struggled at times in that role, and there is no safety net.

Edited September 24, 2020 by dudacek

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Would I trade Risto to the Jets for Copp and a pick, and sign Fast? Yes, I'd consider that a reasonable net gain on ice for ~ the same cost, while slightly addressing the draft pick holes Botterill left. 

Are we "losing" that trade? Arguably in isolation, yes. But I think overall this would be a sequence of events that would improve the team.  This is just an example - there are presumably lots of different ways they could go about it - it really just depends on what the options are.

Make that trade and do not look back. 
 

Risto brings grit, but his defense play leaves a lot to be desired as the puck spends more time in the Sabres Zone with him on the ice.

He is one of the few players on the team that makes Jack’s Metrics worse when they are on the ice together. 
 

Trading him for a player of Copp’s Ability improves the team