Cultural/Racial Bias and Discussion

[LTS]

9 hours ago, drnkirishone said:

And yet millions of Americans do. Amazing what popularizing a term like fake news and a political party being taken over by a cult leader can do to a national pysche

Well, sadly, I'm convinced many Americans just don't understand racism and that they in fact are racist. I'm also convinced a lot are racist and absolutely know they are and feel free to spread their views now that the leader of the country is freely slinging racist viewpoints around.

I just hope we're at the low point.  I prefer not to think on how it can get worse before it gets better.

[drnkirishone]

I am pessimistic of human nature and I refuse to believe we are at the lowest point until I see proof otherwise

[Weave]

7 hours ago, LTS said:

Well, sadly, I'm convinced many Americans just don't understand racism and that they in fact are racist. I'm also convinced a lot are racist and absolutely know they are and feel free to spread their views now that the leader of the country is freely slinging racist viewpoints around.

I just hope we're at the low point.  I prefer not to think on how it can get worse before it gets better.

The most recent Ken and Karen incident leads me to believe this will only get worse.  That is now two very public (and uncontested) incidents with armed white people brazenly challenging authority and folks that disagree with them.  
 

I don’t think a change of President will slow down that ball that has started rolling. I don’t think this ends well.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Weave

[LTS]

6 hours ago, Weave said:

The most recent Ken and Karen incident leads me to believe this will only get worse.  That is now two very public (and uncontested) incidents with armed white people brazenly challenging authority and folks that disagree with them.  
 

I don’t think a change of President will slow down that ball that has started rolling. I don’t think this ends well.

I see references to these two.. I have stopped reading the news so I don't know anything about it.  I have, admittedly, gone into my own little world where things are good.  Every time I venture outside of that little world I get angry... fast.

But yeah.. we're in for some race war inside this country.  It will not end well.

[SABRES 0311]

So this happened. Around the 15 second mark shows a close up. I cannot confirm what organization if any the shooter is with. The relative calmness, smooth muscle movement and ability to put round(s) on target in that situation leads me to believe he has training/practice.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by SABRES 0311

[Weave]

6 hours ago, LTS said:

I see references to these two.. I have stopped reading the news so I don't know anything about it.  I have, admittedly, gone into my own little world where things are good.  Every time I venture outside of that little world I get angry... fast.

But yeah.. we're in for some race war inside this country.  It will not end well.

It was an incredibly discouraging event to see.  If you haven't seen it, you're better off.  I've lost faith in the humanity present in this country.  Too many people that just want to make sure things burn.

[Ogre]

On 7/1/2020 at 11:24 PM, LTS said:

I'm convinced many Americans just don't understand racism and that they in fact are racist

Bingo!  My Mohawk heritage was acknowledged and discussed as a boy. A large part of the reason we lived how we did was because of that inherited lifestyle.

I’ve always been annoyed with the Indians/Redskins name and the depictions used in advertising of Native peoples.

My BIL is a Redskins’ fan and the conversation today lead me to the realization that my in-law family sees nothing wrong with marginalizing Native peoples. My BIL has several pieces of “art” displayed in their home using the customary derogatory imagery so in a discussion on BLM tonight I shared my history and how I felt. They looked at me like I had two heads.

Mother. *****. Shocking.

 

[drnkirishone]

sadly it is difficult to get groups to acknowledge racial issues when the entire culture was started with "this land is nice. MINE now. How about you go live in that swamp/desert!"

[Ogre]

On 7/4/2020 at 5:44 AM, drnkirishone said:

sadly it is difficult to get groups to acknowledge racial issues when the entire culture was started with "this land is nice. MINE now. How about you go live in that swamp/desert!"

A vibrant, prosperous, self-governing civilization that maintains a perfect balance to protect the resources that supports generation after generation. Is it weird that we didn’t need prisons or jails? 
 

Manifest Destiny was a manifestation of evil that was so slithering that it was lost to time and human caring. It was a genocide on an epic scale. 
 

FFW to today and most people don’t know that Andrew Jackson (as POTUS) paid for scalps. It’s portrayed that it was First Americans that were scalping whites but it was the other way around.  Dolla Billz for scalps.

The buffalo were slaughtered to starve the People to crush their will to fight and then, yup, march you off to the scrublands.

For crying out loud, the Mohawk are the Keepers of the Eastern Door and they were relegated to the poorest of land up North (pronounced more like Noort) bordering and crossing the Canadian border. 

Education is a funny thing though. You can’t teach something that doesn’t want to be learned.
 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Ogre
Pointing out that the Rez takes up the scrubland of TWO countries!

[drnkirishone]

When I was in school, the amount of education on native Americans was around 2 pages.

World origin mythology, pilgrims, resettlement, reservations.

The last 2 amounted to around a sentence or two each.

Keep in mind it was a class that lasted 1 year and it was called US history!

We didn't even learn about the whole Andrew Jackson thing from that class. It wasn't until senior year and a class that lasted one quarter called participation in government that we talked about that!

Edited July 7, 2020 by drnkirishone
Added Andrew Jackson part

[Weave]

5 hours ago, drnkirishone said:

When I was in school, the amount of education on native Americans was around 2 pages.

World origin mythology, pilgrims, resettlement, reservations.

The last 2 amounted to around a sentence or two each.

Keep in mind it was a class that lasted 1 year and it was called US history!

We didn't even learn about the whole Andrew Jackson thing from that class. It wasn't until senior year and a class that lasted one quarter called participation in government that we talked about that!

The victors are always the publishers of history.  It's a shame that we did not learn more as children about the ugly side of our history, but we're no different than any other conquerors in that respect.

[Eleven]

21 hours ago, drnkirishone said:

When I was in school, the amount of education on native Americans was around 2 pages.

World origin mythology, pilgrims, resettlement, reservations.

Did you go to school in NYS?  If so, how long ago?  I remember learning a lot about natives, and just about everyone I know who went to public school had to build a model longhouse in seventh grade.

[Eleven]

16 hours ago, Weave said:

The victors are always the publishers of history.  It's a shame that we did not learn more as children about the ugly side of our history, but we're no different than any other conquerors in that respect.

Actually, Americans and Canadians were a lot different than other conquerors in that respect.  Like the Romans, Americans and Canadians did not force the conquered cultures to either assimilate or die.  This, of course, led to other problems, which are serious problems.  But it's an approach that's only been used twice as far as I know.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

26 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Actually, Americans and Canadians were a lot different than other conquerors in that respect.  Like the Romans, Americans and Canadians did not force the conquered cultures to either assimilate or die.  This, of course, led to other problems, which are serious problems.  But it's an approach that's only been used twice as far as I know.

Really?  We stole their land and murdered pretty much all of them.  There is no authentic native culture to speak of in either country.

[Weave]

36 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Actually, Americans and Canadians were a lot different than other conquerors in that respect.  Like the Romans, Americans and Canadians did not force the conquered cultures to either assimilate or die.  This, of course, led to other problems, which are serious problems.  But it's an approach that's only been used twice as far as I know.

My post was specifically addressing the idea that conquerors write history that gets passed down, which is why the dark side of our forefathers is not well covered in schools.

[Eleven]

16 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Really?  We stole their land and murdered pretty much all of them.  There is no authentic native culture to speak of in either country.

I don't know much about what happened in Canada, but here, European descendants stole their land and forced them onto reservations and allowed their cultures to continue.

6 minutes ago, Weave said:

My post was specifically addressing the idea that conquerors write history that gets passed down, which is why the dark side of our forefathers is not well covered in schools.

Gotcha.  Somehow I learned about this stuff in school, though.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

21 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I don't know much about what happened in Canada, but here, European descendants stole their land and forced them onto reservations and allowed their cultures to continue.

Gotcha.  Somehow I learned about this stuff in school, though.

We did the same here and that's my point.  They were basically put in cages and their real cultures were caged as well.

[drnkirishone]

Nys schooling mid 90s.

To say we allowed the culture to continue is a stretch. I would say some of the culture survived.

[Eleven]

3 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

We did the same here and that's my point.  They were basically put in cages and their real cultures were caged as well.

 Now that I've read up, no, it wasn't the same.

1 hour ago, drnkirishone said:

Nys schooling mid 90s.

To say we allowed the culture to continue is a stretch. I would say some of the culture survived.

Compare it to other conquerors worldwide over time.  I think you'll find that we ddi allow cultures to survive.  Or drive to Oklahoma.  Or even through Catt County.

[Curt]

8 hours ago, Eleven said:

I don't know much about what happened in Canada, but here, European descendants stole their land and forced them onto reservations and allowed their cultures to continue.

I would guess that the number who were killed far outpaced the number who went to reservations.

I the grand scheme of things, you are probably right though, that it was less brutal than most conquerings over the past couple thousand years.

[Ogre]

Oh. My. *****. God!

Twenty ***** thousand years of peace and prosperity snuffed out! 
 

The timbers were so high that an eagle couldn’t see the Earth (that’s why he fished the seas)

Waters so full of fish that you could walk acrosst it (seen what I done there?)

The culture WAS snuffed out! 
 

That’s exactly why they were marched off to land that was unfamiliar to them. TO CRUSH THIER CULTURE. 
 

But yup. You read a couple books.

?

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, Ogre said:

Oh. My. *****. God!

Twenty ***** thousand years of peace and prosperity snuffed out! 
 

The timbers were so high that an eagle couldn’t see the Earth (that’s why he fished the seas)

Waters so full of fish that you could walk acrosst it (seen what I done there?)

The culture WAS snuffed out! 
 

That’s exactly why they were marched off to land that was unfamiliar to them. TO CRUSH THIER CULTURE. 
 

But yup. You read a couple books.

?

It's not that.

They were marched off to less desirable land, for sure.

They weren't treated like most conquered peoples throughout history, either, though.

This all happened before my grandparents came here, so there is no "white guilt" going on here.  It's just my understanding of facts, which may be flawed, but which also is informed by having a very close friend who is Cherokee and from living in Oklahoma for a few years, which is heavily native.

[Ogre]

6 minutes ago, Eleven said:

They weren't treated like most conquered peoples throughout history, either, though.

Tell me a comparable. 
 

An ENTIRE hemisphere untouched.

Tell me again how my ancestors were so fairly treated. 
 

This is the sh!t I was talking about. 
 

White right.

 

[SABRES 0311]

 

It’s gonna be interesting if groups like these two show up at the same place. Like watching bad cosplay. 

[Curt]

9 hours ago, Ogre said:

Tell me a comparable. 
 

An ENTIRE hemisphere untouched.

Tell me again how my ancestors were so fairly treated. 
 

This is the sh!t I was talking about. 
 

White right.

 

To be fair to Eleven, he did not say that the North American Native peoples were fairly treated.

The disagreement between you two seems to be the extent to which Native Peoples were able to retain their culture.  This seems to be something about which a logical discussion could take place.

You two, make your points regarding the issue at hand.  It could actually lead to a healthy discussion.