Sabres Picking 8th

[Thorny]

In 2007-08, Derek Roy finished 18th in League Scoring for the year. He finished as the 10th highest scoring centre in the league. 

51.18% face-off % to boot. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I’d agree. I’d say Vanek was a first line player, Roy a second or third liner. Max could slot anywhere in the top three lines. 

From 2005-13, Derek Roy was 18th highest-scoring centre in hockey, averaging 65 points over 80 games played. That's 8 years.

He was pretty much the definition of a good second-line centre.

Edited July 7, 2020 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

From 2005-13, Derek Roy was 18th highest-scoring centre in hockey, averaging 65 points over 80 games played. That's 8 years.

He was pretty much the definition of a good second-line centre.

Wasn't there some article by TBN criticizing DR for saying Roy and Connolly were top 2 line centers.  I think they argued that Roy was a 2C only on a bad team but a 3C on a decent team.

Give me Roy in his prime right now to center our 2nd line and we'd be in the playoffs.

Edited July 7, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

11 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Yes, or 2nd liner. Especially with a face off win % that was usually what? Around 45%?

So, Eichel is a 1st liner but only 43.7% FO.

Roy career FO% was 48.9% and he 2nd or 3rd liner, got it.

: Sarcasm at it's best :

I would say good 2nd liner.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Wasn't there some article by TBN criticizing DR for saying Roy and Connolly were top 2 line centers.  I think they argued that Roy was a 2C only on a bad team but a 3C on a decent team.

Give me Roy in his prime right now to center our 2nd line and we'd be in the playoffs.

He played in the DEL for Munchen this year, only 10gms but had 7 assists. Maybe he's available.

[LGR4GM]

53 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

So, Eichel is a 1st liner but only 43.7% FO.

Roy career FO% was 48.9% and he 2nd or 3rd liner, got it.

: Sarcasm at it's best :

I would say good 2nd liner.

Winning faceoffs doesn't really mean a whole lot. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Winning faceoffs doesn't really mean a whole lot. 

That's why the sarcasm.

[LGR4GM]

Roy was a good or very good 2nd line center. Again this team doesn't have the wing depth to produce a 50pt 3rd line center IMPO. 

[SwampD]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Wasn't there some article by TBN criticizing DR for saying Roy and Connolly were top 2 line centers.  I think they argued that Roy was a 2C only on a bad team but a 3C on a decent team.

Give me Roy in his prime right now to center our 2nd line and we'd be in the playoffs.

I think he said something like we had 2 top 20 centers.

[Weave]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

I think he said something like we had 2 top 20 centers.

That is how I remember it as well.  It was wishful thinking, and thus worthy of the criticism it received.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

17 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Correct. An article about 06-07:

”Miller ended up with 40 wins that year and the team was also led by co-captains Briere (95 points) and Drury (37 goals), and a formidable third line consisting of Vanek (43 goals), Afinogenov (61 points in 56 games) and center Derek Roy (42 assists).“

43 goals on the 3rd line. That’s just insane. 

That team was stacked.  Bad luck and injuries ended their season 1 series win early.  I have very little doubt that the 05/06 Sabres would have beaten the Oilers in the final quite easily.  It is hard to say if the 05/06 or the 79/80 Sabres were the best shot at winning a cup.

In 06/07 the team was the same and also was stacked and ran through the regular season.  Something was not right when the playoffs started and one could feel that it was not going to happen.

17 hours ago, Thorny said:

A healthy iteration of the Sabrres roster during the 05-06 playoffs is the best team this franchise has ever iced, don't care what anyone says. That third line is a first line, and the best third line we've ever seen around here, by far. 

The Sabres were the best, and deepest roster in the league that year and I'm not sure that's ever been the case otherwise. 

This is a reasonable take and the only team close was the 79/80 team.  Hard to say which was better.  Very close.  Both lost in dramatic fashion in the semi-final to the eventual cup winner.  In 05/06 injuries finished them and in 79/80 they did not have their Butch, or Denis.

[dudacek]

18 hours ago, Thorny said:

A healthy iteration of the Sabrres roster during the 05-06 playoffs is the best team this franchise has ever iced, don't care what anyone says. That third line is a first line, and the best third line we've ever seen around here, by far. 

The Sabres were the best, and deepest roster in the league that year and I'm not sure that's ever been the case otherwise. 

The ‘75 team finished first overall with 113 points, without any OT freebies - that’s a .706 win %

It scored 354 goals, 2nd in the league. It was 6th in goals against with 240.

It had the 7th, 9th and 10th highest scoring players in the league, despite the fact Perreault and Martin each missed 12 games.

40 NHL players scored 30 goals that year. Six of them were Sabres. Robert had 40. Martin was 3rd in the league with 52. Nine Sabres scored 22 or more goals.

They didn’t have analytics back then, but Don Luce was +61 and Craig Ramsay +51. Hajt, Korab, Schoenfeld, Gare, Dudley, Guevremont were all top 35 in the NHL in +/-

Schoenfeld, Korab, Dudley, Gare and Spencer could battle with any of the bullies of the era.

And that team went to the finals

06 was a great team, but the only spot they come out as clearly better over 75 was in goal.

Edited July 7, 2020 by dudacek

[Sabres Fan in NS]

40 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The ‘75 team finished first overall with 113 points, without any OT freebies - that’s a .706 win %

It scored 354 goals, 2nd in the league. It was 6th in goals against with 240.

It had the 7th, 9th and 10th highest scoring players in the league, despite the fact Perreault and Martin each missed 12 games.

40 NHL players scored 30 goals that year. Six of them were Sabres. Robert had 40. Martin was 3rd in the league with 52. Nine Sabres scored 22 or more goals.

They didn’t have analytics back then, but Don Luce was +61 and Craig Ramsay +51. Hajt, Korab, Schoenfeld, Gare, Dudley, Guevremont were all top 35 in the NHL in +/-

Schoenfeld, Korab, Dudley, Gare and Spencer could battle with any of the bullies of the era.

And that team went to the finals

06 was a great team, but the only spot they come out as clearly better over 75 was in goal.

'75 was the most talented.  They would have won the cup if not for Bernie.

I do not believe that the '75 team was the 'best' iced.  The 05/06 team was better balanced all round.  79/80 was more balanced and the last kick at it with the Connection intact.

That said, different eras and different games, so it is hard to do a straight up comparison.

[Thorny]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

The ‘75 team finished first overall with 113 points, without any OT freebies - that’s a .706 win %

It scored 354 goals, 2nd in the league. It was 6th in goals against with 240.

It had the 7th, 9th and 10th highest scoring players in the league, despite the fact Perreault and Martin each missed 12 games.

40 NHL players scored 30 goals that year. Six of them were Sabres. Robert had 40. Martin was 3rd in the league with 52. Nine Sabres scored 22 or more goals.

They didn’t have analytics back then, but Don Luce was +61 and Craig Ramsay +51. Hajt, Korab, Schoenfeld, Gare, Dudley, Guevremont were all top 35 in the NHL in +/-

Schoenfeld, Korab, Dudley, Gare and Spencer could battle with any of the bullies of the era.

And that team went to the finals

06 was a great team, but the only spot they come out as clearly better over 75 was in goal.

Were they the best team in the league though? I'm factoring in the relativity, as I alluded to. 

The Sabres were the best team in the league in '06.

Head to head arguments are so difficult. The Hasek team might win, in all honestly. The only season I know of where the Buffalo Sabres were, in my estimation, truly the *best* team in the league, that year, all else being equal - is 05-06. 

But I was actually asking, was the perception around '75, among Sabres fans, that the better team lost? It's pretty widely agreed, from what I've seen, in Sabres lore that the Cup was ours if not for those D injuries. 

Hope that clarifies/explains it better, could have been clearer the first time. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

On 7/6/2020 at 8:30 PM, dudacek said:

From 2005-13, Derek Roy was 18th highest-scoring centre in hockey, averaging 65 points over 80 games played. That's 8 years.

He was pretty much the definition of a good second-line centre.

Ya, that's what I said..

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Were they the best team in the league though? I'm factoring in the relativity, as I alluded to. 

The Sabres were the best team in the league in '06.

Head to head arguments are so difficult. The Hasek team might win, in all honestly. The only season I know of where the Buffalo Sabres were, in my estimation, truly the *best* team in the league, that year, all else being equal - is 05-06. 

But I was actually asking, was the perception around '75, among Sabres fans, that the better team lost? It's pretty widely agreed, from what I've seen, in Sabres lore that the Cup was ours if not for those D injuries. 

Hope that clarifies/explains it better, could have been clearer the first time. 

I think most Sabres fans would agree the Sabres were the best team in 75 if you took away the goaltending.

I’d also say that the 75 Flyers and 75 Habs were far better competition than any team the Sabres faced in 06.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think most Sabres fans would agree the Sabres were the best team in 75 if you took away the goaltending.

I’d also say that the 75 Flyers and 75 Habs were far better competition than any team the Sabres faced in 06.

Those pesky goaltenders are a part of the team, though, in the end. 

People say the Sabres were the best team in '06, full stop, short of the extenuating circumstances. The second part though, again, for my point of view in this case I am choosing to factor in strength of team relative to rest of the league, and not looking at it as team A v team B on paper. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Those pesky goaltenders are a part of the team, though, in the end. 

People say the Sabres were the best team in '06, full stop, short of the extenuating circumstances. 

Those depth defencemen are part of the team as well, and injuries are part of hockey.

If Crozier had been healthy would he have made the difference?

Both teams have what-ifs. 75 got better results in the regular season and the playoffs. Remember, the 06 team finished 14 points behind Detroit in the regular season.

Edited July 8, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Those depth defencemen are part of the team as well, and injuries are part of hockey.

If Crozier had been healthy would he have made the difference?

Both teams have what-ifs. 75 got better results in the regular season and the playoffs. Remember, the 06 team finished 14 points behind Detroit in the regular season.

You can try and twist my argument all you want but my point stands - a *healthy* iteration of the 05-06 team was the best team in the league. Can't really say that with any other team, in my view. The team being healthy is important to my original point. 

I'm not saying both teams don't have what ifs, that was never my argument. What I am saying, merely my opinion, is that if you REMOVE those what ifs, the 05-06 Sabres are, beyond MY reasonable doubt, the best team in the league that season, and I don't personally see another team I can say that for.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

You can try and twist my argument all you want but my point stands - a healthy iteration of the 05-06 team was the best team in the league. Can't really say that with any other team. 

Why not? 75 was better offensively and defensively and in the standings in the regular season. Like 06, it beat its biggest competitor (Montreal instead of Ottawa) in a playoff showdown.  It went farther in the playoffs. It ended up matched up against the best team form the other side in the final and lost in a coin flip.Not only are you hand waving the fact the Sabres lost to Carolina, you are also ignoring the question of whether they were actually better than the real best team in the West, Detroit.

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Why not? 75 was better offensively and defensively and in the standings in the regular season. Like 06, it beat its biggest competitor (Montreal instead of Ottawa) in a playoff showdown.  It went farther in the playoffs. It ended up matched up against the best team form the other side in the final and lost in a coin flip.Not only are you hand waving the fact the Sabres lost to Carolina, you are also ignoring the question of whether they were actually better than the real best team in the West, Detroit.

Again, I'm trying to make my position clear, the bolded does not factor in to my criteria. 

That the 75 team finished higher in the standings, relative to the rest of the league, than the '06 Sabres did, relative to the league, in their year, bares weight but not enough for me, considering how often the standings don't actually correlate to playoff success, and the fact that, the Sabres team that finished the '06 regular season was playing a TON different than the team that started that season - and the standings/schedule bear that out. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

Again, I'm trying to make my position clear, the bolded does not factor in to my criteria. 

What’s not clear is why the Sabres were the best team in the league that year.

[Thorny]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

What’s not clear is why the Sabres were the best team in the league that year.

Well, I know they were better than Carolina because we were up a goal in the 3rd period of game 7 minus all the players we were. My opinion is we'd have beat Edmonton. It's so hard to say with matchups, like I alluded to earlier, but Edmonton was roughly equal to Carolina (my perception at the time/now) and, like I said, I'm confident we were better than Carolina was with both teams being healthy. That's my view - I think we were not insignificantly better than them. 

If we are opening these things up to debate at all, and not just saying the team that won the cup is ipso facto the best team (many/most would leave it just at that), it's never going to be clear who the best team is, in an objective sense, as there'd be no such thing, no universally accepted criteria. 

To me, the 05-06 team is the one with the best argument to the phrase, "we were the actual best team in the league that year". 

"Actual", is, sadly, going to have to be a part of that until we achieve a real Cup.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[Marvin]

As I stated elsewhere, the 1974-5 team had a weakness in goal.  Roger Crozier's various ailments limited him to 23 games, a 17-2-1 record, and a 0.905 save percentage.  Gary Bromley was noticeably worse with a 0.873 save percentage.  Those Sabres won by running teams out of the rink.   This is also why the Sabres got Gerry Desjardins -- only for him to turn in one of the worst performances in the Stanley Cup Final ever.

At the time, no Sabres fan feared the Canadiens the way we feared the Flyers and Bruins.  With the beginning of the hook-and-hold, we correctly believed that the Sabres' speed and skill would be neutralised  by the bigger, rougher, less skilled teams -- we had seen them clutch-and-grab their way to the Finals the year before.  Even so, the Sabres were in a 3-way tie for 1st overall with the Flyers and Habs; the Flyers got #1 on tie-breaks.  In that day, there were clearly 5 teams that were way better than everyone else: Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, Philadelphia. LA in 1974-5, and Lung Oisland  for 1976-80.  The Chicago Black Hawks were no slouches either in the first round.

Had Crozier been able to play a little more, it is reasonable to assume that the Sabres would have been 1st overall.  That meant drawing an up-and-coming Islanders team that the Sabres had handled easily during the season.  Meanwhile, the Flyers were more terrified of the Canadiens than they were of the Sabres.  Assuming both series go to form, the Sabres would have faced the Canadiens in the Finals with home ice advantage.  Sabres in 6.

You need this kind of information to analyse the Sabres teams from 1973-85 (no, that;s not a typo).  Excellence was expected; we kept losing to very good teams, but we always had hope that "we're gonna win that Cup."

[WildCard]

Is there still no word on when the NHL draft takes place? I'm guessing September at this point