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Kim explains how she and Terry pick coaches

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It's starting to feel like piling on, but if she wants to keep offering seasonal, organic word salads topped with corporate buzz words...

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The focus rarely is on the strategic aspects of the game. She considers a deep understanding of Xs and Os to be a given.

She said what she and her husband look for are the intangibles, with an emphasis on how genuine a candidate comes across.

“It’s the authenticity of who you are, if you’re presenting something and we feel like it’s really you presenting and not some kind of flashy screen that your agent put together … if it’s real stories from you,” Pegula said. “Leadership is about being authentic of who you are. We may not always agree on everything or the points of how one leads is better than another. But I think we all want to have a real, authentic relationship with each other, and I think that speaks volumes.”

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/24/buffalo-bills-buffalo-sabres-kim-pegula-sean-mcdermott-jason-botterill-nfl-football-nhl-hockey/

So... "Pegula People." A lot to unpack in this article, even in just that one quote. I'll start with why don't the Pegulas let their GMs hire their own coaches? GMs might be interested in the nuances of pesky little things like coaching strategies and X's and O's.

This is actually quite a development, even if Brawndo had the Pegulas pegged to the Housley hire a while back. It's confirmation, anyway. The Trial thread is redeemed, once again.

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3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's starting to feel like piling on, but if she wants to keep offering seasonal, organic word salads topped with corporate buzz words...

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/24/buffalo-bills-buffalo-sabres-kim-pegula-sean-mcdermott-jason-botterill-nfl-football-nhl-hockey/

So... "Pegula People." A lot to unpack in this article, even in just that one quote. I'll start with why don't the Pegulas let their GMs hire their own coaches? GMs might be interested in the nuances of pesky little things like coaching strategies and X's and O's.

This is actually quite a development, even if Brawndo had the Pegulas pegged to the Housley hire a while back. It's confirmation, anyway. The Trial thread is redeemed, once again.

All of these continued shots would indicate there is a right way to make these hires when, in fact, history has proven it’s just a shot in the dark.

There is still no proven way to hire coaches and general managers. Experienced guys fail, non-experienced guys, communicators, teachers, cutting edge, analytical, old school, it really doesn’t matter. 
 

I understand the skepticism and the hand wringing but the biggest difference between the Pegulas and other owners is an acceptance of paying off contracts and keep trying. They could have left someone in charge longer, eventually made the playoffs and never contend. 

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7 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's starting to feel like piling on, but if she wants to keep offering seasonal, organic word salads topped with corporate buzz words...

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/24/buffalo-bills-buffalo-sabres-kim-pegula-sean-mcdermott-jason-botterill-nfl-football-nhl-hockey/

So... "Pegula People." A lot to unpack in this article, even in just that one quote. I'll start with why don't the Pegulas let their GMs hire their own coaches? GMs might be interested in the nuances of pesky little things like coaching strategies and X's and O's.

This is actually quite a development, even if Brawndo had the Pegulas pegged to the Housley hire a while back. It's confirmation, anyway. The Trial thread is redeemed, once again.

Except that the article doesn't say this.

Why do I think you will will from now on repeatedly claim that "the Pegulas said they don't let their GMs hire their coaches" based on this article?

Again:  spin plus repetition does not equal fact.

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15 minutes ago, tom webster said:

All of these continued shots would indicate there is a right way to make these hires when, in fact, history has proven it’s just a shot in the dark.

There is still no proven way to hire coaches and general managers. Experienced guys fail, non-experienced guys, communicators, teachers, cutting edge, analytical, old school, it really doesn’t matter. 
 

I understand the skepticism and the hand wringing but the biggest difference between the Pegulas and other owners is an acceptance of paying off contracts and keep trying. They could have left someone in charge longer, eventually made the playoffs and never contend. 

Other owners don't eat contracts?

I would agree to some extent with the "crap shoot" theory. But are you contending a GM wouldn't have a better chance at making a good hire than an owner?

14 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Except that the article doesn't say this.

Why do I think you will will from now on repeatedly claim that "the Pegulas said they don't let their GMs hire their coaches" based on this article?

Again:  spin plus repetition does not equal fact.

Why do I think you were on the OJ jury?

Edited by PASabreFan
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I’m tired of talking about the Pegulas.

They’re no different than the successful corporate exec who chucks off the suit to pursue a dream of running a small town book store or fishing lodge and discovers it’s not a bucolic walk in the park, it’s a job, and one they really know nothing about.

But they’re passionate about it and they’re going to be all in until they get it right. They aren't going to change, but hopefully they can learn, and they aren’t going anywhere.

All we can hope for is they will eventual bumble their way into the right formula.

Let’s see if it’s Ralph and Kevyn.

Edited by dudacek
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34 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Other owners don't eat contracts?

I would agree to some extent with the "crap shoot" theory. But are you contending a GM wouldn't have a better chance at making a good hire than an owner?

Why do I think you were on the OJ jury?

Actually I am contending, especially in hockey, that a GM isn’t more likely to make a good hire. In fact, I think I could put together a position hire showing that a GM is more then likely to miss.

 

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1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I’m tired of talking about the Pegulas.

They’re no different than the successful corporate exec who chucks off the suit to pursue a dream of running a small town book store or fishing lodge and discovers it’s not a bucolic walk in the park, it’s a job, and one they really know nothing about.

But they’re passionate about it and they’re going to be all in until they get it right. They aren't going to change, but hopefully they can learn, and they aren’t going anywhere.

All we can hope for is they will eventual bumble their way into the right formula.

Let’s see if it’s Ralph and Kevyn.

The Packers were being run as a business, by committee, and hiring legacy players as coaches (some inexperienced: Starr) and some experienced (Gregg), and devolved into a laughingstock along the way despite some really talented players. This lasted 20 years, so we're only halfway there. Finally, a new President rose up and said enough (Bob Harlan). He'd been there all along (like GM Kheevyn) and got his chance and broke the system. No more committee and beloved coach/GM. Instead, football was run by a long-term "football" guy. And Harlan/committee focused on stadium renovations and keeping the franchise viable within the league. The GM (Ron Wolf) went from respected football guy with the Raiders to a HOF-level GM.

I don't understand the owner hiring the coach and hiring the GM separately. It's a partnership, not a pairing. One has to find the other. (Note: The Coach can get hired first as well, like here in Seattle with Carroll, then he picked a GM in Schneider; or in Buffalo with McDemott working with Beane for years beforehand, but the owner running those two positions independently doesn't make sense.)

In modern sports, there's only one guy who is coach/GM and does it well, and it's at least in part because he has no soul and cuts ties with players a year early rather than too late, no matter what they've done for him.

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29 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

The Packers were being run as a business, by committee, and hiring legacy players as coaches (some inexperienced: Starr) and some experienced (Gregg), and devolved into a laughingstock along the way despite some really talented players. This lasted 20 years, so we're only halfway there. Finally, a new President rose up and said enough (Bob Harlan). He'd been there all along (like GM Kheevyn) and got his chance and broke the system. No more committee and beloved coach/GM. Instead, football was run by a long-term "football" guy. And Harlan/committee focused on stadium renovations and keeping the franchise viable within the league. The GM (Ron Wolf) went from respected football guy with the Raiders to a HOF-level GM.

I don't understand the owner hiring the coach and hiring the GM separately. It's a partnership, not a pairing. One has to find the other. (Note: The Coach can get hired first as well, like here in Seattle with Carroll, then he picked a GM in Schneider; or in Buffalo with McDemott working with Beane for years beforehand, but the owner running those two positions independently doesn't make sense.)

In modern sports, there's only one guy who is coach/GM and does it well, and it's at least in part because he has no soul and cuts ties with players a year early rather than too late, no matter what they've done for him.

I'll say this. As far as Siths go, you're one of the good ones.

Does today's article shed any light on how Jeff Skinner ended up playing on the second line, second PP unit and rarely in OT under RaKru?

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22 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I'll say this. As far as Siths go, you're one of the good ones.

Does today's article shed any light on how Jeff Skinner ended up playing on the second line, second PP unit and rarely in OT under RaKru?

The article does not. It's more about how the Pegulas are comfortable with a coach being real and unassuming during the interview process, not flashy/polished. From the article, they liked how McDermott had a notebook instead of a slick PowerPoint. And I can see why they'd like GMTM's brash/directness in the same light. Those feel real to them. The article pointedly notes that they avoid the Xs and Os aspects because they don't know them and those should be a given with a coach.

Of course, a (my) counterargument would be --- the GM and coach need to be in agreement on the Xs and Os to an extent as well. They need to trust that they're getting the right players and styles. A good coach can mold players, but a poor fit of player can undo a good coach as well. Having a third party in charge of those decisions negates that GM/coach partnership. Like Leino being signed as a center. Or forcing Ehrhoff to be a #1 D-man. 

As to Skinner on the second line: Line combinations are a mystery as great as the Moulson/Ehrhoff. It's a lot of simple tricks and nonsense. But when you find it, you go with it (GLO). No OT is a little less worrying because it's rarer and they more-or-less double shift Eichel and Skinner may be able to skate beautifully but might not be so good in space defensively. What's more alarming is the unwillingness to adapt when Skinner wasn't performing. Especially when Olofsson got hurt. We all figured Skinner-Eichel-Reinhart would join forces when Olofsson went down and it never happened. By the time Olofsson (and Ullmark) got back, it was over. In short, RaKru's combinations don't bother me -- he and his coaches attend practices and see what works/what doesn't. But there needs to be the willingness to adapt. Ruff would constantly change his combinations (to our chagrin and concern), and in-game his (and his fellow coaches') adjustments won us a lot of games.

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1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

The Packers were being run as a business, by committee, and hiring legacy players as coaches (some inexperienced: Starr) and some experienced (Gregg), and devolved into a laughingstock along the way despite some really talented players. This lasted 20 years, so we're only halfway there. Finally, a new President rose up and said enough (Bob Harlan). He'd been there all along (like GM Kheevyn) and got his chance and broke the system. No more committee and beloved coach/GM. Instead, football was run by a long-term "football" guy. And Harlan/committee focused on stadium renovations and keeping the franchise viable within the league. The GM (Ron Wolf) went from respected football guy with the Raiders to a HOF-level GM.

I don't understand the owner hiring the coach and hiring the GM separately. It's a partnership, not a pairing. One has to find the other. (Note: The Coach can get hired first as well, like here in Seattle with Carroll, then he picked a GM in Schneider; or in Buffalo with McDemott working with Beane for years beforehand, but the owner running those two positions independently doesn't make sense.)

In modern sports, there's only one guy who is coach/GM and does it well, and it's at least in part because he has no soul and cuts ties with players a year early rather than too late, no matter what they've done for him.

It also helps that they lucked into a trade for one of the greatest, and most marketable, QBs of All-Time, and my favourite athlete, the legend, number 4. 

Edited by Thorny
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15 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

In short, RaKru's combinations don't bother me -- he and his coaches attend practices and see what works/what doesn't. But there needs to be the willingness to adapt. Ruff would constantly change his combinations (to our chagrin and concern), and in-game his (and his fellow coaches') adjustments won us a lot of games.

Aside from the special teams, line combos was one of the things I struggled with the most when it came to Ralph. Even if one wants to argue for splitting up the forward depth we had among different lines, Skinner should have been paired with Jack far earlier if only to jump start his confidence. Everyone knows goal scorers are streaky - get him going. I'd argue he should have been with Eichel as ES regardless - their metrics were really good together as far as a I know and they were not so good with Olofsson there. I'd have tried Reinhart on his own line instead of Skinner. Then there was the ridiculous business with Second Line Sobotka. Ristolainen's usage going up and his metrics going down. Miller struggling to get into the line-up. 

By no means did it sour me on him, but I hope once we get a little more talent in there he shows himself to be a little more fluid. 

At the very least, is it too much to ask for that the GM and coach are on the same page when it comes to how to utilize the lineup? Botterill and Krueger did not seem to be, especially with Skinner. Why was that allowed to be the case? Do you think they checked to see if Krueger's vision was in line with Adams when they brought Adams in?

Edited by Thorny

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Yeah, I'm not seeing this as anything groundbreaking. I presume that all owners sign off on the hiring of their coaches, and further presume that the sign-off involves them meeting with the candidates and getting their own feel for them (i.e., whether they are authentic people).

Are the Pegulas more involved in the process of hiring a head coach than other owners? Almost assuredly so, but I think we already knew that based on prior conversations (deliberations) here.

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11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It also helps that they lucked into a trade for one of the greatest, and most marketable, QBs of All-Time, and my favourite athlete, the legend, number 4. 

In my experience there's no such thing as luck. 🍺

Quote aside, because I don't want to turn the thread aside from its intent, I'll sum up. His durability and gamesmanship and story (car crash, removed intestine, recovery, rehab, recovery) and just plain enjoyment/"love" of the game are legendary. He himself was a total project. And Wolf knew that. Wolf traded a 1st round pick for a 2nd round QB who had thrown 4 passes in the NFL. 2 INTs (how Favrian!) and one of those a pick-six.

But Wolf knew Favre was a player because he'd been scouting and in personnel for 30 years. He had done a two-year stint with the Jets and Favre would've been their pick if Atlanta hadn't taken him. And even more to the point --- Wolf's first coach was Holmgren. Holmgren who'd been Montana and Young's QB coach and then OC. Who'd taken Young from "running for your life" to Young the accurate passer who still could kill you with his legs. And (personal opinion) Favre is nothing without Holmgren's coaching in those first few years. That plus Mariucci and Andy Reid. (Jon Gruden talks a bunch like he was, but he never was Favre's QB coach, just a tape-crunching Quality Control and I think Wide Receivers for a year.) End Favre chat.

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No more rocket balls please. 

...wait wait wait...leave him out there. 

Edited by Thorny
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1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

 

Does today's article shed any light on how Jeff Skinner ended up playing on the second line, second PP unit and rarely in OT under RaKru?

Why Ralph stuck with this is certainly debatable.

But why it happened is no great mystery. Rightly or wrongly Ralph doesn’t trust Jeff 5-on-5 or 3-on-3 because he’s not a great passer and he cheats defensively. The guy has never been a plus player in his NHL career. Ralph also thinks Jeff is the second-most likely player on the team to create offence on his own and therefore his best choice to anchor a second line.

As far as the PP goes, go back and watch what Jeff did in the first two months of the year on PP1. He was a passenger who played himself off the unit.

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17 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Yeah, I'm not seeing this as anything groundbreaking. I presume that all owners sign off on the hiring of their coaches, and further presume that the sign-off involves them meeting with the candidates and getting their own feel for them (i.e., whether they are authentic people).

Are the Pegulas more involved in the process of hiring a head coach than other owners? Almost assuredly so, but I think we already knew that based on prior conversations (deliberations) here.

Nothing groundbreaking. But the GM and coach have different end goals (longer-term vs. immediate season), so they're best when one hires/finds the other. When they're both reporting independently to the owner, or the owner is flipping one or the other every couple years... it's maddening for us.

This is speculation: but it makes perfect sense given the Pegula Way: It's like Rolston. Good coach for kids. He sold the Pegulas on Sabres University. But would GMTM have hired Rolston? Not a chance.

This is why they're so "communication" driven, but they're the ones faulting up the communication with their structure and capriciousness. 

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10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Why Ralph stuck with this is certainly debatable.

But why it happened is no great mystery. Rightly or wrongly Ralph doesn’t trust Jeff 5-on-5 or 3-on-3 because he’s not a great passer and he cheats defensively. The guy has never been a plus player in his NHL career. Ralph also thinks Jeff is the second-most likely player on the team to create offence on his own and therefore his best choice to anchor a second line.

As far as the PP goes, go back and watch what Jeff did in the first two months of the year on PP1. He was a passenger who played himself off the unit.

Agree with all this but I sure hope the bolded didn't factor in. Neither had even Jack before this year. 

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4 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m tired of talking about the Pegulas.

They’re no different than the successful corporate exec who chucks off the suit to pursue a dream of running a small town book store or fishing lodge and discovers it’s not a bucolic walk in the park, it’s a job, and one they really know nothing about.

But they’re passionate about it and they’re going to be all in until they get it right. They aren't going to change, but hopefully they can learn, and they aren’t going anywhere.

All we can hope for is they will eventual bumble their way into the right formula.

Let’s see if it’s Ralph and Kevyn.

Guess this is where I'm at.

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50 minutes ago, Thorny said:

At the very least, is it too much to ask for that the GM and coach are on the same page when it comes to how to utilize the lineup? Botterill and Krueger did not seem to be, especially with Skinner. Why was that allowed to be the case? Do you think they checked to see if Krueger's vision was in line with Adams when they brought Adams in?

No, it isn't. But it starts at the top and the owner giving them the book to be on the same page with --- and then stepping to the side and letting them do the rest of the writing.

To the last question: I sure hope so. I hope that Adams and Krueger were hip-to-hip when Adams was on that extended trip/assessment and forming a HiveMind. Because if they weren't... then RaKru is the next out the door, and then the Pegulas are going to hire the coach, not Adams. And then Adam is going to be out, not the coach, and back and forth, und so weiter und so weiter. And... eventually, I'll slowly gain more and more interest in this new Seattle franchise that doesn't exist yet. 

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1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

Nothing groundbreaking. But the GM and coach have different end goals (longer-term vs. immediate season), so they're best when one hires/finds the other. When they're both reporting independently to the owner, or the owner is flipping one or the other every couple years... it's maddening for us.

This is speculation: but it makes perfect sense given the Pegula Way: It's like Rolston. Good coach for kids. He sold the Pegulas on Sabres University. But would GMTM have hired Rolston? Not a chance.

This is why they're so "communication" driven, but they're the ones faulting up the communication with their structure and capriciousness. 

I had no idea we were such allies! I'll be in this saucer on the left and you can be in that flying slingshot thingy on the right.

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2 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Yeah, I'm not seeing this as anything groundbreaking. I presume that all owners sign off on the hiring of their coaches, and further presume that the sign-off involves them meeting with the candidates and getting their own feel for them (i.e., whether they are authentic people).

Are the Pegulas more involved in the process of hiring a head coach than other owners? Almost assuredly so, but I think we already knew that based on prior conversations (deliberations) here.

This doesn't sound like a normal sign-off. This sounds like the GM signs off on the owners' decision.

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2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Why Ralph stuck with this is certainly debatable.

But why it happened is no great mystery. Rightly or wrongly Ralph doesn’t trust Jeff 5-on-5 or 3-on-3 because he’s not a great passer and he cheats defensively. The guy has never been a plus player in his NHL career. Ralph also thinks Jeff is the second-most likely player on the team to create offence on his own and therefore his best choice to anchor a second line.

As far as the PP goes, go back and watch what Jeff did in the first two months of the year on PP1. He was a passenger who played himself off the unit.

The larger question was how a coach who views the second-highest paid player so differently than the GM gets hired in the first place. That's the disconnect.

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7 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

The larger question was how a coach who views the second-highest paid player so differently than the GM gets hired in the first place. That's the disconnect.

Will you be citing the TBN article as "proof" that TP hired RK over JB's wishes?  After all, the article doesn't say that, either.

This trial is a mockery of a miscarriage of a sham.

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16 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Will you be citing the TBN article as "proof" that TP hired RK over JB's wishes?  After all, the article doesn't say that, either.

This trial is a mockery of a miscarriage of a sham.

Perhaps in target depending on the accusation, but not in useful facts.

His point about Skinner is accurate. It's hilariously incompetent how the situation was handled. Play him with Jack, bump up his $ to the highest possible levels, hire a coach who doesn't like him?

 

Edited by Thorny

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24 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Will you be citing the TBN article as "proof" that TP hired RK over JB's wishes?  After all, the article doesn't say that, either.

This trial is a mockery of a miscarriage of a sham.

It's never going to be that cut and dry. There's not going to be a picture of Terry standing over the lifeless body of Sabretooth holding a bloody knife. Of course, even then you'd claim Terry could have merely been the one to remove the knife in an attempt to save 'tooth's life.

You're only disagreeing because you can't stand the idea of agreeing with me or are too proud to admit you were wrong. Terry confessed in 2013-ish and Kim just today. What more do you need to see?

It's funny though. Kim was never put on trial when clearly she should have been. The whole picture is emerging, which is good. She had a lot of people fooled with her, "I go to the business side and Terry goes to the GM side" quote. Tim Murray's slur is starting to make a lot more sense. At first I wondered why he'd be that upset at the paint choice in the trainer's room.

Edited by PASabreFan

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