Why did the Pegulas need the NHL's help anyway?

[PASabreFan]

I think it deserves a call-out thread because it goes to the heart of a lot of what's been wrong with their ownership.

When the Pegulas had to fire Tim Murray, citing lack of communication skills among other issues, Terry said, this time, he'd be fully involved in the new hire. (He claimed he wasn't overly involved in Murray's hiring.) One can imagine the meeting of Terry, Kim and team president Russ Brandon to discuss GMTM's replacement. With the organizational depth chart limited to those three, where else would they turn but to the NHL offices for advice?

Why was the executive bench so short? Brandon, a non-hockey guy, had replaced Ted Black, who had been a highly capable former vice president of the Pens. Ken Sawyer, brought in by Black to be a special advisor, had been CFO of the league for 14 years before serving in the same capacity to save the bankrupt Pens, then becoming CEO to help the Pens become a powerhouse, one with a sparkling new arena to boot. That Sawyer was also long gone.

There was no hockey president to rely on, as the LaFontaine experiment had quickly fizzled. Craig Patrick? Have they even found the body yet? (Spoiler alert: grain silo.) Battista! was a joke here, but he's yet another adviser they brought in who didn't make it — the official reason he left was that he was tired of driving down 219 on the weekends and having to pass the monstrous oil refinery in Bradford (or maybe it was the monstrous-smelling paper plant in Johnsonburg) on the way home to Happy Valley.

Terry. Kim. Russ.

Before firing Botterill, of course, the situation was even more dire, with Kim having named herself president after Brandon's dismissal.

Terry. Kim. It turned into the episode of Impractical Jokers where two of the jokers were locked in an overheated basement room with a rotary phone their only way of selling a turquoise ring and thus winning their freedom. Before they could quickly die of dehydration, Kim remembered Kevyn's number, and here we are.

The NHL and other "hockey people" were easy scapegoats, but let's remember why the Pegulas needed the hiring assistance in the first place. It's not a fluke that so many good hockey people didn't stick around. Terry's conception of the front office is that he centers a line with the GM (and the odd adviser/team president) on his left and the coach on his right. It's dysfunctional and in no way a standard operating practice in the league that's needed because there's so much money involved these days (involvement need not lead to meddling). Moreso, it's offensive to anyone who's actually been in the business for decades, including the three former GMs. (I've never believed Darcy was fired for cause, but instead got a golden parachute.)

The Pegulas might be saved by Ralph Krueger and a lucky hire in Adams.

If not, there's only one scenario left. Kruegams follow all the others out the door, and Terry and Kim are left in the bunker under the streets of Berlin with a panting German Shepherd in the corner and no one left to call.

Copyright 2020

pasf

 

[dudacek]

There is no doubt the Pegulas are hands-on.

But how unique is the level of Pegulameddles? And how much is the perception a function of lack of franchise success? I’m asking because I honestly don’t know. I don’t follow other franchises’ gossip enough.

From the talk in this market, the Aqualinis are similarly handsy, but nastier and more capricious than our benevolent doofuses.

Katz in Edmonton was allegedly a wide-eyed fanboi who got led around by the nose by an incompetent Kevin Lowe and the Oilers old boys.

Dundon in Carolina was portrayed as a maverick cheapskate who forced a lot of unconventional practices on his staff and was going to scare off qualified people. He settled for Waddell, supposedly a punch line.

Im thinking the key component might be less the level of ownership interference and more the competence of the GM and his ability to manage up.

Edited June 21, 2020 by dudacek

[Curt]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Im thinking the key component might be less the level of ownership and interference and more the competence of the GM and his ability to manage up.

This sounds plausible.  There certainly are other (successful even) owners who regularly impose themselves into the hockey decisions.  Since Adams has already risen through the organization as a Pegula favorite, he should do a good enough job of managing up.  Now we just need him to competently manage the hockey departments.............

[PerreaultForever]

Would it be wrong to suggest that the Pegulas, and that's really Kim Pegula it seems, simply do not understand hockey? Maybe they understand business, that's not for me to say, but this sort of disconnect from hockey people started way back at the beginning with  the  LaFontaine situation. Kim's vision was not his, and that was that. Then, as a fan,  one wonders why new people are always inexperienced rookies. Could that perhaps simply be because veteran hockey people can't be controlled the same way as these neophytes and if or when they say no, not going to do that, out the door they go cause nobody says no to Kim Pegula.

There is a ton of finger pointing and blaming. So called failures to communicate, or we weren't being listened to, or bad information, but nowhere do I hear a single word that says we, the Pegulas, hired the wrong people, and our vision has failed. No responsibility, and not the tiniest possible thought, that maybe, just maybe, they don't know how to build a winning hockey team and should let experienced people who do run the show. 

This is a disaster a decade in the making, and if they don't look in the mirror soon, this ship will continue to keep smashing into the same rocks until it sinks, if it hasn't already. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Running a sports team is not like running other businesses.

Let's face up to the facts ... we can do it.  Is Terry good at running a business, or did he invest well and get lucky in where he rolled the dice in drilling wells?  Maybe a bit of both, but I would say that he became very wealth due to his lucky gamble that paid off, more than any great business smarts.

They needed the NHL to help them out because, as @PerreaultForever correctly IMO pointed out, they know nothing about hockey and running a hockey team.  They trusted who they felt knew this stuff.  It has not worked out.  My feeling is that it will with RaKru.  KA will be fine too, but I really have to believe that Ralphie is running the show here.

[Pimlach]

According to Harrington’s latest article,  NHL Execs are not happy with the Hockey Operations situation in Buffalo.  I don’t know what help the league can provide?  
 

Black, Sawyer, Patrick, LaFontaine, etc - did they listen to these guys?   Murray and Botterill did not get four years and the perception around the league is they took on major 4-5 year very extensive rebuilds. 

The Pegula’s seem to not want help these days.  They hired someone (Adams) they know and trust.  Never-mind his experience evaluating, acquiring and developing talent is pretty much zero.  RK will have to help Adams for this to succeed. RK is the key.  

.  

Edited June 21, 2020 by Pimlach

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

54 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Running a sports team is not like running other businesses.

Let's face up to the facts ... we can do it.  Is Terry good at running a business, or did he invest well and get lucky in where he rolled the dice in drilling wells?  Maybe a bit of both, but I would say that he became very wealth due to his lucky gamble that paid off, more than any great business smarts.

They needed the NHL to help them out because, as @PerreaultForever correctly IMO pointed out, they know nothing about hockey and running a hockey team.  They trusted who they felt knew this stuff.  It has not worked out.  My feeling is that it will with RaKru.  KA will be fine too, but I really have to believe that Ralphie is running the show here.

So, does the NHL office know how to run a team? Their recommendations didn't pan out or is it just TP/KP? Both? 

Back to square 1. Trying to put a square Peg(ula) in a round hole.

[dudacek]

43 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

According to Harrington’s latest article,  NHL Execs are not happy with the Hockey Operations situation in Buffalo.  I don’t know what help the league can provide?  
 

Black, Sawyer, Patrick, LaFontaine, etc - did they listen to these guys?   Murray and Botterill did not get four years and the perception around the league is they took on major 4-5 year very extensive rebuilds. 

The Pegula’s seem to not want help anyways.  They hired someone they know and trust.  Never-mind his experience evaluating, acquiring and developing talent is pretty much zero.  RK will have to help Adams for this to succeed. 

.  

Botterill was well-respected and highly recommended by the NHL.

I think it’s logical to assume they’d be pointing fingers back at the Pegulas, especially with the blazing pile of rubber that has been the franchise under their leadership.

[Weave]

33 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Botterill was well-respected and highly recommended by the NHL.

I think it’s logical to assume they’d be pointing fingers back at the Pegulas, especially with the blazing pile of rubber that has been the franchise under their leadership.

We've heard plenty in the last week or so that indicates the Pegulas are very involved in the day to day stuff.  And have been since the beginning (thinking of Regier's comments about never having been involved in daily discussions with owners like he was with the Pegulas).  It seems likely to me that the Pegulas simply haven't allowed enough free reign of their league suggested hires to get an accurate indication of how good these people may actually be at their jobs. 

[Sabre fan]

Maybe the Pegulas are involved because clearly the people they were paying big money to, and who came highly recommended (as JBotto was) simply were not achieving much of anything or improving the team. This team would be much better if JBotto had left it alone and maybe tweaked some minor moves but this team with ROR, Kane, Lehner in goal and add Skinner and the defense that were brought in and this team would be playoff material.. Clearly both exGMTM and exGMJotto were free to do what they wished as they made moves no hockey person would agree to and make. Truth be told exGMTM was doing better (and had a bette rwin/lose record) then exGMJBotto which i think surprises just about everyone (the Pegulas included) 

[Gatorman0519]

Because Buffalo is a great hockey market and they want us to do well.  It is also undeniable how dysfunctional the franchise is from top down.  You have to be really inept to post an entire decade of non playoff teams in a sport that sends half each year.  The statistical odds show we are the extreme outlier in not able to make it in once in an entire decade.  These are facts.  Only homers can deny this at this point.  

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

According to Harrington’s latest article,  NHL Execs are not happy with the Hockey Operations situation in Buffalo.  I don’t know what help the league can provide?  
 

Black, Sawyer, Patrick, LaFontaine, etc - did they listen to these guys?   Murray and Botterill did not get four years and the perception around the league is they took on major 4-5 year very extensive rebuilds. 

The Pegula’s seem to not want help these days.  They hired someone (Adams) they know and trust.  Never-mind his experience evaluating, acquiring and developing talent is pretty much zero.  RK will have to help Adams for this to succeed. RK is the key.  

I agree that Adams doesn’t have the usual GM experience, but I think it’s a little strange that so many assume he is going to be lost when it comes to making hockey decisions.  The guy was an NHL player for 10+ years, has done some coaching, has done a little work  for an agency, in addition to high level business/management experience.  I’m sure that he knows hockey.  Krueger should be able help, but he hasn’t really proven anything at the NHL level either.

This is not to say that I think Adams does not need to surround himself with some more experienced people.  I think that he should.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

We've heard plenty in the last week or so that indicates the Pegulas are very involved in the day to day stuff.  And have been since the beginning (thinking of Regier's comments about never having been involved in daily discussions with owners like he was with the Pegulas).  It seems likely to me that the Pegulas simply haven't allowed enough free reign of their league suggested hires to get an accurate indication of how good these people may actually be at their jobs. 

True as it may be, it is obscuring around the league how terrible Botterill was at his job.

Unless you actually think the Pegulas are to blame for Mittelstadt, Thompson, Frolik, Sheary, the hoarding of RH defencemen, and many other Botterill-era mistakes

[Weave]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

True as it may be, it is obscuring around the league how terrible Botterill was at his job.

Unless you actually think the Pegulas are to blame for Mittelstadt, Thompson, Frolik, Sheary, the hoarding of RH defencemen, and many other Botterill-era mistakes

I'm not sure they haven't been involved in many of those small decisions.  The more I hear, the more inclined I am to believe that they are micromanaging their hockey experts.

[inkman]

To answer the OP, no the Pegulas should not seek any assistance from the league. It's run by buffoons.  

As far as the on going Kim Pegula doesn't know anything or isn't qualified, she can sit on this teams face, ride it into the sun yelling "Who Else?!?" for all I care.  She's made decisions in her life to get herself into this position, go suck an egg if it bothers you.  

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

2 hours ago, Sabre fan said:

Maybe the Pegulas are involved because clearly the people they were paying big money to, and who came highly recommended (as JBotto was) simply were not achieving much of anything or improving the team. This team would be much better if JBotto had left it alone and maybe tweaked some minor moves but this team with ROR, Kane, Lehner in goal and add Skinner and the defense that were brought in and this team would be playoff material.. Clearly both exGMTM and exGMJotto were free to do what they wished as they made moves no hockey person would agree to and make. Truth be told exGMTM was doing better (and had a bette rwin/lose record) then exGMJBotto which i think surprises just about everyone (the Pegulas included) 

I don't think there's anyway you meet the cap with all those players on the team.

[Sabre fan]

56 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I don't think there's anyway you meet the cap with all those players on the team.

I hear we have lots of cap space now and other teams seem to find ways to keep a bunch of big-money players (see TB Chicago etc) of course exGMJBotto wouldn't have a clue how to keep all these guys happy  but it is obvious what teams do...pay their 5 or 6 top guys and then play a bunch of other guys who make diddly...and Toronto plays their young guys whether they make mistakes or not...we bring up  young guys and throw them out there then expect miracles and put all kinds of pressure on them then when he doesn't meet these great expectations thrown on him then we bench him,  send him back to Rochester or send him out the door.

[tom webster]

The NHL, and most of Harrington’s contacts are old school guys that hate what Arizona and Carolina are doing amongst others. They are waiting with baited breath for Dubai’s to fail in Toronto.

It is not uncommon in any business for new CEO’s to seek counsel from those that have been a success in the business. The Pegulas have just been inpatient and been unlucky in their choices.

Another point that I haven’t seen answered about a couple of narratives;

If they are so close to cash poor and so meddling, why did they let JBOT spend on salary, resign his assistants and negotiate contracts with the AHL staff.

[inkman]

26 minutes ago, tom webster said:

If they are so close to cash poor and so meddling, why did they let JBOT spend on salary, resign his assistants and negotiate contracts with the AHL staff.

Do we know the timing of said deals?  Pre-pandemic?

[Zamboni]

The fact that any one still reads and or follows Harrington is quite incredible to me. There are so many out there that are so so much better. That’s almost as bad as listening to shoop and the bulldog and think they have any kind of intelligent thought about sports. In my opinion they are insufferable fools.

[tom webster]

3 hours ago, inkman said:

Do we know the timing of said deals?  Pre-pandemic?

Definitely pre-pandemic.

[Kruppstahl]

On 6/21/2020 at 11:37 AM, Gatorman0519 said:

Because Buffalo is a great hockey market and they want us to do well.  It is also undeniable how dysfunctional the franchise is from top down.  You have to be really inept to post an entire decade of non playoff teams in a sport that sends half each year.  The statistical odds show we are the extreme outlier in not able to make it in once in an entire decade.  These are facts.  Only homers can deny this at this point.  

Yes, that's true.  It was the same with the Bills and the playoff drought.  Unbelievable odds of actually doing something like.

When there is this much failure for this long through many regime changes, there is only one place to look: ownership.

This is why I suggest it's not going to get better any time soon.

Pegula is definitely meddling with day-to-day affairs.

He's gone so far as to override his own GM's protests and ordered player moves with long terms opposed by management.

Leino and Ehrhoff are 2 examples of that.

 

 

[dudacek]

41 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Yes, that's true.  It was the same with the Bills and the playoff drought.  Unbelievable odds of actually doing something like.

When there is this much failure for this long through many regime changes, there is only one place to look: ownership.

This is why I suggest it's not going to get better any time soon.

Pegula is definitely meddling with day-to-day affairs.

He's gone so far as to override his own GM's protests and ordered player moves with long terms opposed by management.

Leino and Ehrhoff are 2 examples of that.

 

 

Do you think Terry learned any lessonS about the NHL not being a fantasy hockey league from that experience nine years ago?

Why or why not?

[Drag0nDan]

On 6/21/2020 at 11:28 AM, Sabre fan said:

Maybe the Pegulas are involved because clearly the people they were paying big money to, and who came highly recommended (as JBotto was) simply were not achieving much of anything or improving the team. This team would be much better if JBotto had left it alone and maybe tweaked some minor moves but this team with ROR, Kane, Lehner in goal and add Skinner and the defense that were brought in and this team would be playoff material.. Clearly both exGMTM and exGMJotto were free to do what they wished as they made moves no hockey person would agree to and make. Truth be told exGMTM was doing better (and had a bette rwin/lose record) then exGMJBotto which i think surprises just about everyone (the Pegulas included) 

The team had ROR Kane and Lehner and they stunk.  They had eichel and ROR and finished dead last. 

Both GMs (GMTM, and JB)

1 -mismanaged the cap

2 - they mismanaged young talent

3- they mismanaged trade assets

4 - both hired the wrong coaches. 

That to me, is why they were fired.  And if you look at that, its justifiable.  The scandella trade was a disaster (the blues traded a 2nd for him and extended him by the end of the year... we got to watch michael frolik play hockey).

Neither GM was ever able to lock up a quality player at a below-market deal in their entire terms.  IE David Pastrnak is 6.6 million for 3 more years.  Everyones at or above market rate.  The core is too expensive, and its not good.  Its sad to say, but i'd blow this whole thing up if i could.  Reinhart, Risto, Montour would all be out.  I'm reluctant to extend a mittelstadt or Thompson beyond a qualifying offer, since neither has proven worth on the ice.  Either could also be packaged in a trade at this point.  

I'm not even saying tank.  Just need to re-evaluate what this team is, and whether under its current construction it can be successful.  

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Do you think Terry learned any lessonS about the NHL not being a fantasy hockey league from that experience nine years ago?

Why or why not?

Terry and the Mrs have learned NOTHING. 

To quote a great man...

 

‘Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.’