Elliot Friedman podcast on franchise upheaval

[IKnowPhysics]

Likely posted above, but Friedman's podcast on this is must-listen.

https://podcast.sportsnet.ca/31-thoughts/buffaloed/

Takeaways:

• Ownership is fed up with relying on typical outside hockey people to help them find the right people and the right path for the franchise.  They're going outside the box.  They're not afraid of making changes by terminating contracts with term remaining.  Kevyn is seen as a non-hockey hire that is trusted by the owners and is home-grown within the organization.
• It's thought that Botterill never wanted to give term to Eichel and Skinner, but ownership did and overruled him.  (Side note, perhaps this is why Reinhart got a bridge deal) Botterill effectively had to pitch the future plan for the franchise recently in the interviews and ownership didn't agree with the plan.
• Kevyn traveled with the team late in the regular season, which was an unusual move that raised some eyebrows and potentially put at least some of the writing on the wall.
• Up until yesterday morning, several AHL and NHL coaching staff members, including Chris Taylor, were in contract/extension negotiations with Botterill.  Botterill was acting as if he were continuing right up to the firing.

[SDS]

I split this off because this actually was a very good listen from hockey people who don’t come from Buffalo. Please comment on the substance of the podcast and leave the other stuff out. Thanks.

[OhMyDahlin]

So Pegula wanted the Skinner contract and now he/she is basically the GM? This should go well.

Here comes the 7 year, $49M contract for Wayne Simmonds!

Edited June 17, 2020 by OhMyDahlin

[darksabre]

1 hour ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Likely posted above, but Friedman's podcast on this is must-listen.

https://podcast.sportsnet.ca/31-thoughts/buffaloed/

Takeaways:

• Ownership is fed up with relying on typical outside hockey people to help them find the right people and the right path for the franchise.  They're going outside the box.  They're not afraid of making changes by terminating contracts with term remaining.  Kevyn is seen as a non-hockey hire that is trusted by the owners and is home-grown within the organization.
• It's thought that Botterill never wanted to give term to Eichel and Skinner, but ownership did and overruled him.  (Side note, perhaps this is why Reinhart got a bridge deal) Botterill effectively had to pitch the future plan for the franchise recently in the interviews and ownership didn't agree with the plan.
• Kevyn traveled with the team late in the regular season, which was an unusual move that raised some eyebrows and potentially put at least some of the writing on the wall.
• Up until yesterday morning, several AHL and NHL coaching staff members, including Chris Taylor, were in contract/extension negotiations with Botterill.  Botterill was acting as if he were continuing right up to the firing.

hmmmmm

[Ruff Around The Edges]

2 interesting, yet similarly troubling thoughts:

The owner overruling part, especially in terms of Skinner's contact which at this point, appears that it will be an albatross that could plague this team for years to come, happened.

Having said that, JBot did NOT want to give Eichel term? What exactly was JB watching?

Bottom line: TP and KP need to stay the living heck out of the way and let Kevyn and his staff do their job and trust, similar to what TP appears to have done with Brandon Beane with the Bills.

 

[Curt]

40 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

2 interesting, yet similarly troubling thoughts:

The owner overruling part, especially in terms of Skinner's contact which at this point, appears that it will be an albatross that could plague this team for years to come, happened.

Having said that, JBot did NOT want to give Eichel term? What exactly was JB watching?

Bottom line: TP and KP need to stay the living heck out of the way and let Kevyn and his staff do their job and trust, similar to what TP appears to have done with Brandon Beane with the Bills.

 

They seem like they are consciously trying to be more involved to be honest.

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, Curt said:

They seem like they are consciously trying to be more involved to be honest.

Yep. They want a culture they approve of, run by people who share their values, implementing a plan they helped create.

And they don’t trust that will happen without them playing a direct role.

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

 

Bottom line: TP and KP need to stay the living heck out of the way and let Kevyn and his staff do their job and trust,

 

This is clearly NOT part of their plan.

[Weave]

Regarding those bulleted points:

1. I don’t blame them for not trusting typical outside sources.  It gave them Bylsma, Housley, and Botteril.  Then again, they’ve probably asked the wrong outside sources.  Wonder if the league has been playing them?

2. Regarding not wanting to give term to Eichel and Skinner, I’d love to hear Bott’s rationale.  He did come with a cap guru rep.  And it’s looking like he was right on Skinner.  I won’t criticize that without hearing the reasoning behind it.

3. Yeah, I’d assume I’m getting negative evaluations if Adams was traveling with the team.  The guy with the boss’s ear is not the guy you want to see watching you.

4. It will be interesting to see what AHL coaching candidates will sign up now.  Have to think that a budgetary blood letting won’t attract the best and brightest.

 

[Zamboni]

28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Yep. They want a culture they approve of, run by people who share their values, implementing a plan they helped create.

And they don’t trust that will happen without them playing a direct role.

Exactly. So love it or hate it, The owners are no longer delegating. They are gonna micromanage the hell out of the team. 
We’ll see how long KA and RK put up with the level of it.

I hope some NHL GM experience gets hired as assistants and/or advisors. 

[PASabreFan]

38 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Yep. They want a culture they approve of, run by people who share their values, implementing a plan they helped create.

And they don’t trust that will happen without them playing a direct role.

And how does winning fit into their plans? And how does this new plan differ from their plan in 2011? Not buying it.

Maybe Harrington can get all the former staff together so they can trade stories. The common refrain would be: "These people are control freaks in a business they know nothing about."

[PASabreFan]

10 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Exactly. So love it or hate it, The owners are no longer delegating. They are gonna micromanage the hell out of the team. 
We’ll see how long KA and RK put up with the level of it.

I hope some NHL GM experience gets hired as assistants and/or advisors. 

They (Terry) never delegated. If you listen to this podcast you'll hear one of them recount hearing Darcy say he'd never encountered so much interference from an owner in his career.

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

And how does winning fit into their plans? And how does this new plan differ from their plan in 2011? Not buying it.

Maybe Harrington can get all the former staff together so they can trade stories. The common refrain would be: "These people are control freaks in a business they know nothing about."

Hubris certainly seems to be theIr biggest sin.

Their repeated version of accountability seems to be “It’s my fault, I was too trusting”

[7+6=13]

Thinking owners won't be and shouldn't be involved in the decision to give or not give massive contracts with term is pretty ridiculous IMO.

[SDS]

47 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

They (Terry) never delegated. If you listen to this podcast you'll hear one of them recount hearing Darcy say he'd never encountered so much interference from an owner in his career.

You fail to mention the other half of that quote. Friedman also said this is not like the old days when franchise values were low and owners stayed out. He said with the escalating values that of course the owners want to be involved these days as opposed to the past. I think he might have even said they should be. Don’t quite recall if that was said though.

[shrader]

15 hours ago, Weave said:

 

2. Regarding not wanting to give term to Eichel and Skinner, I’d love to hear Bott’s rationale.  He did come with a cap guru rep.  And it’s looking like he was right on Skinner.  I won’t criticize that without hearing the reasoning behind it.

 

It’s unfortunate that the two get paired together on this one. Completely independent of anything else, the thought of not wanting to give long term to Eichel is completely baffling to me. What goes beyond a red flag? That’s exactly what this thought is. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by shrader

[Andrew Amerk]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Yep. They want a culture they approve of, run by people who share their values, implementing a plan they helped create.

And they don’t trust that will happen without them playing a direct role.

This is absolutely correct, and has been, and will continue to be, one of the biggest problems. 

They don’t want to watch some other kid play with the toy car in the sandbox. They want to play with the toy car in the sandbox...or at least be able to tell the other kid how they want to watch him play with the toy car in the sandbox. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Andrew Amerk

[Two or less]

11 hours ago, SDS said:

I split this off because this actually was a very good listen from hockey people who don’t come from Buffalo. Please comment on the substance of the podcast and leave the other stuff out. Thanks.

I enjoyed this pod a lot too. One of my thoughts from listening to this was when Elliott mentioned Rick Dudley and Scott Luce as possible people to join the staff. Dudley still lives currently in Lewiston. I don't think someone like Elliott throws names out there for no reason. I think these two are guys who are very much on the Sabres radar. The reason why it's interesting to me is, because all the talk is how thin the Sabres will go and how poor the Pegula's are, but both of these guys are very highly respected in the league, have an amazing track record and would cost a lot of $$ to bring them out of their current roles on their teams to come here.

 

10 hours ago, OhMyDahlin said:

So Pegula wanted the Skinner contract and now he/she is basically the GM? This should go well.

Here comes the 7 year, $49M contract for Wayne Simmonds!

I'm probably in the minority here but i want the Pegula's involved. Maybe not be the ones who call the shots, who call GMs and agents, but to be "woke". All season long, all i've heard on social media is how they stopped caring after buying the Bills and how they never come to games anymore (which is not true), basically labeling them as absentee owners. Now, info comes out that they are NOT absentee owners and actually involved, people have issues with it too.

My concern always is, if you have a GM like Botterill (before he was fired) coming back for a fourth season after three very poor seasons, you'd almost have to be an absolute idiot to think he was returning stressfree and having full confidence from ownership. What stops him from say trading UPL and Pekar for a 3rd liner and then trading the first round pick and Borgen for another player, basically tossing up a hail mary to save his job, knowing that at this point it's playoffs or bust for him. They make playoffs, he survives, they miss the playoffs, he's fired anyways so why should he care about the pipeline? Like fans, the owners remain with the club long after the dust settles. Players and management comes and goes. I sure hope Pegula's are asking "wait a minute, this seems odd, you sure this is for the best interest of the Sabres?"  

[Never NEVER Give-up]

15 hours ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

JBot did NOT want to give Eichel term

I'm sorry, what does this mean?

[Zamboni]

3 minutes ago, Never NEVER Give-up said:

I'm sorry, what does this mean?

Term = 7, 8 years 

 

allegedly JB wanted to give Eichel perhaps 3 or 4 year contract instead.

[LGR4GM]

The podcast was interesting but I think it failed to really acknowledge that there were issues within the structure and running of the Sabres.

[North Buffalo]

Interesting all of it but we have no idea if these changes will work.  Sorry to see Chris Taylor leave, thought he coached and developed guys well.  That being said wondering if Ralph has someone in mind and obviously Botts had a huge blind spot for finding/evaluating offensive talent not in a good way.  

Pegulas have a mindset in mind and seem to be looking for the hockey version of McD/Beane combo.  KA started on right foot as far as saying the right things but we will see how he performs.  Sabres need a guy on the inside though that can be a mover and shaker in a good way, smart and effective.  All the guys they have hired have been smart imo... effective not so much... they all have had glaring blind spots that have cost them.  Hopefully Adams is able to minimize thru bringing in people effective in areas he is not and minimize or be flexible to id possible blind spots.  

The Bills' Beane seems to be able to ID those areas of critical need, prioritize different levels of talent, their value, and McD able to flexibly make it work.  The Sabres need that in a hockey version.  Again show me.

Edited June 18, 2020 by North Buffalo

[dudacek]

@Reino23 bringing it this morning.

We all bring a lot of baggage to this table and it’s time to question whether things we’ve taken for granted are actually true.

Three days ago, I would have said Chris Taylor has done a great job. But really, has he? Isn’t his primary job to send NHL-ready players to the big club? How many has he delivered?

Not picking on Taylor, but the Sabres haven’t been getting it done. Maybe an actual accounting has happened as to why, and maybe Black Tuesday is the result.

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

@Reino23 bringing it this morning.

We all bring a lot of baggage to this table and it’s time to question whether things we’ve taken for granted are actually true.

Three days ago, I would have said Chris Taylor has done a great job. But really, has he? Isn’t his primary job to send NHL-ready players to the big club? How many has he delivered?

Not picking on Taylor, but the Sabres haven’t been getting it done. Maybe an actual accounting has happened as to why, and maybe Black Tuesday is the result.

The hubbub over the Taylor firing is probably the funniest part of this whole thing to me. There are people on Twitter acting like the Pegulas put him out on the streets, like Taylor is some kind of working-class martyr. "He's just a hard workin guy, how will his kids eat!?" I dunno, he's the one who picked this career. I think he'll figure it out.

I think a lot of people are looking for literally anything they can be mad at the Pegulas about. What's that phrase that gets tossed around, "outrage culture"? I normally roll my eyes when I see someone use it, but in this situation it feels like it might be where we're at.

[nucci]

8 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The hubbub over the Taylor firing is probably the funniest part of this whole thing to me. There are people on Twitter acting like the Pegulas put him out on the streets, like Taylor is some kind of working-class martyr. "He's just a hard workin guy, how will his kids eat!?" I dunno, he's the one who picked this career. I think he'll figure it out.

I think a lot of people are looking for literally anything they can be mad at the Pegulas about. What's that phrase that gets tossed around, "outrage culture"? I normally roll my eyes when I see someone use it, but in this situation it feels like it might be where we're at.

they do give us a lot of opportunities