Eichel’s End of Season Zoom Meeting/Now with Risto Quotes.

[Weave]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

That’s a pretty conclusive statement.

Fair enough. 

[bob_sauve28]

8 hours ago, OverPowerYou said:

The season ended prematurely. I wonder if Ryan Miller would come back for 1 more year and show UPL how to be a starting goalie 

I think it’s actually a good off season to sign a veteran goalie, hopefully they get one 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 hours ago, Weave said:

I get PA's point.  I don't know if it is accurate, but I get it.

Too lazy to verify, but I'm relatively sure Yzerman was in the playoffs in year 2, and another year or two before the dominant team was built.  So maybe there was early evidence that Yzerman was going places. 

I think there is a real chance that Eichel is Turgeon2.0.  I'm sure he's a better player, but is he the right player?  I don't know.  And I think that is PA's point.  Maybe if he isn't the right player he can grow into it.  Turgeon was not the same guy after 7-8 yrs that he was in Buffalo.  But he was also becoming a secondary piece as well.  Not to say Jack is destined to be a secondary piece, just that he might not be the right player, right now.

In the end I most strongly suspect that Jack is the right guy, but needs more around him.  But I acknowledge the possibility that it might not be the case.

 

I think you may be on to something here with the Turgeon 2.0 thinking.  Jack is more talented, but like Pierre his talent is somewhat wasted by lack of support.

Turgeon was 'the guy' in Buffalo and he was going to be the guy, until Smilin' Ger went to NY and turned Pierre (and stuff) into LaLa (and stuff).  Both teams were desperate to go someplace else and LaLa was already showing a big vulnerability to the nasty injury bug. 

[inkman]

10 hours ago, OverPowerYou said:

The season ended prematurely. I wonder if Ryan Miller would come back for 1 more year and show UPL how to be a starting goalie 

If Ukka is on the Sabres next season, a miracle would have to take place. He was an unmitigated disaster in the AHL.  The level of which I haven't seen in years. He was bad. Like Robin Lehner in a shootout bad.  

[inkman]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I think you may be on to something here with the Turgeon 2.0 thinking.  Jack is more talented, but like Pierre his talent is somewhat wasted by lack of support.

Turgeon was 'the guy' in Buffalo and he was going to be the guy, until Smilin' Ger went to NY and turned Pierre (and stuff) into LaLa (and stuff).  Both teams were desperate to go someplace else and LaLa was already showing a big vulnerability to the nasty injury bug. 

Except minus the injuries, Jack is Pat in this situation.  Turgeon was sublime, like Reinhart plus.  Jack is a force that needs to be accounted for every second much like Patty.  We just need to get Jack his Alex, Dale and Dave.  

[PASabreFan]

Show of hands. Who'd go back in time and kill baby Meehan to keep him from one day trading the treasure of our mid 80s tank, Pierre Turgeon? Anyone? Even though Pierre lit it up with the Isles and went on to have a very lengthy and very productive career, a decade after LaFontaine had to retire, ending up as one of the best players to not be in the Hall of Fame? Didn't think so. And why is that?

[Gatorman0519]

44 minutes ago, inkman said:

If Ukka is on the Sabres next season, a miracle would have to take place. He was an unmitigated disaster in the AHL.  The level of which I haven't seen in years. He was bad. Like Robin Lehner in a shootout bad.  

Well that is disturbing.  What else can go wrong?

[Curt]

11 hours ago, OverPowerYou said:

The season ended prematurely. I wonder if Ryan Miller would come back for 1 more year and show UPL how to be a starting goalie 

1) Ryan Miller almost certainly isn’t coming back.  He wants to be in So. Cal.

2) UPL probably shouldn’t spend any real time in the NHL next season.  He hasn’t looked ready.

3) Sabres are going to have Ullmark, Miller, AND UPL on the roster?  In addition to Hutton, who I am assuming would be waived or something?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

18 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Show of hands. Who'd go back in time and kill baby Meehan to keep him from one day trading the treasure of our mid 80s tank, Pierre Turgeon? Anyone? Even though Pierre lit it up with the Isles and went on to have a very lengthy and very productive career, a decade after LaFontaine had to retire, ending up as one of the best players to not be in the Hall of Fame? Didn't think so. And why is that?

I have a feeling this is not a real question, but in case it is I will give you my real answer ...

The Sabres had a better chance at the cup with LaLa than OOOOlala Pierre.  It's the only reason.  Pierre did not take the Islanders to the promised land and he would not have taken the Sabres either.  The Sabres had a good chance in 1993 had they played Hasek and if LaLa was 100%.  And if Muckler had not traded away Dave and Mike.  And ... 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Show of hands. Who'd go back in time and kill baby Meehan to keep him from one day trading the treasure of our mid 80s tank, Pierre Turgeon? Anyone? Even though Pierre lit it up with the Isles and went on to have a very lengthy and very productive career, a decade after LaFontaine had to retire, ending up as one of the best players to not be in the Hall of Fame? Didn't think so. And why is that?

Because Pat is better than Pierre. Who is Pat to Eichel’s Pierre? McDavid?
I mean I get where you’re going with this, but it’s a dead end because Jack is not missing a key ingredient the way Pete was. 

Inky nailed it. 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Show of hands. Who'd go back in time and kill baby Meehan to keep him from one day trading the treasure of our mid 80s tank, Pierre Turgeon? Anyone? Even though Pierre lit it up with the Isles and went on to have a very lengthy and very productive career, a decade after LaFontaine had to retire, ending up as one of the best players to not be in the Hall of Fame? Didn't think so. And why is that?

Lalalalalalalafontaine!!

[Doohickie]

14 hours ago, Weave said:

Where’s @Doohickie?

I'm not talking hockey right now.  Don't care.  The end of this season was too much of a flustercuck to make any judgment as to where the team is and where it's going.  I'll check in once the Sabres are back on the ice.  Everything else in between is just yakking.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Doohickie

[Weave]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Show of hands. Who'd go back in time and kill baby Meehan to keep him from one day trading the treasure of our mid 80s tank, Pierre Turgeon? Anyone? Even though Pierre lit it up with the Isles and went on to have a very lengthy and very productive career, a decade after LaFontaine had to retire, ending up as one of the best players to not be in the Hall of Fame? Didn't think so. And why is that?

Hawerchuck and Turgeon with the rest of that stacked lineup in 92-93?  Do we get past Montreal if we had two healthy centers at the top of the lineup?  It's an  interesting thought.

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Because Pat is better than Pierre. Who is Pat to Eichel’s Pierre? McDavid?
I mean I get where you’re going with this, but it’s a dead end because Jack is not missing a key ingredient the way Pete was. 

Inky nailed it. 

And that ingredient was?

Are we back to the pre-draft ranking of 2015? McDavid is the top player in the game and Eichel second? That's a bit much.

Turgeon-LaFontaine was a good-old fashioned hockey trade of two players who wanted and needed to move on. The personality change for the Sabres did wonders for the fans and altered the course of the franchise. Pat did a lot to get the Sabres into a new arena and on the path to a near-Cup by decade's end, even though he was gone by then.

Edited May 30, 2020 by PASabreFan

[PASabreFan]

2 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I have a feeling this is not a real question, but in case it is I will give you my real answer ...

The Sabres had a better chance at the cup with LaLa than OOOOlala Pierre.  It's the only reason.  Pierre did not take the Islanders to the promised land and he would not have taken the Sabres either.  The Sabres had a good chance in 1993 had they played Hasek and if LaLa was 100%.  And if Muckler had not traded away Dave and Mike.  And ... 

I don't understand the jab. It's a real question.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

33 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I don't understand the jab. It's a real question.

Sorry.  I gave you my answer.

[PASabreFan]

3 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Sorry.  I gave you my answer.

The question is real (and it's spectacular). It's just another way to think about getting the franchise out of its rut, which I think is hauntingly similar to the rut it was in in the fall of 1991 (15 years since glory days, almost 10 years into a playoff drought, quaintly defined in the 80s and 90s as not winning a playoff series). Either way, what a seemingly hopeless situation: keeping Jack or trading Jack (they're keeping Jack), success depends on having good management and non-meddling ownership, which we don't have.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

13 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

The question is real (and it's spectacular). It's just another way to think about getting the franchise out of its rut, which I think is hauntingly similar to the rut it was in in the fall of 1991 (15 years since glory days, almost 10 years into a playoff drought, quaintly defined in the 80s and 90s as not winning a playoff series). Either way, what a seemingly hopeless situation: keeping Jack or trading Jack (they're keeping Jack), success depends on having good management and non-meddling ownership, which we don't have.

I hear you and agree that Jack is not the problem.  He is not perfect, but he is the best Sabre since ????? Lafontaine, I would say for sure.  Hasek????? In a very long time, that's for sure.  It seems that the powers that be are bound and determined to screw it all up until Jack retires, or demands a trade.  

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

The question is real (and it's spectacular). It's just another way to think about getting the franchise out of its rut, which I think is hauntingly similar to the rut it was in in the fall of 1991 (15 years since glory days, almost 10 years into a playoff drought, quaintly defined in the 80s and 90s as not winning a playoff series). Either way, what a seemingly hopeless situation: keeping Jack or trading Jack (they're keeping Jack), success depends on having good management and non-meddling ownership, which we don't have.

You were saying before you think Jack is missing something to the effect it wouldn't likely be possible to surround him with the players necessary to get us over the edge. Clearly that's not a demonstrable argument talent wise, after this season, but we can always revisit it if Jack tails off. 

If you argument is pivoting to (or was already fundamentally based on) the idea that it's some sort of no-bueno personality clash, that Jack is missing some sort of intangible, Jonathan Toews like side ingredient, and you believe those types of things exist, we can't know anyways until we surround Jack with a capable team. We have to remove that variable or we aren't doing this properly. 

But that argument can't be dismissed, it's certainly plausible that for an undefined to our eyes reason Jack will prove to be not the right "fit" here, in a championship contender sense, and furthermore, that the trade of Jack for a different type of personality could somehow ignite a turnaround. I wouldn't bet on it, at all, but it's very difficult to prove a negative. And the idea that Jack DOESN'T have some sort of extra ingredient is not something we can know until the other pieces fall into place. 

To me, it's all there until proven otherwise. And furthermore, a moot point. We know Jack has the talent, to SUCH an extent that we'd be SOL without him anyways as no trade return (IMO) would come close to matching what he brings on the ice, not nearly close enough to allow "intangibles" to bridge the gap, so I'll take my chances in surrounding him with capable players. I know your original argument was that we are "SOL" *with* him anyways, so who cares, but again, we don't yet know we are SOL with him without addressing the other key variables. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Thorny

[thewookie1]

In theory if Miller does decide to play for one more year and we could jettison Hutton I actually could believe he'd be willing to come out here for a single season to finish up his career. While he wants to stay in California, I could honestly see him deciding to come back to Buffalo as it would only be about 6 or 7 months. December through May as I do think we somehow end up in the playoffs next year. (Mostly because I think Eichel and Dahlin will just will them into the playoffs with average goaltending from Ullmark and Miller.

 

Regardless, I think within 2 years he retires as a Sabre either playing a full year, a partial year, or one of those day contracts

[Curt]

21 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

In theory if Miller does decide to play for one more year and we could jettison Hutton I actually could believe he'd be willing to come out here for a single season to finish up his career. While he wants to stay in California, I could honestly see him deciding to come back to Buffalo as it would only be about 6 or 7 months. December through May as I do think we somehow end up in the playoffs next year. (Mostly because I think Eichel and Dahlin will just will them into the playoffs with average goaltending from Ullmark and Miller.

 

Regardless, I think within 2 years he retires as a Sabre either playing a full year, a partial year, or one of those day contracts

People keep saying that maybe he would, and you never know I guess.  Maybe he loves Buffalo enough to make it a long distance relationship with his wife for 6-7 months, but I don’t see it.  His life is there and he wants to stay there.  He has made that quite clear.

[PASabreFan]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

You were saying before you think Jack is missing something to the effect it wouldn't likely be possible to surround him with the players necessary to get us over the edge. Clearly that's not a demonstrable argument talent wise, after this season, but we can always revisit it if Jack tails off. 

If you argument is pivoting to (or was already fundamentally based on) the idea that it's some sort of no-bueno personality clash, that Jack is missing some sort of intangible, Jonathan Toews like side ingredient, and you believe those types of things exist, we can't know anyways until we surround Jack with a capable team. We have to remove that variable or we aren't doing this properly. 

But that argument can't be dismissed, it's certainly plausible that for an undefined to our eyes reason Jack will prove to be not the right "fit" here, in a championship contender sense, and furthermore, that the trade of Jack for a different type of personality could somehow ignite a turnaround. I wouldn't bet on it, at all, but it's very difficult to prove a negative. And the idea that Jack DOESN'T have some sort of extra ingredient is not something we can know until the other pieces fall into place. 

To me, it's all there until proven otherwise. And furthermore, a moot point. We know Jack has the talent, to SUCH an extent that we'd be SOL without him anyways as no trade return (IMO) would come close to matching what he brings on the ice, not nearly close enough to allow "intangibles" to bridge the gap, so I'll take my chances in surrounding him with capable players. I know your original argument was that we are "SOL" *with* him anyways, so who cares, but again, we don't yet know we are SOL with him without addressing the other key variables. 

I think what I wrote was we can lose with Jack or lose without him. I'm just not married to any of these guys. I find it bizarre Taro would not be a Sabre fan any longer if Eichel and Dahlin ever leave. Sports is about constant change.

Here's one: you give the new Seattle GM a choice, you can have the Sabres roster or build your team under the conditions that the Vegas franchise was seeded. What would he do?

Edited May 30, 2020 by PASabreFan

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I think what I wrote was we can lose with Jack or lose without him. I'm just not married to any of these guys. I find it bizarre Taro would not be a Sabre fan any longer if Eichel and Dahlin ever leave. Sports is about constant change.

Here's one: you give the new Seattle GM a choice, you can have the Sabres roster or build your team under the conditions that the Vegas franchise was seeded. What would he do?

Yes, my Dad gave me this speech when the team moved my favourite player, Alex Mogilny. I do accept and agree with the principle.

- - - 

Your question is a very interesting one. Pre-Vegas expansion, I’m thinking one would be utterly laughed at if they suggested an expansion team was the quicker road to success than the current iteration Sabres roster. 

It’d come down to how much one thinks Vegas got lucky, how much one thinks they smartly manipulated the new system, and how much one more thinks other teams have LEARNED from the Vegas expansion. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

If someone thinks Botterill has done a very poor job, I think they’d lean towards the Sabres. I honestly think this team is fixable with a few savvy moves. The ineptitude of Botterill stems greatly from the fact the fixes seem to plausibly be in reach, and yet, never possessed. 

If someone is on Botterill’s side and can look at what he’s accomplished and say they are happy with it so far, I can only imagine they attribute an exceptionally high degree of difficulty to the process of turning around the situation Botterill walked into. The allure of a blank slate would, in my estimation, be tempting to those people. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Thorny

[Marvin]

On 5/29/2020 at 6:32 PM, Weave said:

Larry Robinson.  Stevie Y.

Only ones I can think of.

 

On 5/29/2020 at 6:35 PM, Taro T said:

Toe Blake.

Tops as both players and coaches are few.  You can add Jacques Lemaire, Jack Adams, Hap Day, "Gentleman" Joe Primeau, Cooney Weiland, and a few others.

Most good coaches were at best above-average players.  Guys like Lindy Ruff, Al Arbour, Carl Voss, Al Arbour, Joel Quenville, Pat Quinn, etc. are far more common.