Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Taro T said: Thing is, if the Pegulas are convincing about Botterill not being in a make or break year, & he's as big a dope as people here believe, then he won't be in desperation mode. Him being in desperation mode is a scary thought. Is there a good Botterill mode? Termination mode? 5 minutes ago, Taro T said: Fork that. They get off to a great start & have that 2C on the roster, some of us will enjoy every moment. Even if they don't have the 2C will still enjoy it. Refuse to watch them worrying that the wheels will fall off. That's pretty much where we've been anytime they've been good since the Knoxes had to bring Rigas on board. They fall off, they fall off. At least we'll get a new GM. And if they don't fall off, awesome. Enjoy the run. Watching this team worrying about how it'll crash has become too exhausting after 25+ years. If they don’t get a 2C I’ll unfortunately honestly just see them as DOA. Can’t put much stock in a “looming firing” as a source of comfort considering the long term damage he’s enacting on this franchise. Edited May 28, 2020 by Thorny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Thorny said: Is there a good Botterill mode? Termination mode? If they don’t a 2C I’ll unfortunately honestly just see them as DOA They likely will be. But in that case if they come out of the gate hot, will not watch worrying about the wheels falling off. Life's too short to be frustrated while it's good. If the wheels fall off after that, again, it is what it is & the silver lining is Botterill is gone & the next guy has 1 more 8th overall draft pick to work with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 16 minutes ago, dudacek said: What’s kinda sad is if they open well again next year absolutely no one will enjoy it. There weren’t many able to properly enjoy our good start this year. True, except if 3 minutes ago, Taro T said: Fork that. They get off to a great start & have that 2C on the roster, some of us will enjoy every moment. That's what's so painful about the last two offseasons or so, Jason just has to make the move. Addto a deal until it's completed. Be smart. And stay away from the obvious players we see too many of in our middle and bottom six. Like, move a D, the first rounder, and Mitts, and whatever else it may take, to get Good 2C. Keep your fourth line intact, they have roots here and you have cap space and a real plan. find one more good but not great forward. Get a backup that you are comfortable giving 35 games. Several are available. Skinner - Jack - complimentary good but not great forward Olofsson - Good 2C - Reinhart Johansson - Kahun/Cozens - Kahun/Cozens/Tage Good 4th line D minus one RHD average goaltending. This team can start out hot and would inspire belief that they can finish 82 games with a good record, because this team simply CAN finish 82 games with a good record. It doesn't have to be about hopes and wishes and best case scenarios. Just have your first good offseason (it doesn't even have to be the best offseason in the league that year or anything! Just make it good rather than awful or mediocre!) and we can have a team that is finally good, without reservations, asterisks, qualifications. A good team. A team we don't have to hope about - it will simply be good at hockey. The problem is, I'm hearing "Tage, Mitts, and Cozens" waaaaaaaaaaay too much outta his mouth for this early in the offseason. I'm scared of Olofsson - Eichel - Reinhart Skinner - Mitts/Cozens - Tage/Vesey-esque addition Johansson - Mitts/Cozens - Kahun Simmonds - Asplund - Kyle Vesey/Lazar jam-packed D Hutton again This team is not good, and would rely on four different prayers to have a hope at being good. The difference is entirely in Botterill's choices, and he has made 6 choices lending to bad lineups for every choice he's made lending to good ones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 9 minutes ago, Taro T said: They likely will be. But in that case if they come out of the gate hot, will not watch worrying about the wheels falling off. Life's too short to be frustrated while it's good. If the wheels fall off after that, again, it is what it is & the silver lining is Botterill is gone & the next guy has 1 more 8th overall draft pick to work with. Lol. I’ve spent 33 years learning to find a way to enjoy things *in spite* of worrying. Old dog. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: True, except if That's what's so painful about the last two offseasons or so, Jason just has to make the move. Addto a deal until it's completed. Be smart. And stay away from the obvious players we see too many of in our middle and bottom six. Like, move a D, the first rounder, and Mitts, and whatever else it may take, to get Good 2C. Keep your fourth line intact, they have roots here and you have cap space and a real plan. find one more good but not great forward. Get a backup that you are comfortable giving 35 games. Several are available. Skinner - Jack - complimentary good but not great forward Olofsson - Good 2C - Reinhart Johansson - Kahun/Cozens - Kahun/Cozens/Tage Good 4th line D minus one RHD average goaltending. This team can start out hot and would inspire belief that they can finish 82 games with a good record, because this team simply CAN finish 82 games with a good record. It doesn't have to be about hopes and wishes and best case scenarios. Just have your first good offseason (it doesn't even have to be the best offseason in the league that year or anything! Just make it good rather than awful or mediocre!) and we can have a team that is finally good, without reservations, asterisks, qualifications. A good team. A team we don't have to hope about - it will simply be good at hockey. The problem is, I'm hearing "Tage, Mitts, and Cozens" waaaaaaaaaaay too much outta his mouth for this early in the offseason. I'm scared of Olofsson - Eichel - Reinhart Skinner - Mitts/Cozens - Tage/Vesey-esque addition Johansson - Mitts/Cozens - Kahun Simmonds - Asplund - Kyle Vesey/Lazar jam-packed D Hutton again This team is not good, and would rely on four different prayers to have a hope at being good. The difference is entirely in Botterill's choices, and he has made 6 choices lending to bad lineups for every choice he's made lending to good ones The problem is that he has shown he is completely incapable of knowing what players are ones you should acquire and which ones you shouldn't touch with a ten foot poll. In fact he actively targets guys who are in that last group. Short a miracle of biblical proportions we are going to get exactly the same this offseason and then when 20-21 ends up being the 10th Hindenburg in a row the Pegulas will somehow be unable to understand why. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: True, except if That's what's so painful about the last two offseasons or so, Jason just has to make the move. Addto a deal until it's completed. Be smart. And stay away from the obvious players we see too many of in our middle and bottom six. Like, move a D, the first rounder, and Mitts, and whatever else it may take, to get Good 2C. Keep your fourth line intact, they have roots here and you have cap space and a real plan. find one more good but not great forward. Get a backup that you are comfortable giving 35 games. Several are available. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: ... The problem is, I'm hearing "Tage, Mitts, and Cozens" waaaaaaaaaaay too much outta his mouth for this early in the offseason. I'm scared of Olofsson - Eichel - Reinhart Skinner - Mitts/Cozens - Tage/Vesey-esque addition Johansson - Mitts/Cozens - Kahun Simmonds - Asplund - Kyle Vesey/Lazar jam-packed D Hutton again This team is not good, and would rely on four different prayers to have a hope at being good. The difference is entirely in Botterill's choices, and he has made 6 choices lending to bad lineups for every choice he's made lending to good ones After listening to his press conference, I think he's counting on the line-up above with Tage instead of a Vesey-type addition. ⛳ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: The problem is, I'm hearing "Tage, Mitts, and Cozens" waaaaaaaaaaay too much outta his mouth for this early in the offseason. I'm scared of In reality he’s a parody of the “develop from within” concept. People that wholeheartedly subscribe to that so basic, fundamental notion are having to literally argue FOR the other side of that coin because he’s so stubbornly, one-track mindedly committed to his slow, un-mouldable process. Edited May 28, 2020 by Thorny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 24 minutes ago, Taro T said: They likely will be. But in that case if they come out of the gate hot, will not watch worrying about the wheels falling off. Life's too short to be frustrated while it's good. If the wheels fall off after that, again, it is what it is & the silver lining is Botterill is gone & the next guy has 1 more 8th overall draft pick to work with. This, of course, is the correct take, and I hope to be there with you. But I doubt we’ll be in the majority. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 If you plug in a realistic number for Samson and Olofsson and any other RFAs, and assume we keep Larsson/Zemgus or wind up with their equivalent in those spots, how much more cap space do we have this offseason than we did with similarly-full rosters each of the last three years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, sabremike said: The problem is that he has shown he is completely incapable of knowing what players are ones you should acquire and which ones you shouldn't touch with a ten foot poll. In fact he actively targets guys who are in that last group. Short a miracle of biblical proportions we are going to get exactly the same this offseason and then when 20-21 ends up being the 10th Hindenburg in a row the Pegulas will somehow be unable to understand why. I agree, and it’s important to remember that it’s not JUST player evaluation with Botterill, it’s his strategy. Who is the best centre he has gone out and acquired? He’s not taking big swings at guys and failing, he’s not addressing the position adequately by choice. Edited May 28, 2020 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: If you plug in a realistic number for Samson and Olofsson and any other RFAs, and assume we keep Larsson/Zemgus or wind up with their equivalent in those spots, how much more cap space do we have this offseason than we did with similarly-full rosters each of the last three years? I did the math a while back after the Athletic came out with an estimate that seemed wrong. I’ll try to dig up the thread. Its not black and white because we have so many open spots, creating so many variables, and a stagnant cap has thrown “realistic” out the window. And our flexibility combined with other team’s tightness should lead to trades. Sign Victor to a bridge and accept Sam’s arbitration and they may cost $9 million on next year’s cap. sign them to generous long-term deals and it could be $14. Short answer is probably between 8 and 15 million to fill 4 forward slots. Edited May 28, 2020 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, dudacek said: I did the math a while back after the Athletic came out with an estimate that seemed wrong. I’ll try to dig up the thread. Its not black and white because we have so many open spots, creating so many variables, and a stagnant cap has thrown “realistic” out the window. And our flexibility combined with other team’s tightness should lead to trades. Sign Victor to a bridge and accept Sam’s arbitration and they may cost $9 million on next year’s cap. sign them to generous long-term deals and it could be $14. Short answer is probably between 8 and 15 million to fill 4 forward slots. That seems pretty typical compared to offseasons in which we were able to comfortably add players while signing Jack and Skinner to deals, and adding Skinner in the first place, no? It feels like this year is not unique for Jason in terms of cap space when you account for how few players are signed, and yet the phrasing of Wawrow's (curiously toned) questions, and in Jason's outlook, makes it seem like he wants to pass it off as part of the plan or something, like the pain of his tenure has been justified Edited May 28, 2020 by Randall Flagg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, dudacek said: I did the math a while back after the Athletic came out with an estimate that seemed wrong. I’ll try to dig up the thread. Its not black and white because we have so many open spots, creating so many variables, and a stagnant cap has thrown “realistic” out the window. And our flexibility combined with other team’s tightness should lead to trades. Sign Victor to a bridge and accept Sam’s arbitration and they may cost $9 million on next year’s cap. sign them to generous long-term deals and it could be $14. Short answer is probably between 8 and 15 million to fill 4 forward slots. They can’t afford to let Sam go to arbitration, can they? If he does, they almost certainly have to trade him next summer as he’d be one more Arb ruling from UFA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: That seems pretty typical compared to offseasons in which we were able to comfortably add players while signing Jack and Skinner to deals, and adding Skinner in the first place, no? It feels like this year is not unique for Jason in terms of cap space when you account for how few players are signed, and yet the phrasing of Wawrow's (curiously toned) questions, and in Jason's outlook, makes it seem like he wants to pass it off as part of the plan or something, like the pain of his tenure has been justified The other way of looking at it is they have about $35 million in cap space to play with, 3rd most in the league. If you don’t blow it on guys you already have, it’s a ton of wiggle room and virtual blank slate. Especially when 20 plus teams have less than $10 million and about a half-dozen can’t sign their free agents. Edited May 28, 2020 by dudacek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 Just now, Randall Flagg said: That seems pretty typical compared to offseasons in which we were able to comfortably add players while signing Jack and Skinner to deals, and adding Skinner in the first place, no? It feels like this year is not unique for Jason in terms of cap space when you account for how few players are signed, and yet the phrasing of Wawrow's (curiously toned) questions, and in Jason's outlook, makes it seem like he wants to pass it off as part of the plan or something, like the pain of his tenure has been justified It’s real weird. People over use the term a lot but it’s a narrative. Not the idea we’ll have some space, per se, but the idea that A) For some reason Botterill didn’t have a huge part to play in why we’ve been a cap team with “no space” until now, and B) it somehow justifies a 3 year build up to it as being worthy, are both cooked-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 Just now, dudacek said: The other way of looking at it is they have about $35 million in cap space to play with, 3rd most in the league. If you don’t blow it on guys you already have, it’s a ton of wiggle room and virtual blank slate. -> guys you already have -> Reinhart, Olofsson, Zemgus, Larsson Yeah, I'm comfortable blowing a bunch of it on guys we already have haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Thorny said: They can’t afford to let Sam go to arbitration, can they? If he does, they almost certainly have to trade him next summer as he’d be one more Arb ruling from UFA What they can do (hypothetically) is trade Sam to fix somebody’s cap problem. Sam for Cirelli and Killorn. Sam for Malkin. Sam and Casey for Anders Lee and Brock Nelson. (Not advocating or saying these are realistic, just trying to illustrate the point.) Edited May 28, 2020 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 If I trade Sam, it's because I'm building a blockbuster. A lot more will leave with him Sam, 7 overall, Montour, and Mitts for Monahan and Gaudreau and Bennett or something 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, dudacek said: What they can do (hypothetically) is trade Sam to fix somebody’s cap problem. Sam for Cirelli and Killorn. Sam for Malkin. Sam and Casey for Anders Lee and Brock Nelson. (Not advocating or saying these are realistic, just trying to illustrate the point.) Hopefully they’ll have the foresight to address this issue this offseason rather than letting it linger into next, especially if there are real opportunities available. Preference would be to keep Sam AND add, but as long as there’s more on ice talent coming in than going out, I can get on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 On 5/26/2020 at 9:06 PM, darksabre said: Lettuce goes on the bottom of the sandwich, not the top. Whoa, whoa, whoa...hold up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 22 minutes ago, dudacek said: What they can do (hypothetically) is trade Sam to fix somebody’s cap problem. Sam for Cirelli and Killorn. Sam for Malkin. Sam and Casey for Anders Lee and Brock Nelson. (Not advocating or saying these are realistic, just trying to illustrate the point.) Funny you mention Lee because while he's never leaving the island he is the exact type of player that we desperately need: his bread and butter is going to and staying in front of the net. Lacking that type of player just absolutely kills us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 10 hours ago, inkman said: Fun fact, whilst drunk in college, I would eat ramen like a candy bar. Uncooked, just a giant mass of crunchy noodles. Enjoyed it just the same. ? Same. Decent parlor trick for drunken mediocrities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEbriate Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 16 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said: The Master: Ogo terus sawb, maleht t'new yram; tah tereh werev ewons saeti h'w'sawec eelfs tib -- malelt tiladah yram! (Coven chanting stops) If you play it backwards you get a really good lentil soup recipe. OK, let's track it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted May 28, 2020 Report Share Posted May 28, 2020 But remember the fans don't understand... 4 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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