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dudacek

Targeting a 2C

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12 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

I realize that many may not believe me, and thats fine. I heard from a somewhat connected source that the Sabres were in talks with Calgary for a deal that would send Risto and Larsson for Monahan and Bennet. Jbotts was trying to get it down to just Risto for Monahan. Fwiw, I also heard there were talks of Mccabe and Larsson for Trochek about a week before the Trochek rumors started flying. I was asked to keep it hushed before the deadline.

The McCabe and Larsson offer was the offer Buffalo thought was better then what Florida got. Have heard the Monahan rumored interest but never with Larsson and Bennet.

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16 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I get the sense there may have been draft picks involved based on those trade proposals. 

There were no picks involved in the Florida/ Buffalo offer. 

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2 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

I realize that many may not believe me, and thats fine. I heard from a somewhat connected source that the Sabres were in talks with Calgary for a deal that would send Risto and Larsson for Monahan and Bennet. Jbotts was trying to get it down to just Risto for Monahan. Fwiw, I also heard there were talks of Mccabe and Larsson for Trochek about a week before the Trochek rumors started flying. I was asked to keep it hushed before the deadline.

If this is true, it's another firing offense for JB.  If Calgary was ready to go on that alleged deal, JB should've accepted immediately. 

IMHO -- and I say this not to express skepticism on your source -- by all means, please keep posting this kind of thing if you think it's credible -- it sounds way too Sabres-friendly to have been real.

 

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

The McCabe and Larsson offer was the offer Buffalo thought was better then what Florida got. Have heard the Monahan rumored interest but never with Larsson and Bennet.

Here, too, JB should've sweetened the offer to get the deal closed.

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I’m a fan of what Larsson brings, but I’d have to think most GMs would prefer Haula. McCabe, meanwhile, is probably worth more to most than Wallmark. But really, overall the packages are close.

So I can see that offer being in the running with the successful offer.

But like Freeman says, I’d pay more than that for Trochek. So if the Sabres lost out for not being able to beat the two middling prospects Carolina added to the deal, then shame on Jason.

As far as the Calgary offer goes, I’m all over that, so it is hard to believe it was Jason, not Treliving who said no.
What mildly moves the needle is that if this is true, it keeps alive the possibility that Risto actually could be the piece that nets us a real 2C. If that is the case, then I think back to his comment about some deals taking a year or more to unfold and I understand why Jason keeps hanging on to that card.

Edited by dudacek
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53 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m a fan of what Larsson brings, but I’d have to think most GMs would prefer Haula. McCabe, meanwhile, is probably worth more to most than Wallmark. But really, overall the packages are close.

So I can see that offer being in the running with the successful offer.

But like Freeman says, I’d pay more than that for Trochek. So if the Sabres lost out for not being able to beat the two middling prospects Carolina added to the deal, then shame on Jason.

As far as the Calgary offer goes, I’m all over that, so it is hard to believe it was Jason, not Treliving who said no.
What mildly moves the needle is that if this is true, it keeps alive the possibility that Risto actually could be the piece that nets us a real 2C. If that is the case, then I think back to his comment about some deals taking a year or more to unfold and I understand why Jason keeps hanging on to that card.

Absolutely makes sense.  And goes back to my expectation that Ristolainen ends up traded this off-season - he seems to have more value than the other 2 D-men that might realistically be part of an outgoing package.  (Risto, Montour, & McCabe are the 3 vets that most likely will be outgoing IMHO.)

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1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

If this is true, it's another firing offense for JB.  If Calgary was ready to go on that alleged deal, JB should've accepted immediately. 

IMHO -- and I say this not to express skepticism on your source -- by all means, please keep posting this kind of thing if you think it's credible -- it sounds way too Sabres-friendly to have been real.

 

Here, too, JB should've sweetened the offer to get the deal closed.

The Sabre’s did sweeten the offer but not with picks. I’m with you, JBOT has to close the deal. However, in this case it wasn’t as black and white. Both people who told me this deal was close had different takes on why it didn’t go down.

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3 hours ago, tom webster said:

The Sabre’s did sweeten the offer but not with picks. I’m with you, JBOT has to close the deal. However, in this case it wasn’t as black and white. Both people who told me this deal was close had different takes on why it didn’t go down.

Do they think it will be revisited?

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 7:53 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

We aren't getting any of the those players except maybe Domi, maybe.

Truth be told we don't need any of those players long-term.  For cap reasons we really need a bridge player until Mitts, Cozens or even this year's pick are ready for the job.  Also guys like Barzal, Dubios and Cirelli aren't being moved.  

True, we aren’t getting any of those players because our GM has actually made the cap situation worse in his tenure.  The “bridge players” at forward that JBots brought in thus far are  Poulliot, Berglund, Sobotka, O’Regan, Sheary, Johansson,  Vessey, Lazar and Frolik.  That is a very crappy group   

His big guns have been Skinner and nothing else   Now we have a coach who can’t find ice time for Skinner - our $9m winger   

We are already talking about moving Mittelstadt, because we rushed him, and we better not be rushing Cozens.    
 

Detroit, Ottawa and NJ all have multiple first rounders and will likely pass us soon in their rebuild.  

Edited by Pimlach
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2c is only part of the equation here. We also need better goaltending and we need to stop using that passive 1-1-2 pk (I believe that is what we use right?). Without fixing the pk and goaltending a 2c will just help one factor. We need to address all 3. 

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11 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Do they think it will be revisited?

Trocheck  was traded to Carolina so that deal with Florida is dead.

They aren’t dumb. They know they need a 2C. Whether they have the wherewithal to make it happen is debatable.

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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

2c is only part of the equation here. We also need better goaltending and we need to stop using that passive 1-1-2 pk (I believe that is what we use right?). Without fixing the pk and goaltending a 2c will just help one factor. We need to address all 3. 

In theory, finding a decent back-up to Ullmark before UPL hits the NHL should be as easy as filling in the bottom 6 with competent NHLers, so...um, er, uh, ick.

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1 hour ago, tom webster said:

Trocheck  was traded to Carolina so that deal with Florida is dead.

They aren’t dumb. They know they need a 2C. Whether they have the wherewithal to make it happen is debatable.

Have yet to see proof of the bolded from our management....

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1 hour ago, tom webster said:

Trocheck  was traded to Carolina so that deal with Florida is dead.

They aren’t dumb. They know they need a 2C. Whether they have the wherewithal to make it happen is debatable.

I meant the Monahan thing

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On 5/25/2020 at 3:42 PM, sabresparaavida said:

I realize that many may not believe me, and thats fine. I heard from a somewhat connected source that the Sabres were in talks with Calgary for a deal that would send Risto and Larsson for Monahan and Bennet. Jbotts was trying to get it down to just Risto for Monahan. Fwiw, I also heard there were talks of Mccabe and Larsson for Trochek about a week before the Trochek rumors started flying. I was asked to keep it hushed before the deadline.

Ya, I mean, I like Larsson a lot, but I wouldn't spend so much time arguing for him than I lose out on MONAHAN for Risto. Good grief, if true. 

On 5/25/2020 at 3:57 PM, tom webster said:

The McCabe and Larsson offer was the offer Buffalo thought was better then what Florida got. Have heard the Monahan rumored interest but never with Larsson and Bennet.

It's also hilarious they'd been doing all that touting about their offer being better. Maybe? It's certainly arguable, one way or the other, and hardly worthy of any sort of attempt at an objective "our offer was better" claim, presumably to save face. 

Edited by Thorny
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On 5/25/2020 at 6:31 PM, dudacek said:

I’m a fan of what Larsson brings, but I’d have to think most GMs would prefer Haula. McCabe, meanwhile, is probably worth more to most than Wallmark. But really, overall the packages are close.

So I can see that offer being in the running with the successful offer.

But like Freeman says, I’d pay more than that for Trochek. So if the Sabres lost out for not being able to beat the two middling prospects Carolina added to the deal, then shame on Jason.

As far as the Calgary offer goes, I’m all over that, so it is hard to believe it was Jason, not Treliving who said no.
What mildly moves the needle is that if this is true, it keeps alive the possibility that Risto actually could be the piece that nets us a real 2C. If that is the case, then I think back to his comment about some deals taking a year or more to unfold and I understand why Jason keeps hanging on to that card.

I don't. If the moves have been there, they should have been made. Timeline just seemingly factors so *little* into this guy's modus operandi. 

He's just out for a stroll. What's the timeline for everyone else? Are we content with JB holding onto Risto for another summer?

Edited by Thorny

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1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Ya, I mean, I like Larsson a lot, but I wouldn't spend so much time arguing for him than I lose out on MONAHAN for Risto. Good grief, if true. 

It's also hilarious they'd been doing all that touting about their offer being better. Maybe? It's certainly arguable, one way or the other, and hardly worthy of any sort of attempt at an objective "our offer was better" claim, presumably to save face. 

Their offer was better. They should have realized that Florida was concerned about helping them considering at the time they were close.

Its still incumbent on JBOT to close the deal. 
 

As for the Monahan deal, like I said I heard rumblings but not actual parameters. It would make no sense for them to balk at including Larrson considering they were dangling him to Florida.

 

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2 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Their offer was better. They should have realized that Florida was concerned about helping them considering at the time they were close.

Its still incumbent on JBOT to close the deal. 
 

As for the Monahan deal, like I said I heard rumblings but not actual parameters. It would make no sense for them to balk at including Larrson considering they were dangling him to Florida.

 

How is that objectively better? Their offer wasn't better, it was better in their opinion. It's a dumb claim for them to make - it just rankles me. They needed to seal the deal. If their offer was better, in Florida's view, the trade would have been consummated. 

Edited by Thorny

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15 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't. If the moves have been there, they should have been made. Timeline just seemingly factors so *little* into this guy's modus operandi. 

He's just out for a stroll. What's the timeline for everyone else? Are we content with JB holding onto Risto for another summer?

I’m perfectly fine with them keeping Risto indefinitely, but I like him a lot more than you do.

Here’s the scenario at this year’s deadline:

Anaheim has offered you Henrique for Risto straight across and is just waiting on you to sign off.

You and Calgary have agreed on Larsson/Risto for Monahan/Bennett as fair value, but the Flames want to give their core one more playoff chance before signing off. If they bust in the playoffs, they will have to shake up their core and will make the deal.

Do you move for Henrique now, or wait until June and cross your fingers one or both deals are still there?

Edited by dudacek

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6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m perfectly fine with them keeping Risto indefinitely, but I like him a lot more than you do.

Here’s the scenario at this year’s deadline:

Anaheim has offered you Henrique for Risto straight across and is just waiting on you to sign off.

You and Calgary have agreed on Larsson/Risto for Monahan/Bennett as fair value, but the Flames want to give their core one more playoff chance before signing off. If they bust in the playoffs, they will have to shake up their core and will make the deal.

Do you move for Henrique now, or wait until June and cross your fingers one or both deals are still there?

What I meant was, how long are you okay with the defense of Botterill that he's just taking his time in making a move for a 2C?

To the rest, was that the actual scenario? Do we know Calgary wanted to wait? 

To be honest, I'd probably wait for Monahan, but the bigger point is I never would have waited 2 years to find myself and this team in this position to begin with. Taken that long to address the issue. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Thorny said:

How is that objectively better? Their offer wasn't better, it was better in their opinion. It's a dumb claim for them to make - it just rankles me. They needed to seal the deal. If their offer was better, in Florida's view, the trade would have been consummated. 

There's the very real possibility that they needed the Sabres offer to be clearly substantially better than Carolina's to pull the trigger due to being in the same division.  Simp,y being "better" wasn't enough once intangibles got included.

That said, hard to believe the Sabres couldn't have found a way to make that happen & still be able to say they won that trade.

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1 minute ago, Thorny said:

What I meant was, how long are you okay with the defense of Botterill that he's just taking his time in making a move for a 2C?

To the rest, was that the actual scenario? Do we know Calgary wanted to wait? 

To be honest, I'd probably wait for Monahan, but the bigger point is I never would have waited 2 years to find myself and this team in this position to begin with. Taken that long to address the issue. 

 

My question was hypothetical.

If it was real, I would have waited too, and I can’t blame Botterill for doing the same.

As to the first, I’m well past that point. It’s less about the 2C specifically and more about the cumulative impact of his moves and the fact that year 3 the team overall needed to take a step that we didn’t take.

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5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

There's the very real possibility that they needed the Sabres offer to be clearly substantially better than Carolina's to pull the trigger due to being in the same division.  Simp,y being "better" wasn't enough once intangibles got included.

That said, hard to believe the Sabres couldn't have found a way to make that happen & still be able to say they won that trade.

If it's not substantially better, it probably falls under the grey area of subjectivity. 

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Its going to be interesting because I think its a given that the Cap won't be going up, so alot of teams will be at or over the cap and need to dump instead of signing big names. Alot of upgrades may need to come from within, or players may re-sign with their current teams for less then we would expect because they won't get more elsewhere

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4 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m perfectly fine with them keeping Risto indefinitely, but I like him a lot more than you do.

Here’s the scenario at this year’s deadline:

Anaheim has offered you Henrique for Risto straight across and is just waiting on you to sign off.

You and Calgary have agreed on Larsson/Risto for Monahan/Bennett as fair value, but the Flames want to give their core one more playoff chance before signing off. If they bust in the playoffs, they will have to shake up their core and will make the deal.

Do you move for Henrique now, or wait until June and cross your fingers one or both deals are still there?

Totally realizing that's a hypothetical, but hoping that wasn't the trade Botterill still expects to be on the table whenever Calgary is eliminated as Larsson becomes a UFA whenever the new league year starts unless Botts does some fancy talking to his agent soon.

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