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LGR4GM

Why is Botterill still GM?

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4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

In real terms we are definitely scoring more goals then the TM teams, but in adjusted terms we are only marginally better.  However we are better.  We are also better in real and adjusted terms on defense, especially when Ullmark plays.

 

Last I looked I outlined all of depth candidates that are currently in the organization.  Kahun has shown he is a legit middle six forward with two solid NHL seasons under his belt. MoJo is still here and is a solid 2/3 LW who can play up if necessary.  Cozens has Reinhart production potential. While you have written off Mitts and Thompson, I respectfully disagree. Both should be top 9 forwards as early as next year.  Almost no NHL team except TB have the forwards who are top 6 talent playing outside the top 6.  Most teams need a young player to step up and produce if a VO gets hurt and I think we are getting close to that place.  As I written over and over again, Jbot must get a 2C this off-season. He must not throw Cozens into that role.  If he does, I’ll switch sides.

I honestly do not know how to explain this to you further. There is no one outside of the players you are listing here. I have not written off Mitts and Thompson but they have done nothing to prove they can be top 6 forwards in the NHL. Also I don't consider either a prospect after over 100 NHL games played. 

To the bolded. We are not. We are on defense but the forward ranks are Cozens... and that's it. There are no young players to step up. That level of talent does not exist in the Sabres prospect pool and has never ever ever been addressed with this GM. 

Edited by LGR4GM
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I think you need to remove Jack's and Sam's production when comparing GMTM to JBot.

Their improvement should not bee seen as JBot's.

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58 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Name me another team that’s done better at acquiring players over the last few years. Nobody has come close in quantity/quality except Toronto— and hows that working for them? 
 

Lehner was an untreated alcoholic that had no possible future on this team. Murray spent a first round pick to get a goalie who refused to do shootouts and was so miserable in Buffalo he was left to tackle on the worst vices on his own until the new GM got him into rehab. You see that as Botterill’s fault?

In what world was Buffalo ever going to re sign an enigma like Evander Kane?  Even if we were winning he was gone.  We gained by his subtraction.  Eichel became a top player when Kane stopped ruining all zone possession.

ROR being an ownership thing couldn’t be more obvious. Guess you get to live on the truth never coming out. 
 

Hutton was actually good last season. This seasons epic collapse is unprecedented. Also, find me a middling team who survives losing their starting goaltender?  Teams riding hot goaltenders is the largest correlation with playoffs and playoff success (or coaching success).  And all those goalies were the greatest thing since buttered bread until they suddenly weren’t. Recent examples: Quick, Crawford, Murray.  No team is immune to sudden goalie overthink into stink collapse syndrome.
 

I never mentioned Mittelstadt, but it’s not like the other draft picks shortly after him are anything better even at this point in time.  I’m not sure what more Jokiharju has to do to prove it?  Yeah he’s had a few bad games, but he’s also a teenager that has way overperformed all his peers at the same age.  even Dahlin as far as the defensive side goes. 

 

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

I remember when Carolina won the cup last year and the Wild won the cup a few years back

 

Maybe posting models that don’t correlate strongly with playoff performance is bad statistical analysis. 

 

13 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Can we stop pushing the lie that Botterill hasn’t replaced ROR’s offense? In GMTMs last season they scored 199 goals in 82 games. 60 games in this season they’re at 193.

As our defensive zone turnarounds has improved, our standards have shifted. Good thing, but Rome also wasn’t built in a day. 

What’s the Rsq and p-value for xGF vs final team ranking?

All of the bolded are obnoxious.  This is not the way to express disagreement here.

As for the first bolded -- that might be flipped around on you to note that you are similarly taking the benefit of not knowing the truth in your assertion that Kane wasn't going to re-sign here.

As for teams doing better in acquiring talent -- off the top of my head, I'd say Boston, Philly, Carolina and Vegas.  Frankly I think a more realistic question is which teams have done worse?

Finally, the assertion that Hutton was good last year is nonsense.  Like this year, he had a good start and then fell completely off the table.

 

51 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The criticisms of Jbot are valid.  The team is only marginally better in the standings then the one he inherited. He has failed to replace ROR and therefore has failed to build a team with a decent offense.  He has made some bad moves such as Scandella for Frolik, but has also made some excellent moves such as Skinner for Pu, Jokiharju for Nylander, Kahun for Sheary and Erod, Scandella and Pommers for Ennis and Foligno.

Many of his UFA signings have failed, although the first year, I personally feel he tanked the team,.

However, he has completely retooled the defense from the crap TM left him (Dahlin, Montour, Miller and Jokiharju in with Bogo, Franson, Kulikov, Gorges out) and the team is better for it.

What the critics fail to acknowledge is that there was literally nothing in the system from which to supplement the roster.  Jbot was nearly starting from scratch.  The best and only legit prospects in Rochester were the marginal Nylander and Guhle who both are AAAA players.  3 years later Guhle is still bouncing back and forth from the AHL and Nylander is a depth forward for the Blackhawks.  From 3 years of drafting for TM starting 6 years ago, the Sabres only have 3 players and 2 were 2nd overall picks.  If Asplund somehow becomes a full-time NHL player (3 pts in 29 NHL games isn't a great start) we'll have a 4th player.  To date from 25 draft picks, TM managed to find only 5 NHL players including Nylander (who Jbot wisely converted into Jokiharju) and Lemieux.  If you want to know why we have no depth, look no further then TM's drafting.

It's funny but someone here actually criticized Jbot for not finding NHL players immediately from his draft choices, except Dahlin.  Really?  He has had 3 draft classes and 4 players are currently playing Pro hockey in Dahlin, Mitts, Bryson and UPL (two 1st rd picks, 1 2nd and a 4th rd pick).  That is a very unreasonable criticism.  As we have seen with the development of guys like Johansson or Olofsson it can take 5-6 years for some of these guys to reach their potential.  That said don't be surprised when we wake up next fall and Cozens and Mitts join Dahlin in the NHL and Rochester has UPL, Pekar, Bryson, Davidsson, and possibly Weissbach and Laaksonnen. 

The critics say well he had ROR, Jack and Sam (who we have a whole thread discussing trading him).  Correct he did, but who else on that roster was thought to be a guaranteed core piece?  Kane was walking as soon as his contract was up.  This board has discussed and wanted nearly every other holdover from TM's last team gone including, Bogo, Moulson, Erod, Lehner, McCabe, Risto, Larry, and Girgensons gone.  Jbot has obligated and moved on from many of them, but the 4 he kept he has right to keep them.   

So the question going forward is this franchise heading in the right direction? When Jbot got here this team was dead and had no future. The defense was slow and ineffective, the No.1 goalie had mental health issues, the pipeline was nearly void of talent except VO who was still in Europe, Rochester was a celler dweller annually, the Sabres were in cap hell and all he really had at forward was ROR, Jack and Sam.

I've argued and will continue to believe that the entire organization is better now then 3 years.  We have a winning program in Roch, a much much deeper pipeline with potential top end players, our NHL defense is vastly improved, and at forward we have 4 top 6 forwards with some potentially very good middle six forwards like Kahun and Cozens.  We also have cap space to work with.  This team has a future.  We are really just a couple of moves, like a 2C from being a playoff team.  That wasn't the case 3 years ago.  

Therefore I think Jbot deserves one more year to see if he can get his vision on the ice at the NHL level.  I think he's close, but I also understand the critics who say that he traded ROR and hasn't replaced him for two years, which is an error that deserves to get him fired. 

I think the Pegula's agree with me however.  

1st bolded -- of course we'll never know, but I think there is NFW that JB intended to tank.

2nd bolded -- there is zero reason to think Mitts will be a good NHL player next year.  And "joining Dahlin" gives JB too much credit.  Of course Dahlin is in the NHL at this point.  Anyone here, and certainly anyone running an NHL team, would've drafted Dahlin.

3rd bolded -- the "cap hell" claim has been disproven.  It's simply false.  Also, the alleged cap genius, by adding overpaid losers like Frolik, has cost the team some of its cap space for next year and, most importantly, has spent close to the cap each year while still delivering bottom-of-the-barrel results.  Again, anyone here could've done the same thing.

4th bolded -- no.  Other than Cozens there are zero forwards to be excited about.  I agree that there are good D prospects.

 

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

And?  We have 4 top 6 forwards locked up, how many more do we need?  We have a top line, we need to complete the middle 6.  With Kahun, Cozens, Mitts, and Thompson, we have good candidates for the middle six in the system. Unlike others here, I'm not willing to write off guys who are former 1st rd picks who are 21 and 22 years old.  Now add guys like Weissbach, Routsalainen and if they sign the kid from Finland, plus whomever we draft this year, we have plenty of additional candidates for the middle six in the near future.  

@dudacek you said you don't believe that Jokiharju is a core piece.  I disagree.  Nik Hjalmarsson was a core piece of the great Hawks teams and I think Jokiharju is that kind of player for us.  

2 of the 4 aren't locked up -- Reino and Olofsson are unsigned RFAs.  I expect both to be re-signed and back in Buffalo next year, but both situations will require savvy GM'ing.  I'm far from confident that JB will do it correctly.

I agree that Joker is a core piece.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Sure, but since you have demonstrated knowledge of stats this is a pretty bad attempt and doing what you ask. Why? Well because in 2017 the average goals was 2.77 versus now it is 3.02. So team scoring might have gone up but it did not go up when weighted against the league, therefore it did not go up in any meaningful way.

So it's... been replaced.  Just isn't better.  He's focused on defense, which is better..  Which is my argument.

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36 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

 

All of the bolded are obnoxious.  This is not the way to express disagreement here.

As for the first bolded -- that might be flipped around on you to note that you are similarly taking the benefit of not knowing the truth in your assertion that Kane wasn't going to re-sign here.

As for teams doing better in acquiring talent -- off the top of my head, I'd say Boston, Philly, Carolina and Vegas.  Frankly I think a more realistic question is which teams have done worse?

Finally, the assertion that Hutton was good last year is nonsense.  Like this year, he had a good start and then fell completely off the table.

 

1st bolded -- of course we'll never know, but I think there is NFW that JB intended to tank.

2nd bolded -- there is zero reason to think Mitts will be a good NHL player next year.  And "joining Dahlin" gives JB too much credit.  Of course Dahlin is in the NHL at this point.  Anyone here, and certainly anyone running an NHL team, would've drafted Dahlin.

3rd bolded -- the "cap hell" claim has been disproven.  It's simply false.  Also, the alleged cap genius, by adding overpaid losers like Frolik, has cost the team some of its cap space for next year and, most importantly, has spent close to the cap each year while still delivering bottom-of-the-barrel results.  Again, anyone here could've done the same thing.

4th bolded -- no.  Other than Cozens there are zero forwards to be excited about.  I agree that there are good D prospects.

 

2 of the 4 aren't locked up -- Reino and Olofsson are unsigned RFAs.  I expect both to be re-signed and back in Buffalo next year, but both situations will require savvy GM'ing.  I'm far from confident that JB will do it correctly.

I agree that Joker is a core piece.

 

 

When will Botterill be fired, he killed my chickens and pooped on my lawn?  This sentiment repeated ad nauseum isn't obnoxious?

Kane was not a fit, played super low IQ hockey with a team built on a core of 'smart' players, repeatedly went AWOL, part of the locker room cultural problems.  Kane was not going to re-sign here.  And it's better he didn't.  And we managed to get a 1st out of him when nobody thought this was possible.

Vast majority of teams in the NHL only make 1-3 moves in the off-season.  I haven't looked into the numbers (not sure where to easily find this), but I'm willing to bet we've had the highest roster turnover for three straight seasons.  When I make statements about 'filler', all these 1-2 year UFA or cap dump deals is exactly what I'm referring to-- attempts to fix bad cap structural problems with the year 2021 in mind.

Carter Hutton---

2017 (with STL) GA%: 79 (good goalie that we signed, propped up by a good system, but Lehner supposedly was under Bylsma and never got below 89)

2018 GA%: 102 (average goalie-- which upgrades to 'good' for a back-up/1B)

2019: GA% 113 - eek.  The same collapse Matt Murray did for Pittsburgh

 

Cap hell has been disproven?  We could have signed ridiculous contracts and been Toronto, which got worse after all those failed attempts.  His first season he played the 'whatever UFA who won't demand 4+ year contracts' market and got us players who, well, didn't continue in the NHL.  So he moved on to acquire cap-dumps instead to bring in that leadership.  And all those contracts are done by this year's end.  Why do you care about Frolik's cap hit?-- it was dead even with Scandella.

 

Complaining about the lack of forward depth when we just came from a position of having no forward depth, no defensive depth, and no goalie depth just seems like the weakest argument one could make.  He made a decision, and that was to build from the back-end out.  Either you disagree with the approach, or you curse the UFA players themselves for not signing higher dollar offers to live in Buffalo--blaming Botterill when he didn't have the ammo to fix the whole team overnight is just... trite

 

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1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

When will Botterill be fired, he killed my chickens and pooped on my lawn?  This sentiment repeated ad nauseum isn't obnoxious?

Kane was not a fit, played super low IQ hockey with a team built on a core of 'smart' players, repeatedly went AWOL, part of the locker room cultural problems.  Kane was not going to re-sign here.  And it's better he didn't.  And we managed to get a 1st out of him when nobody thought this was possible.

Vast majority of teams in the NHL only make 1-3 moves in the off-season.  I haven't looked into the numbers (not sure where to easily find this), but I'm willing to bet we've had the highest roster turnover for three straight seasons.  When I make statements about 'filler', all these 1-2 year UFA or cap dump deals is exactly what I'm referring to-- attempts to fix bad cap structural problems with the year 2021 in mind.

Carter Hutton---

2017 (with STL) GA%: 79 (good goalie that we signed, propped up by a good system, but Lehner supposedly was under Bylsma and never got below 89)

2018 GA%: 102 (average goalie-- which upgrades to 'good' for a back-up/1B)

2019: GA% 113 - eek.  The same collapse Matt Murray did for Pittsburgh

 

Cap hell has been disproven?  We could have signed ridiculous contracts and been Toronto, which got worse after all those failed attempts.  His first season he played the 'whatever UFA who won't demand 4+ year contracts' market and got us players who, well, didn't continue in the NHL.  So he moved on to acquire cap-dumps instead to bring in that leadership.  And all those contracts are done by this year's end.  Why do you care about Frolik's cap hit?-- it was dead even with Scandella.

 

Complaining about the lack of forward depth when we just came from a position of having no forward depth, no defensive depth, and no goalie depth just seems like the weakest argument one could make.  He made a decision, and that was to build from the back-end out.  Either you disagree with the approach, or you curse the UFA players themselves for not signing higher dollar offers to live in Buffalo--blaming Botterill when he didn't have the ammo to fix the whole team overnight is just... trite

 

I truly believe you are Botteril’s agent.  

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2 minutes ago, freester said:

I truly believe you are Botteril’s agent.  

People really be arguing with a dude that, in late July of 2019, after our full 2019-2020 team was assembled, called Jason Botterill the greatest GM in team history 

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3 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

When will Botterill be fired, he killed my chickens and pooped on my lawn?  This sentiment repeated ad nauseum isn't obnoxious?

Kane was not a fit, played super low IQ hockey with a team built on a core of 'smart' players, repeatedly went AWOL, part of the locker room cultural problems.  Kane was not going to re-sign here.  And it's better he didn't.  And we managed to get a 1st out of him when nobody thought this was possible.

Vast majority of teams in the NHL only make 1-3 moves in the off-season.  I haven't looked into the numbers (not sure where to easily find this), but I'm willing to bet we've had the highest roster turnover for three straight seasons.  When I make statements about 'filler', all these 1-2 year UFA or cap dump deals is exactly what I'm referring to-- attempts to fix bad cap structural problems with the year 2021 in mind.

Carter Hutton---

2017 (with STL) GA%: 79 (good goalie that we signed, propped up by a good system, but Lehner supposedly was under Bylsma and never got below 89)

2018 GA%: 102 (average goalie-- which upgrades to 'good' for a back-up/1B)

2019: GA% 113 - eek.  The same collapse Matt Murray did for Pittsburgh

 

Cap hell has been disproven?  We could have signed ridiculous contracts and been Toronto, which got worse after all those failed attempts.  His first season he played the 'whatever UFA who won't demand 4+ year contracts' market and got us players who, well, didn't continue in the NHL.  So he moved on to acquire cap-dumps instead to bring in that leadership.  And all those contracts are done by this year's end.  Why do you care about Frolik's cap hit?-- it was dead even with Scandella.

 

Complaining about the lack of forward depth when we just came from a position of having no forward depth, no defensive depth, and no goalie depth just seems like the weakest argument one could make.  He made a decision, and that was to build from the back-end out.  Either you disagree with the approach, or you curse the UFA players themselves for not signing higher dollar offers to live in Buffalo--blaming Botterill when he didn't have the ammo to fix the whole team overnight is just... trite

 

Evander Kane might not have been the right fit for the Sabres, but he’s probably one of the most fit Sabres of all time. 

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On 3/20/2020 at 12:47 PM, Kruppstahl said:

As I wrote several weeks ago, this unusual delay/premature end to the season only serves to help Botterill.

We would all have been much better served by the regular season finishing as normal, the Sabres doing very little winning, if any winning at all, and home crowds booing and chanting Botterill must go toward the very end.

May have forced Terry's hand.

 

Moreover, I don't think it just likely ensured he be back next year, I have very little doubt that Botterill uses this opportunity to bump his "plan" back another year. No chance he still views this coming season as his "big year", as many have theorized, with a likely shortened off season. 

People should be ready for another punt year if the GM remains. Warned everyone last off season, might as well start now again. Nothing much else to do here. 

19 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Besides Skinner, Dahlin, Jokiharju, Montour, and now probably Kahun.  It's also likely that Mitts and Cozens become core pieces over the next two seasons and UPL soon after.

DR drafted Girgensons, Risto, McCabe, Ullmark. and acquired Larsson

TM's Contribution?  Reinhart (a 2nd over all pick he missed on who is arguably the 8th best player from that draft class), Eichel, and Okposo.  He also gets credit for drafting Olofsson, but it was JBot who brought him to NA and signed him to his ELC.

I, for one, give credit to the skate sharpener who did his skates and got him on that ice. 

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12 hours ago, freester said:

UPL and Mitts have proven nothing. UPL is just as likely to end up as a Carter Hutton as he is a Hasek. Neither has dominated in AHL or even looked very good. Hopefully they both have great years in Rochester next year.  Montour is a. mediocre defenseman not worth a first round pick.  Skinner is the worst contract in the league. Cozens could be great or another Mitts, we don’t know. Botteril deserves no credit for VO but I am intrigued by Kahun. Kahun has looked good in the short period I’ve seen him.  
 

JBOT should be fired but I think due to shortened season he is kept for another year to wreck further havoc on the organization. I just hope he is not permitted to give out long term big money contracts or trade away key pieces.  

Botterill has done most things bad, and the things he hasn't can ALL be filed under one of my favourite Botterill descriptors - "base level competence". He hasn't creatively moved a bad contract, signed any value contracts (that won't bite us in the ass later, see: Reinhart) or made any kind of special trade that set us on our way up the standings a little bit. Skinner was handed to him on a platter and he found a way to arguably ruin the asset with a ridiculous contract. 

The Sabres were on pace for slightly under 81 points this season. He won't have achieved a total Murray was fired for shorty after, in 3 full seasons. And that's with an emerging superstar than Murray didn't have. 

He's not a poor GM, he's among the most unfit we've seen in this league. Have mercy on this man and facilitate a move for him to a position that's more in line with his skill set. 

Edited by Thorny
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7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Well this is a crock of $#!t. TIMES 2

And further how many teams that don't make the playoffs, win the Stanley Cup. Keep being a Botterill apologist. I note you never want to bring up ROR when you talk about how good we have it under Botts. A guy dumb enough to trade Scandella for Frolik.

The Botterill apologists should put a time frame on how many free pass years the GM should be allotted to show the first quantum of improvement. Apparently there is absolutely no statute of limitations in sight for the horrors Murray inflicted on this organization. 

The deeper pipeline stuff is so weird. We have one of the weakest pipelines in the league, especially at forward. There's nothing there after Cozens. People point to fringe NHLers like Ruotsalainen as if other organizations, that are already good, don't have their own "Ruotsalainens" too. Every organization has a handful of players like that. 

Our 'fixed defense" is 20th in the league in GA. Hang a banner. 

Edited by Thorny
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If Terry and Kim can make what appears to be a colossally poor decision as it pertains to game-day workers, why should we believe he is going pull the cord on the GM?  He is literally the 6th wealthiest NHL owner and struggles to commit payments for hourly employees who are clearly suffering. Jeremy Jacobs is getting roasted in Boston (and rightfully so) for an equally insensitive and business first attitude.  Probably not a coincidence they are friends.  But the Pegula's beyond bad decision making as it pertains to part-time workers amid the pandemic seems par for the course.  Exiting JB early would require forethought, awareness, and perception.  In other words, opposite of what has  recently manifested from the executive suites at the Harbor Center.   I felt like a GM change was a 50/50 before the shortened season, and feel like it has fallen to 30/70 at this point. 

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12 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

If Terry and Kim can make what appears to be a colossally poor decision as it pertains to game-day workers, why should we believe he is going pull the cord on the GM?  He is literally the 6th wealthiest NHL owner and struggles to commit payments for hourly employees who are clearly suffering. Jeremy Jacobs is getting roasted in Boston (and rightfully so) for an equally insensitive and business first attitude.  Probably not a coincidence they are friends.  But the Pegula's beyond bad decision making as it pertains to part-time workers amid the pandemic seems par for the course.  Exiting JB early would require forethought, awareness, and perception.  In other words, opposite of what has  recently manifested from the executive suites at the Harbor Center.   I felt like a GM change was a 50/50 before the shortened season, and feel like it has fallen to 30/70 at this point. 

I thought Jeremy Jacobs also is the one who employs the FNC workers and would also be the guy not paying them.  That evil contract was signed a long time ago wasn't it?

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1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

I thought Jeremy Jacobs also is the one who employs the FNC workers and would also be the guy not paying them.  That evil contract was signed a long time ago wasn't it?

The concession workers (and perhaps others I’m not aware of) ARE Delaware North employees NOT PSE employees. Some are conveniently choosing to ignore that. 
 

The hospitality workers that are PSE employees fall under janitorial, Lexus club, 200 level employees, ushers on all levels. And similar employees at Harbor Center and the restaurants there.

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51 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

The concession workers (and perhaps others I’m not aware of) ARE Delaware North employees NOT PSE employees. Some are conveniently choosing to ignore that. 
 

The hospitality workers that are PSE employees fall under janitorial, Lexus club, 200 level employees, ushers on all levels. And similar employees at Harbor Center and the restaurants there.

Do we have any idea when Delaware North contract is up for renewal?  I don’t put it past Jacobs to hang this over their head as he’s also the ‘big wig’ in the Owners circle. 

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On 3/24/2020 at 8:57 AM, Brawndo said:

 

Agree about Dahlin. 

Edited by Thorny

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On 3/20/2020 at 12:39 PM, LGR4GM said:

The guy is terrible. Why is he still here? Fire him this minute and be done with it. 

 

That graph is honestly so funny

I'm picturing all NHL teams in a race. Jason comes along, kicks the Sabres' knees out so they hit the ground as other teams keep on going. He helps us to our feet, saying, "there, being on your feet is progress compared to being on the ground" ignoring that we're in the same spot we were in before he got there, and that nobody else needed to fall to the ground in this race. He then gives us fight milk and ratty shoes and claims we are set up to compete again with those teams way up ahead 

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On 3/23/2020 at 12:11 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

The criticisms of Jbot are valid.  The team is only marginally better in the standings then the one he inherited. He has failed to replace ROR and therefore has failed to build a team with a decent offense.  He has made some bad moves such as Scandella for Frolik, but has also made some excellent moves such as Skinner for Pu, Jokiharju for Nylander, Kahun for Sheary and Erod, Scandella and Pommers for Ennis and Foligno.

Many of his UFA signings have failed, although the first year, I personally feel he tanked the team,.

However, he has completely retooled the defense from the crap TM left him (Dahlin, Montour, Miller and Jokiharju in with Bogo, Franson, Kulikov, Gorges out) and the team is better for it.

What the critics fail to acknowledge is that there was literally nothing in the system from which to supplement the roster.  Jbot was nearly starting from scratch.  The best and only legit prospects in Rochester were the marginal Nylander and Guhle who both are AAAA players.  3 years later Guhle is still bouncing back and forth from the AHL and Nylander is a depth forward for the Blackhawks.  From 3 years of drafting for TM starting 6 years ago, the Sabres only have 3 players and 2 were 2nd overall picks.  If Asplund somehow becomes a full-time NHL player (3 pts in 29 NHL games isn't a great start) we'll have a 4th player.  To date from 25 draft picks, TM managed to find only 5 NHL players including Nylander (who Jbot wisely converted into Jokiharju) and Lemieux.  If you want to know why we have no depth, look no further then TM's drafting.

It's funny but someone here actually criticized Jbot for not finding NHL players immediately from his draft choices, except Dahlin.  Really?  He has had 3 draft classes and 4 players are currently playing Pro hockey in Dahlin, Mitts, Bryson and UPL (two 1st rd picks, 1 2nd and a 4th rd pick).  That is a very unreasonable criticism.  As we have seen with the development of guys like Johansson or Olofsson it can take 5-6 years for some of these guys to reach their potential.  That said don't be surprised when we wake up next fall and Cozens and Mitts join Dahlin in the NHL and Rochester has UPL, Pekar, Bryson, Davidsson, and possibly Weissbach and Laaksonnen. 

The critics say well he had ROR, Jack and Sam (who we have a whole thread discussing trading him).  Correct he did, but who else on that roster was thought to be a guaranteed core piece?  Kane was walking as soon as his contract was up.  This board has discussed and wanted nearly every other holdover from TM's last team gone including, Bogo, Moulson, Erod, Lehner, McCabe, Risto, Larry, and Girgensons gone.  Jbot has obligated and moved on from many of them, but the 4 he kept he has right to keep them.   

So the question going forward is this franchise heading in the right direction? When Jbot got here this team was dead and had no future. The defense was slow and ineffective, the No.1 goalie had mental health issues, the pipeline was nearly void of talent except VO who was still in Europe, Rochester was a celler dweller annually, the Sabres were in cap hell and all he really had at forward was ROR, Jack and Sam.

I've argued and will continue to believe that the entire organization is better now then 3 years.  We have a winning program in Roch, a much much deeper pipeline with potential top end players, our NHL defense is vastly improved, and at forward we have 4 top 6 forwards with some potentially very good middle six forwards like Kahun and Cozens.  We also have cap space to work with.  This team has a future.  We are really just a couple of moves, like a 2C from being a playoff team.  That wasn't the case 3 years ago.  

Therefore I think Jbot deserves one more year to see if he can get his vision on the ice at the NHL level.  I think he's close, but I also understand the critics who say that he traded ROR and hasn't replaced him for two years, which is an error that deserves to get him fired. 

I think the Pegula's agree with me however.  

This is basically my stance on Botterill’s performance as well.  

I feel that the team is in a better position than they were when he took over.  He has done some good things.  His main downfall to date is his inability to assemble a competent forward group.

There are certainly reasons to want him gone and reasons to think that he deserves just one more year.  I’m on the fence with him.

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The problem is, if he gets "one more year", it's going to be apparent heading into the season again whether he did enough. So we'd be sitting in September/October, or whenever the season starts, already looking at a write-off if he has another poor off season. We know he's not one to supplement the roster in any meaningful way in-season.

The other obvious issue is, I think people are being dishonest with themselves if they think this coming, likely off-season shortened season is going to be counted by anyone on the fence as the "final straw" if things go sour. There's already a built in excuse for Botterill. We know GMs value job security most, some more than others, I can't see the GM failing to cash in that chip, nor the owners being difficult to convince. 

If he gets this season, he's getting another two. He's getting the full 5 year grind - and his "win now" season will be pushed back to 2021-2022. That'll give us a Jack: Age 25-29 window to find real success while Jack is in his prime. 

Edited by Thorny
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2 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

Has there been any news on the future for Botterill?

Signed to a 5 year extension. Time to break out the champagne. 🤮

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1 hour ago, freester said:

Signed to a 5 year extension. Time to break out the champagne. 🤮

Is this a joke???

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14 hours ago, freester said:

Signed to a 5 year extension. Time to break out the champagne. 🤮

OMFG......

This is horrible news. I don't know if I can take 5 more years on top of what he has left, which is what? 1 more year on his current contract, correct? That means 6 more years of this?

😉

Edited by Scottysabres

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