COVID-19

[Wyldnwoody44]

6 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Isn't the whole point of medicine, healthcare, modern society, technology, to allow people to get as much out of their lives as possible in the way that makes them happy?

Those people "scurrying around like insects" see this as a bump in the road. They see life beyond the bump.

Just because you'd be satisfied with dying tomorrow doesn't mean everyone else is.

Seek help.

This is the funniest thing I've read on here, y'all people have lost your damn minds. Seek help? That's rich

Medicine is about collecting money and prolonging lives far past a time they should be. Ever visit a nursing home?! 

Instead of quality of life we are focusing on quantity. It's not really that hard to see. Right now quality is in the basement. 

Also, I never said I would be "satisfyed" dying tomorrow, I simply said that I could live with it as it's out of my hands, don't change up my words. 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Wyldnwoody44

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

This is the funniest thing I've read on here, y'all people have lost your damn minds. Seek help? That's rich

Medicine is about collecting money and prolonging lives far past a time they should be. Ever visit a nursing home?! 

Instead of quality of life we are focusing on quantity. It's not really that hard to see. Right now quality is in the basement. 

 

 

For what, a couple months? Big deal. People will get over this a lot easier than they would get over their loved ones dying because people like you think this is just the worst.

I know you seem to think that this whole thing is an overreaction, but I think you might want to turn the mirror on yourself. It seems to me that you're the one overreacting to what will be seen as a small sacrifice made by a society that likes to at least pretend to believe it cares about human life. Debate that all you want, but most people are making the effort and that shows me a level of selflessness that I wasn't sure was still alive here in this country.

Let a couple million people die "because death happens" is something a sociopath would say. I'm saying this as a friend: you may not want to continue this line of discussion.

[Wyldnwoody44]

1 minute ago, darksabre said:

For what, a couple months? Big deal. People will get over this a lot easier than they would get over their loved ones dying because people like you think this is just the worst.

I know you seem to think that this whole thing is an overreaction, but I think you might want to turn the mirror on yourself. It seems to me that you're the one overreacting to what will be seen as a small sacrifice made by a society that likes to at least pretend to believe it cares about human life. Debate that all you want, but most people are making the effort and that shows me a level of selflessness that I wasn't sure was still alive here in this country.

Let a couple million people die "because death happens" is something a sociopath would say. I'm saying this as a friend: you may not want to continue this line of discussion.

That's fine, I'm outta this place for a while... A ***** sociopath, go F*ck yourself

[SwampD]

23 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I just don't understand the big deal with death, we are put here for a finite amount of time for whatever reason. I firmly believe when it's my time, it's my time. If an avalanche takes me out, a virus, a bee sting, car accident, it doesn't matter, it's over, and I don't get to decide when my time is done. 

Sure there is grieving and some pain with death, but that's part of this life, and so is living and enjoying it. Everyone here that knows me at all, knows that I'm trying to get every last bit of enjoyment out of my time here; I refuse to let a virus change that mentality. It honestly breaks my heart going out in public and seeing people scurrying around like scared little insects, what kind of life is that.

This is a pretty myopic viewpoint.

There’s also a difference between being scared and being careful.

You are young and healthy, and therefore this thing isn’t a real threat to you. To others it is. Others might want see their kids graduate or their grandkids born. I know that’s not scaling a mountain halfway around the globe, but I imagine it’s pretty thrilling for them.

[darksabre]

5 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

That's fine, I'm outta this place for a while... A ***** sociopath, go F*ck yourself

I think that would be for the best. There's a fine line between pragmatism and malice and I think you need to meditate on that a bit.

[LGR4GM]

21 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

This is the funniest thing I've read on here, y'all people have lost your damn minds. Seek help? That's rich

Medicine is about collecting money and prolonging lives far past a time they should be. Ever visit a nursing home?! 

Instead of quality of life we are focusing on quantity. It's not really that hard to see. Right now quality is in the basement. 

Also, I never said I would be "satisfyed" dying tomorrow, I simply said that I could live with it as it's out of my hands, don't change up my words. 

 

Weird. I have more time to do the things I want. I have spent more time living in the last 2 months than in the previous 2. I have time for walks and to do yard work. Sat outside the other day with a beer and didn't have to worry constantly about what I wasn't getting done. Life slowed down and honestly in some ways it needed. My quality of life right now is pretty good. Better than scurrying to work every day to work a fake 40 hour work week even though jobs can get done in half the time now. There are some lessons to be learned from this and 1 of them is that non manufacturing jobs don't need to keep you locked in an office for 40 hours a week. There's more to life than working. So in the end my "quality" has in many ways improved. 

[LGR4GM]

I want to add another thing. My significant other used to work 2 jobs. Her full time job and then anywhere from 16-25 hours a week at a second job to help pay student loans. Since this started, she isn't working her second job. We have had more time together. We find social distancing adventures and do them. We are making our home a real home. Our relationship is better because we are both less stressed and see more of eachother. I even finally hung out with all her college friends on a video call. Never have really been able to meet them all. It was great. 

Woody you said something about living life and I think my issue with your stance is you haven't figured out you can still live life, safely, in the age of COVID. Sure this can't go on forever. Risk will be involved but right now, I think we should be looking at the positive things we have gained. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by LGR4GM

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

Let a couple million people die "because death happens" is something a sociopath would say. I'm saying this as a friend: you may not want to continue this line of discussion.

But @Wyldnwoody44 didn't say that.  He said this:

Quote

In the end the disease is going to bear out similar numbers irregardless of what we do, we'll just be prolonging it further while causing other negative effects this way.

In other words:  the point of social distancing isn't to prevent people from getting the virus, it's to prevent too many people from getting it at once and thus overwhelming the HC system.

The HC system is far less taxed at present than was expected to be the case, even when social distancing is factored in.

If we are at the point where re-opening would not overtax the HC system -- and no one knows the answer on that, but we'll find out pretty soon as most states are re-opening -- then keeping social distancing in effect will not reduce the total number of deaths from the virus.

In the meantime, you've insulted someone who was working brutal hours on the front lines against this virus, was highly stressed out and was here looking for some friendship and support.

[darksabre]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

But @Wyldnwoody44 didn't say that.  He said this:

In other words:  the point of social distancing isn't to prevent people from getting the virus, it's to prevent too many people from getting it at once and thus overwhelming the HC system.

The HC system is far less taxed at present than was expected to be the case, even when social distancing is factored in.

If we are at the point where re-opening would not overtax the HC system -- and no one knows the answer on that, but we'll find out pretty soon as most states are re-opening -- then keeping social distancing in effect will not reduce the total number of deaths from the virus.

In the meantime, you've insulted someone who was working brutal hours on the front lines against this virus, was highly stressed out and was here looking for some friendship and support.

This is all based on Woody's erroneous belief that the "numbers" are going to be the same regardless of how we handle the problem.

This is patently false, but don't let that get in the way of another classic ham-fisted response.

He accepted LGR's "several million". He didn't see any issue with that. He doesn't see any reason that "number" should be lower.

He does not see an issue with disparaging regular people who are simply trying to do what they think is right.

But by all means defend these things. Why should anyone expect better from you either?

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

So you are comfortable with several million people dying? Is that correct?

What models have predicted "several million people dying" since the end of February?

[SwampD]

I guess the question is, is the healthcare system saving lives?

Are there people alive now who would have passed had The tristate area not quadrupled its ER capacity?

If you think no, then let ride. If you think yes, then SIP.

 

[sabremike]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

But @Wyldnwoody44 didn't say that.  He said this:

In other words:  the point of social distancing isn't to prevent people from getting the virus, it's to prevent too many people from getting it at once and thus overwhelming the HC system.

The HC system is far less taxed at present than was expected to be the case, even when social distancing is factored in.

If we are at the point where re-opening would not overtax the HC system -- and no one knows the answer on that, but we'll find out pretty soon as most states are re-opening -- then keeping social distancing in effect will not reduce the total number of deaths from the virus.

In the meantime, you've insulted someone who was working brutal hours on the front lines against this virus, was highly stressed out and was here looking for some friendship and support.

I'd also like to add this: many people seem to be ignoring the concept of the Seen and Unseen. We can see the actual number of people listed as dying from the virus. What is going unseen is that the ongoing lockdown is also killing and destroying people. People have lost their jobs and in the incompetent cesspool known as NYS if you file for unemployment your claim will be processed on the 10th of Never (and that's if you are somehow fortunate enough to get it successfully sent on the website that is designed as well as something you would see on Geocities) which I am all too familiar with. People are unable to get needed medical treatment because it has all been cancelled. People won't go to a hospital under any circumstance because they have been terrified into thinking that they are filled to the brim with people suffering with this (like a neighbor who has a torn/broken ankle that is purple but has decided to self medicate with a dozen tall boys instead). There is the long term damage of people gaining massive amounts of weight from being inside with nothing to do. I lost over 100 pounds over the last decade and it did wonders for my health, if I gain it back that has a far greater chance of doing me in than the virus. There is the mental health damage from being under de facto house arrest, having no job, nowhere to go and having no purpose in life. That last one is such an important thing that nobody seems to understand: My job at Kohl's gave me more than a paycheck, it gives me a feeling of accomplishing something and being productive (which is why while an Unemployment Check would certainly help it isn't a true substitute for what I have really lost). And obviously economic destruction and economic collapse cause poverty, which history has taught us brings death in multiple ways. In fact, the areas that were hardest hit were places that were poor and filled with people with underlying health conditions that made them far more susceptible to the virus. I guess my general point is that just viewing this as just a medical problem is just as big a mistake as viewing it solely as an economic problem. And furthermore people accusing anyone who doesn't agree with them of not caring about people dying is being absurd. Do you seriously think either Trump or Cuomo want people to die? No, they both want this thing to do as little damage as possible but disagree on how to accomplish that.

[nfreeman]

21 minutes ago, darksabre said:

This is all based on Woody's erroneous belief that the "numbers" are going to be the same regardless of how we handle the problem.

This is patently false, but don't let that get in the way of another classic ham-fisted response.

He accepted LGR's "several million". He didn't see any issue with that. He doesn't see any reason that "number" should be lower.

He does not see an issue with disparaging regular people who are simply trying to do what they think is right.

But by all means defend these things. Why should anyone expect better from you either?

Why do you think Woody is wrong that the numbers are going to be the same?  On what basis is this "patently false?"

And in response to Liger's "several million", Woody said that the numbers are going to be the same either way -- not that re-opening would increase the numbers by several million, or that he was fine with a differential of that magnitude.

As for "ham-fisted" -- you've now insulted 2 posters.  Why?  Because they disagree with you on something?

[PASabreFan]

dark is bringing it. Thank you. More gumption than I have. Enough deference.

[That Aud Smell]

i came in here for the first time just now, like

[Taro T]

21 minutes ago, darksabre said:

This is all based on Woody's erroneous belief that the "numbers" are going to be the same regardless of how we handle the problem.

This is patently false, but don't let that get in the way of another classic ham-fisted response.

He accepted LGR's "several million". He didn't see any issue with that. He doesn't see any reason that "number" should be lower.

He does not see an issue with disparaging regular people who are simply trying to do what they think is right.

But by all means defend these things. Why should anyone expect better from you either?

Are you sure that Woody is saying that?  It seems that he's saying the hospitals haven't been overwhelmed to the point they were in Italy (you know, the place CBS got footage of overwhelmed ERs and then passed it off as being in NYC & then one other US city) (even in NYC there weren't people dying because they couldn't get a ventilator & NYC was our ground zero once again) and hospital utilization is decreasing at present; which means the "flattening of the curve" happened and our healthcare system can handle the current caseload.  

With that being the case, we really are at the point where things can be opening back up.  We have a lot more material & understanding now that we didn't have 2 months ago.  If things appear to be trending poorly upon opening, they can always be relocked down.

Right now, there is no vaccine & though it seems there are likely effective treatments, how effective they are remains highly anecdotal.  So there appear to be 2 ways to protect those at high risk - either stay locked down until a vaccine is available (which may or not be effective & may literally take years to obtain) or develop herd immunity so that carriers of active virus remain rare enough that they won't cause a mass spread reaching those that are at high risk after the herd immunity has been obtained.  There's only 1 way to get herd immunity without a vaccine - those at low risk need to come in contact with it and develop their own immunity to it.

We need to be cautious for those at high risk, and it is right for each of us to be cognizant that there may be high risk individuals we come in contact with; but we can't generally stay closed down forever.  At some point supplies for essentials such as food will break down & also at some point stress related illnesses will be killing more than this disease will.  We aren't looking at a 1 variable equation.

My 2 cents.

 

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

I guess the question is, is the healthcare system saving lives?

Are there people alive now who would have passed had The tristate area not quadrupled its ER capacity?

If you think no, then let ride. If you think yes, then SIP.

 

That actions needed to be taken in March doesn't mean those same actions need to be taken in May.  Some likely still do; but not all.  Not sure why this is getting made out to be a continue to SIP or go back immediately to exactly the way things were on February 29 binary decision.

[SwampD]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Are you sure that Woody is saying that?  It seems that he's saying the hospitals haven't been overwhelmed to the point they were in Italy (you know, the place CBS got footage of overwhelmed ERs and then passed it off as being in NYC & then one other US city) (even in NYC there weren't people dying because they couldn't get a ventilator & NYC was our ground zero once again) and hospital utilization is decreasing at present; which means the "flattening of the curve" happened and our healthcare system can handle the current caseload.  

With that being the case, we really are at the point where things can be opening back up.  We have a lot more material & understanding now that we didn't have 2 months ago.  If things appear to be trending poorly upon opening, they can always be relocked down.

Right now, there is no vaccine & though it seems there are likely effective treatments, how effective they are remains highly anecdotal.  So there appear to be 2 ways to protect those at high risk - either stay locked down until a vaccine is available (which may or not be effective & may literally take years to obtain) or develop herd immunity so that carriers of active virus remain rare enough that they won't cause a mass spread reaching those that are at high risk after the herd immunity has been obtained.  There's only 1 way to get herd immunity without a vaccine - those at low risk need to come in contact with it and develop their own immunity to it.

We need to be cautious for those at high risk, and it is right for each of us to be cognizant that there may be high risk individuals we come in contact with; but we can't generally stay closed down forever.  At some point supplies for essentials such as food will break down & also at some point stress related illnesses will be killing more than this disease will.  We aren't looking at a 1 variable equation.

My 2 cents.

 

That actions needed to be taken in March doesn't mean those same actions need to be taken in May.  Some likely still do; but not all.  Not sure why this is getting made out to be a continue to SIP or go back immediately to exactly the way things were on February 29 binary decision.

Cuz Woody kinda made it into that.

As someone who has had to go to work every day, I want it to end just that everyone else can get back to work and I can take a ***** vacation.

[PASabreFan]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Weird. I have more time to do the things I want. I have spent more time living in the last 2 months than in the previous 2. I have time for walks and to do yard work. Sat outside the other day with a beer and didn't have to worry constantly about what I wasn't getting done. Life slowed down and honestly in some ways it needed. My quality of life right now is pretty good. Better than scurrying to work every day to work a fake 40 hour work week even though jobs can get done in half the time now. There are some lessons to be learned from this and 1 of them is that non manufacturing jobs don't need to keep you locked in an office for 40 hours a week. There's more to life than working. So in the end my "quality" has in many ways improved. 

This attitude, I think, will rule the future. For now, some very powerful people are doing everything they can to fight it. "Warriors."

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

But @Wyldnwoody44 didn't say that.  He said this:

In other words:  the point of social distancing isn't to prevent people from getting the virus, it's to prevent too many people from getting it at once and thus overwhelming the HC system.

The HC system is far less taxed at present than was expected to be the case, even when social distancing is factored in.

If we are at the point where re-opening would not overtax the HC system -- and no one knows the answer on that, but we'll find out pretty soon as most states are re-opening -- then keeping social distancing in effect will not reduce the total number of deaths from the virus.

In the meantime, you've insulted someone who was working brutal hours on the front lines against this virus, was highly stressed out and was here looking for some friendship and support.

I think Woody would say — maybe even did say — he hasn't been on the front lines (has worked in hospitals with few to no cases). IMHO that is clearly contributing to his take on this pandemic.

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

What models have predicted "several million people dying" since the end of February?

That model was based on doing nothing — the Woody plan. We don't hear about it anymore because we took another approach and it has generally worked. So the plan is a victim of its own success.

31 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I guess the question is, is the healthcare system saving lives?

Are there people alive now who would have passed had The tristate area not quadrupled its ER capacity?

If you think no, then let ride. If you think yes, then SIP.

 

People think of Covid 19 as either a turdburger or death. There are many people in the middle. Many people had to go to the hospital to get better. Where would all of those people have gone if the hospitals weren't accepting any more patients?

Edited May 7, 2020 by PASabreFan

[PASabreFan]

@sabremike from someone who has written some long paragraphs, would you mind breaking up your text a little?

[LGR4GM]

34 minutes ago, Taro T said:

What models have predicted "several million people dying" since the end of February?

The current modeling accounts for a 10% increase is contact if social distancing is ended. The upper level is around 200k deaths roughly. My query was based on the idea of no social distancing. In that scenario, that 10% increase would be closer to 40% or a complete return to normal interaction levels. That is why I extrapolate out to millions. I was asking a hypothetical based on woodys original post. I was gauging what he was comfortable with so I used an extreme. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

 

I think Woody would say — maybe even did say — he hasn't been on the front lines. IMHO that is clearly contributing to his take on this pandemic.

That model was based on doing nothing — the Woody plan. We don't hear about it anymore because we took another approach and it has generally worked. So the plan is a victim of its own success.

People think of Covid 19 as either a turdburger or death. There are many people in the middle. Many people had to go to the hospital to get better. Where would all of those people have gone if the hospitals weren't accepting any more patients?

The original model was based on nothing.  But it has been revised in its assumptions fairly consistently.  The model was still assuming that there would be over 1MM deaths even after social distancing had been put in place in many areas.

[darksabre]

37 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Why do you think Woody is wrong that the numbers are going to be the same?  On what basis is this "patently false?"

And in response to Liger's "several million", Woody said that the numbers are going to be the same either way -- not that re-opening would increase the numbers by several million, or that he was fine with a differential of that magnitude.

As for "ham-fisted" -- you've now insulted 2 posters.  Why?  Because they disagree with you on something?

How many people do you think would have died from non-COVID issues if we had allowed COVID to overtake the hospitals at a "do nothing" rate? The death toll isn't just about COVID, it's about the entire system. COVID had the power to kill people who never had it. Consider that, please.

With respect to insults, please understand that I like Woody. I consider him a friend. Perhaps I should have taken my response to PMs, so I will grant that I have erred in that way. 

With respect to you though, I don't like you. And I wish you would remove yourself from any conversations I have on this forum with any other poster. If you can't do that, then I will remove myself from this forum.

[darksabre]

24 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Are you sure that Woody is saying that?  It seems that he's saying the hospitals haven't been overwhelmed to the point they were in Italy (you know, the place CBS got footage of overwhelmed ERs and then passed it off as being in NYC & then one other US city) (even in NYC there weren't people dying because they couldn't get a ventilator & NYC was our ground zero once again) and hospital utilization is decreasing at present; which means the "flattening of the curve" happened and our healthcare system can handle the current caseload.  

With that being the case, we really are at the point where things can be opening back up.  We have a lot more material & understanding now that we didn't have 2 months ago.  If things appear to be trending poorly upon opening, they can always be relocked down.

Right now, there is no vaccine & though it seems there are likely effective treatments, how effective they are remains highly anecdotal.  So there appear to be 2 ways to protect those at high risk - either stay locked down until a vaccine is available (which may or not be effective & may literally take years to obtain) or develop herd immunity so that carriers of active virus remain rare enough that they won't cause a mass spread reaching those that are at high risk after the herd immunity has been obtained.  There's only 1 way to get herd immunity without a vaccine - those at low risk need to come in contact with it and develop their own immunity to it.

We need to be cautious for those at high risk, and it is right for each of us to be cognizant that there may be high risk individuals we come in contact with; but we can't generally stay closed down forever.  At some point supplies for essentials such as food will break down & also at some point stress related illnesses will be killing more than this disease will.  We aren't looking at a 1 variable equation.

My 2 cents.

 

That actions needed to be taken in March doesn't mean those same actions need to be taken in May.  Some likely still do; but not all.  Not sure why this is getting made out to be a continue to SIP or go back immediately to exactly the way things were on February 29 binary decision.

I think woody's language speaks for itself. He clearly isn't looking much beyond the way in which he is personally experiencing this thing.

I don't think we're too far away from reopening things. But the idea that we didn't need to do this in the first place seems outrageous, and criticizing people for wanting to do the right thing while it's still going on is also outrageous. We avoided crippling hospitals in NY because we acted. We're about to watch the rest of the country suffer from not acting the way NY did. Look at Georgia for example, they're seeing a crisis right now because of their rush to re-open things.

This lockdown stuff is going to be over soon. It's very likely it wouldn't have even needed to go this far if the Federal government had acted responsibly. But I'm struggling to understand the viewpoint that the response went too far given the circumstances.

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I think woody's language speaks for itself. He clearly isn't looking much beyond the way in which he is personally experiencing this thing.

I don't think we're too far away from reopening things. But the idea that we didn't need to do this in the first place seems outrageous, and criticizing people for wanting to do the right thing while it's still going on is also outrageous. We avoided crippling hospitals in NY because we acted. We're about to watch the rest of the country suffer from not acting the way NY did. Look at Georgia for example, they're seeing a crisis right now because of their rush to re-open things.

This lockdown stuff is going to be over soon. It's very likely it wouldn't have even needed to go this far if the Federal government had acted responsibly. But I'm struggling to understand the viewpoint that the response went too far given the circumstances.

Not according to the Georgia Department of Public Health.

GDPH

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

3 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

This is the funniest thing I've read on here, y'all people have lost your damn minds. Seek help? That's rich

Medicine is about collecting money and prolonging lives far past a time they should be. Ever visit a nursing home?! 

Instead of quality of life we are focusing on quantity. It's not really that hard to see. Right now quality is in the basement. 

Also, I never said I would be "satisfyed" dying tomorrow, I simply said that I could live with it as it's out of my hands, don't change up my words. 

 

 

Although I don't think you need to seek help, I do however think you need to see where others may be coming from. I am glad you enjoy life and live it to your fullest without fear (and I do love the photos you  post).

I have worked in nursing homes and can tell you that alot of those patients are still "happy" to be alive. Depending on the skill level of the nursing home some of them have the freedom to live a decent life as opposed to other options. Outside of that, it also gives family a way of preparing for the inevitable and be at peace with knowing they had their opportunity say their good-byes ( something that is being taken away by this COVID). But you need to remember that not every elderly person is in a nursing home and neither are all the people that are at a greater risk of catching this thing. My dad is going to be 91 yrs old this year and still lives in his own home and still drives, goes to church, visits my mom's grave, socializes with friends and neighbors, some occasional travel, even had his own home-based business until a couple years ago to keep occupied. When my mom passed a couple years ago, I flew out just in time to say good-bye to her (although she wasn't coherent) and she passed about 36 hours later. Even that little time spent meant a great deal to me seeing how we lived in different parts of the country for most of 40yrs. I could sense a comfort feeling in her as well, since I was her "baby". I stayed with my dad for 3 months to help him get things in order. What amazed me was the out-pouring of love from everyone who were touch by their (mom/ dad) lives. People stopping by every day with homemade meals or inviting my dad and I over for dinner. Each one telling me how their lives were impacted by my parents meant so much more than you could imagine.

 Most of the lives my parents touch came after they were  retired, when they had the time to do things that mattered to so many. For many years my dad worked a manufacturing job full time, a security job part time, and was in military reserves (medical battalion) while my mom also worked from the time us kids were in school. They worked very hard for what they have and to provide for us both at the time and possibly in the future. Sure, they had their medical issues much like many other people, dad had triple by-pass at age 69, vision problems, and for about 2yrs has had a cancerous mass on his kidney. Mom was a diabetic amputee with other conditions like COPD and vision issues but lived to be 85.

But all this and yet i still feel for others that are not older. there are people dying from this that are just starting what could be a long productive and touching life. What if my parents were younger .....would I want someone as narrow- minded as yourself deciding their fate? Or should they be able to decide their own fate and leave it up to their faith in a higher power than any of us? And, what happens if a  a cure or vaccine comes along in a few months or a  year...should you kill 60,000 people out of ignorance that might be fine if that happens? 

I understand the argument for "herd immunity" but I don't think people realize the real costs of it. What about a medical student who might save many lives in the future or a biologist who might be on the verge of a cure if they are affected by this? What if it's your family member that you need to make the choice if they live or die?  And, either way that we go with this could be devastating or not. But if it just means that we take some every day precautions (some of which should be practices in everyday life which are other wise be ignored...like frequent hand washing) is that so hard to do to possibly save meaningful lives? Is it that inconvenient to wear a mask and sanitize hands and other little precautions that we can take to maybe get through this? If it's just inconvenience, is that enough to make such a decision? I hear that many of the health care workers are understandably getting depression and are tiring of this whole thing watching people suffering and dying from this, and yet by going back to "normal" may increase that burden on them along with the general population. Many people being tossed into mass graves that might not be a necessity as some claim. I don't hear the people in nursing homes going out and protesting for a return to normal. And what would be the cost if everyone in a nursing home were to die( or you could say, killed for the herd). Loss of income for the owners, loss of jobs in many areas of the job sector due to no need in the near future for nursing homes or it looks like you might be ok with shutting them down permanently.

Sorry in advance about the narrow-minded thing and in some ways I fear that I may be too.