Marty Biron criticizing Skinner this AM

[Doohickie]

27 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

??? = goalkeepers

Okay.  It just didn't click.

 

55 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

No way, at this point, Olofsson doesn’t play with Jack, no one has more chemistry with him. Maybe, I could see Jeff and Sam play together. 

The opportunity was when Skins returned but Ollie was still out.  Water under the bridge at this point.  But it's still hard for me to get down on Skins for not producing like he did last year.  He has a very chaotic playing style.  I think Jack and Sam are good enough players to be able to adjust to and take advantage of that chaos.  A line with a lesser center (or someone who isn't really an NHL center) can't keep up.  If you watch Skins when he's on, he's pushing forward hard.  If his linemates are also pushing, he has more options than just try to drive the into a crowd of three defenders.  He does best with linemates that can push the play but also have the speed to get back on defense when Skinner's high risk/high reward drives fail.

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

They don't have 5v5 chemistry,

Good point.  Putting Skins with Jack 5v5 and putting Ollie on the first PP with Jack would probably be more productive.

[Doohickie]

35 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

But isn’t Jack doing WAY better without Skinner? 

But is that *because* Jack is without Skinner, or has he taken his game to another level this year?

[bob_sauve28]

38 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But is that *because* Jack is without Skinner, or has he taken his game to another level this year?

Probably the later. But is Skinner worse this year because he is not with Jack, or because he cashed in on his contract year? I’d also say the later. 

[Doohickie]

29 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Probably the later. But is Skinner worse this year because he is not with Jack, or because he cashed in on his contract year? I’d also say the later. 

I think the idea that a player "tries harder" during a contract year and "eases up" thereafter is a myth.  I say that with no informational backup though, but why would a player purposely let his game slip?

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Okay.  It just didn't click.

It took me a few guesses too.

[MattPie]

3 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think the idea that a player "tries harder" during a contract year and "eases up" thereafter is a myth.  I say that with no informational backup though, but why would a player purposely let his game slip?

I think (un?)conciously it's not hard to believe that a player works a little harder or some how gets a little sharper. It's also not hard to believe that their game slips the next year from burnout, relaxing, or extra stress of meeting a new standard.

[bob_sauve28]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think the idea that a player "tries harder" during a contract year and "eases up" thereafter is a myth.  I say that with no informational backup though, but why would a player purposely let his game slip?

I don't think that they "ease up." I think that deep in the human psyche the motivation can be intense if you are chasing a sacred goal and the let down, not intentional in Skinner's case, can be steep after you reach that goal. $70,000,000 is a lot of motivation. Does it outweigh the desire to be the greatest and win the cup? In some yes and in some no. 

Jack Eichel seems driven by a desire for greatness. But maybe he meets a beautiful women, falls deeply in love and only cares about her and their kids, his hockey suffers for it. That's just human, too. 

Playing at a top level means thinking about the game a lot, and working on perfection. Life changes things so maybe a player just doesn't focus as much anymore on the little things. Skinner, I would argue, lost some motivation after reaching his dream goal. 

[Doohickie]

I won't take the time, but it would be interesting to see if there is correlation between contract year and performance.  The counterpoint would be pretty much every UFA on the Sabres roster this season, especially Bogo.  ?

[Kristian]

2 hours ago, 3putt said:

Patrick Kane. Conor McDavid, Leon Draisatl, Nate MacKinnon, Sydney Crosby Jack Eichel.  I'll wait

You’re right, nobody ever sets those guys up.

You’re listing players that are not pure finishers, but great players without a doubt.

This from last March, 2019 : McDavid has been on the ice for 33 of Draisaitl's 41 goals and has assisted on 23 of them. Draisaitl has assisted on 17 of McDavid's 33 goals this season.

My point still stands - Finishers need setup guys, even McDavid and Crosby can’t go coast to coast at will.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Kristian

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, jad1 said:

This criticism is kind of insane.  We all knew what type of player Skinner was before Botterill re-signed him.  He's not a grinder; he doesn't drive a line; he's not captain material. He's not Ovechkin or Malkin.

He's a sniper. He needs a setup man.  We all knew this.  He was signed because he has the right skillset to maximize the team's $10 million investment in Jack.  He was signed to play with Eichel.

So what does Krueger do with the guy who was signed to play with Eichel? He doesn't play himwith Eichel.  What does Botterill do to find a center to play with his expensive sniper? Nothing.

Punishing Skinner for not doing the things we all know he can't do by putting him on a line with AHL grinders doesn't make any sense. 

Olofsson has complicated the issue by playing so well on the top line, so that makes the investment in Skinner even more sketchy.  But does anyone really believe that Botterill would have done anything to fix the offense with that cap space if he didn't re-sign Skinner?

And finally, Marty's suggestion to play Skinner with Eichel the last 10 games is just crazy.  First, Krueger had the opportunity to do this when Olofsson was injured.  Second, what if teaming Eichel with Skinner actually works? How stupid does the Sabres management team look, waiting 72 games to try something that worked so well last season?

The criticism directed at Skinner should really be focused on Sabres management and its total lack of a roadmap to build the team.  

Agree that Skinner is at his best with a set up man and that he is, in fact, a natural goal scorer.  It might be pedantic to a degree, but don't agree that he's a "sniper."  His goals (and going off distant memory here, it's been so long since we've seen one) either come from the slot right between the dots or from rebounds / scrambles down low.

Olofsson is a sniper.  Eichel is a sniper.  Don't believe any one else on this team is.

Skinner understands where to be to make goals happen and can shoot well enough that when he's there, they go in.  But, he isn't going to get many of those wide of the high slot goals that snipers can bury.  My 2 cents.

[Kristian]

15 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Agree that Skinner is at his best with a set up man and that he is, in fact, a natural goal scorer.  It might be pedantic to a degree, but don't agree that he's a "sniper."  His goals (and going off distant memory here, it's been so long since we've seen one) either come from the slot right between the dots or from rebounds / scrambles down low.

Olofsson is a sniper.  Eichel is a sniper.  Don't believe any one else on this team is.

Skinner understands where to be to make goals happen and can shoot well enough that when he's there, they go in.  But, he isn't going to get many of those wide of the high slot goals that snipers can bury.  My 2 cents.

I’d say Eichel is a playmaker with an excellent shot?

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Kristian said:

I’d say Eichel is a playmaker with an excellent shot?

Could accept that.

And Eichel isn't quite the sniper that Ovechkin (who is THE sniper) or Matthews are; but IMHO he IS a sniper in addition to a playmaker.  Semantics.

[Brawndo]

Skinner has been creating goals as of late. Against Columbus on EROD’s Goal he not only got an assist, but on the 2 on 1, he rushed the net drawing the defenseman over to him giving Evan an open shooting lane. Also Montour’s First Goal was created by Skinner’s Work at the Side and the net and lifting the defenseman’s stick to allow Montour an unopposed shot. 

[dudacek]

52 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Skinner has been creating goals as of late. Against Columbus on EROD’s Goal he not only got an assist, but on the 2 on 1, he rushed the net drawing the defenseman over to him giving Evan an open shooting lane. Also Montour’s First Goal was created by Skinner’s Work at the Side and the net and lifting the defenseman’s stick to allow Montour an unopposed shot. 

Absolutely agree with this. He's shown signs of coming around

Hopefully the past 30 games have just been a combination of one of his typical slumps coupled with the effects of his injury.

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Skinner understands where to be to make goals happen and can shoot well enough that when he's there, they go in.  But, he isn't going to get many of those wide of the high slot goals that snipers can bury.  My 2 cents.

Skinner scores goals in much the same way Risto does when he's on the power play:   Creating net-front chaos and cashing it in.

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Skinner has been creating goals as of late. Against Columbus on EROD’s Goal he not only got an assist, but on the 2 on 1, he rushed the net drawing the defenseman over to him giving Evan an open shooting lane. Also Montour’s First Goal was created by Skinner’s Work at the Side and the net and lifting the defenseman’s stick to allow Montour an unopposed shot. 

The problem with Skinner's assists is that a lot of the time it looks like the puck goes to the eventual goal scorer in spite of Skinner's abilities rather than because of him.  His "form" as a hockey player doesn't look like the norm but can be very effective.  One thing he does well is move the puck (shoot or pass) very quickly, but he does so at the expense of accuracy a lot of the time.  So it looks like he's spraying the puck.  But when he does move it quickly and it goes to a teammate, it can result in a good open shot.

28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Absolutely agree with this. He's shown signs of coming around

Hopefully the past 30 games have just been a combination of one of his typical slumps coupled with the effects of his injury.

Honestly I've felt this all along.  His first couple games back he was pretty much invisible but he's been getting more and more back to his old self.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Skinner scores goals in much the same way Risto does when he's on the power play:   Creating net-front chaos and cashing it in.

1/2 - 2/3's are scored that way seemingly.  But he also scores a fair amount beating the goalie cleanly from the slot.

[Curt]

4 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

But isn’t Jack doing WAY better without Skinner? 

Jack is scoring 2.85 ES points/60 this season.

Last season he was at 2.67 ES points/60.

So Jack is producing 0.19 ES points/60 more.  It’s not a lot at all.

 

[woods-racer]

9 minutes ago, Curt said:

Jack is scoring 2.85 ES points/60 this season.

Last season he was at 2.67 ES points/60.

So Jack is producing 0.19 ES points/60 more.  It’s not a lot at all.

 

Quick math says that's an 8% increase.

I'll take an 8% pay increase over last year and think it very healthy.

When your at 2.67 an 8% increase is only for special players. So relatively speaking that is quite the jump.

[Curt]

55 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

Quick math says that's an 8% increase.

I'll take an 8% pay increase over last year and think it very healthy.

When your at 2.67 an 8% increase is only for special players. So relatively speaking that is quite the jump.

7%

Its better, but not WAY better.

[tom webster]

9 hours ago, CallawaySabres said:

Contract year, enough said. Skinner has not been adding anything to this team and if he is not scoring, he is totally invisible. He completely deserves to be blasted on the air

Except that it wasn’t. He scored 37 two years prior and has been a top five 5 on 5 scorer in the league for awhile. Calling it a contract year is just being lazy and ignoring the facts.

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Jack is scoring 2.85 ES points/60 this season.

Last season he was at 2.67 ES points/60.

So Jack is producing 0.19 ES points/60 more.  It’s not a lot at all.

 

.19 is basically 1/5 of a point a game, or an extra 1 point every five game, or over the course of a season 16 points just at even strength. That's not a lot? 

[PerreaultForever]

Marty is completely right. It's about time the commentators/announcers started saying the truth and stopped sugar coating reality. Raise the bar/standard of acceptable performance.

JBot signed Skinner to too much - fail - fire him for it.

Skinner is playing like sh*t and has to be called out. You don't compare him to Conor Sheary or any other mediocre player. As a top earner he has to be held to account at that level. 

I had a feeling this contract was going to help sink us, I just didn't expect the drop off to be this much this fast. I'm not sure there is any way to escape it and I'm afraid it'll get even worse when we overpay Sam. 

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

.19 is basically 1/5 of a point a game, or an extra 1 point every five game, or over the course of a season 16 points just at even strength. That's not a lot? 

Except that it’s not per game.  It’s per 60 mins of ES play.  So it’s like 0.05 points per game, or 4-5 points over the course of a full 82 game season.

[bob_sauve28]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

Except that it’s not per game.  It’s per 60 mins of ES play.  So it’s like 0.05 points per game, or 4-5 points over the course of a full 82 game season.

By my quick math, Jack has averaged 1.3 ppg this year, and only 1.06 ppg last year. That's significant.