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Montreal Trades Marco Scandella to STL for 2nd and Conditional 4th.


Brawndo

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3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Marco Scandella was not better in Montreal than he was here this year.

Botterill sold low in a buyer's market in a desperate bid to acquire a serviceable forward, who then failed to meet HIS expectations.

Bergevin acquired an under-priced asset because he could afford it, and bet he could sell it for more when the seller's market improved. Plus he got a chance for the Habs and Scandella to get to know one another and he will probably re-sign him this summer.

FTFY.

Pretty sure only Botterill, Frolik, & Mike's mother expected any more from him than we've seen to date.

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26 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Marco Scandella was not better in Montreal than he was here this year.

Botterill sold low in a buyer's market in a desperate bid to acquire a serviceable forward, who then failed to meet expectations.

Bergevin acquired an under-priced asset because he could afford it, and bet he could sell it for more when the seller's market improved. Plus he got a chance for the Habs and Scandella to get to know one another and he will probably re-sign him this summer.

If Frolik didn’t exceed your expectations I am concerned about your assessment of players. Our PK has been better and we aren’t fielding Wilson and Dea every game still

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1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

What?

Do you think JB has done a good job overall as GM of the Sabres? 

Would you rather have what MTL got for Scandy or what the Sabres got for him?

Please provide examples of premium prices that have been traded for cap space at the deadline.

Also, I didn't change the thread title.

What?

Yes

Team needed bodies and PK help. Frolik was both. 
 

Look at anything Toronto has been doing. That’s cap penalty 

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4 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

If Frolik didn’t exceed your expectations I am concerned about your assessment of players. Our PK has been better and we aren’t fielding Wilson and Dea every game still

I was talking about Botterill’s expectations, not mine.

If his expectations were only “can reasonably Replace Sobotka” then he should have never sacrificed Scandella for him.

I would take what I’ve seen from Frolik over Wilson this year, but not by a significant margin.

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3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If his expectations were only “can reasonably Replace Sobotka” then he should have never sacrificed Scandella for him.

Yeah. But yuck. A player without a 4.3 cap hit and a NMC could have been found to "Reasonably Replace Sobotka" (band name!) and we could have kept Scandella for future trade.

Or if you need to move Scandy, then make it a real trade and add an asset and go get a player who can kill penalties and add more than ... <look up Sobotka + Frolik stats>  2 goals and 3 assists in 31 combined games.

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The biggest concern this is not an anomaly when it comes to asset evaluation by Botterill.
 

Taylor Fedun who has been a serviceable bottom pairing defenseman for the Stars for a 7th Round Pick 

Trading the 156th Pick in 2018 to Toronto for the 177th Pick in 2019

Trading a 3rd to NYR for Vesey, when analytics showed he was not a good asset. 

Not making a decision on Bogosian much sooner. 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The biggest concern this is not an anomaly when it comes to asset evaluation by Botterill.
 

Taylor Fedun who has been a serviceable bottom pairing defenseman for the Stars for a 7th Round Pick 

Trading the 156th Pick in 2018 to Toronto for the 177th Pick in 2019

Trading a 3rd to NYR for Vesey, when analytics showed he was not a good asset. 

Not making a decision on Bogosian much sooner. 

 

 

The kicker for that trade with Toronto - we had just finished last and traded it for a pick the next draft that only could have been as good if Toronto would be in last place the following season, when traditionally now picks have more value than next year picks - not ten minutes later Detroit or someone pulls off a similar trade, their pick in the sixth round this year for another team's FIFTH the next.

overall meaningless, but a sign of our tendency to kill ourselves a million little ways

Edited by Randall Flagg
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8 hours ago, dudacek said:

@GASabresIUFAN, @Curt @LTS and everyone else who was arguing with me about squandering our blueline assets.

@Brawndo and Marc Bergevin have explained it a helluvalot better than I did.

 

Here's the thing. I'm giving the credit.  But there are things to consider here.

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Montreal retained 50% of his salary. 

Did this happen?  I didn't see it, but that's one thing.

7 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

My biggest worry. I need to see a rock solid, significant trade from Jason this offseason or I won't believe he is capable of making moves we need going forward.

It's timing of when you make moves.  This is the pain of hindsight.

6 hours ago, woods-racer said:

STL way over paid.

 

 

 

Yes.  They needed to fill Bouwmeester's spot.  This is where the timing of things can bite you in the ass or pay dividends.  As the reigning Cup champs, they can afford to overpay.

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Marco Scandella was not better in Montreal than he was here this year.

Botterill sold low in a buyer's market in a desperate bid to acquire a serviceable forward, who then failed to meet expectations.

Bergevin acquired an under-priced asset because he could afford it, and bet he could sell it for more when the seller's market improved. Plus he got a chance for the Habs and Scandella to get to know one another and he will probably re-sign him this summer.

One could argue that acquiring Skinner was similar.  The Sabres got to know Skinner and he re-signed.  His goal totals this year, notwithstanding.  But, at the time, Scandella was worth some amount.  If Bouwmeester doesn't collapse do you think that Scandella gets moved for this?  

Botterill made the low cost move to try and acquire a forward who had proven relatively serviceable in past years but was falling out of favor in Calgary.  It did not work out.  It happens.

I can be called a Botterill apologist, but I'm not apologizing for Botterill. I'm accepting that the timing of when someone chooses to act has to be judged on that moment.  It's not always obvious what will occur after the action is taken.  Botterill looks like he squandered assets and the media is already jumping on this.  Of course they are, because it sells.  It doesn't mean that's what happened.  Just like choosing when to buy or sell a stock, you make a decision at a point in time.  If three weeks later that company makes an announcement that raises stocks through the roof are you fool for having sold?  No.  You have to act on what you know at the time.

That said.. Bergevin managed to flip Scandella into something more than he paid for.  Good on him.... bad on us.  This time.

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2 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

It’s not the random Bouwmeester injury that bit Botterill. It was deciding to trade Scandella in January when history has shown that guys like him will be more in demand at the deadline, and/or deciding that Frolik was a crucial get that was worth abandoning conventional wisdom for.

Odds were probably slightly against him winning the deal, but he thought the risk wasn’t worth worrying about, or that the player, or the situation justified the risk. It was like making a pinch with Pavel Bure on the ice. It might work, or it might make you look stupid. But most of the time it won’t be the play that decides the game.

Thing is, if you make too many moves like this it will eventually catch up to you.

Managing a hockey team is a lot like playing a hockey game.

You are going to make good plays and you are going to make bad ones, some big and some little, and you are going to get good bounces and bad ones, some big and some little.

It’s your job to make sure that over time the good ones outweigh the bad ones. If they don’t, the little mistakes like Scandella and the big mistakes like O’Reilly add up. And unless you can match or beat them with your good moves and your lucky moves, when time eventually runs out, you lose.

That, not unfortunate timing, is what is happening to our GM.

Botterill was given a couple of incredibly good bounces in Dahlin and Eichel and a decent bounce in Skinner that he deserves some credit for being able to bury. His bad bounces have been nowhere near that level. Even with the bounces in his favour, he’s losing the game because he hasn’t played it well enough.

Edited by dudacek
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My first concern is that this is going to make him even more gun-shy as he approaches the deadline.

My second concern is that his bosses may not even find out about this series of events.  Who is going to tell them?  Is Kim Pegula plugged in to the hockey transaction wire?  I don’t know if the owners have any organizational process for vetting and evaluating these types of resource-allocation decisions.  They generally don’t seem the slightest bit attuned to what’s going on with the organization other than wins and losses and the occasional media embarrassment which they then quickly react to.  They don’t have a Czar feeding them real-time information about operations or the performance of their GM.  So barring some kind of TBN hit piece citing this trade as a sign of organizational ineptitude, I’m not sure there will be any ramifications.

All this is to say - I live in Knicks country and I can honestly say that the Buffalo Sabres are probably the most poorly-run franchise in all of professional sports.

Edited by Cascade Youth
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1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

This board was going crazy because he was waiting too long for a trade. Now he’s an idiot for not waiting longer?  Can’t win with you lot

This is either sarcasm or you don't understand the difference between any old trade and a impactful trade. 

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Here's my take on all of this. 

It's understood that there were no desperate Blues teams when we traded Marco, and we were unable (or refuse) to retain salary. Without knowing Jason's track record, I could accept that the Canadiens (and a GM that has widely been considered a joke by fans for years) just got a second rounder in addition to what we got, oh well. 

The Scandella trade, after all, wasn't a deadline deal, even though his contract expires. It was a deal to try and unclog the defensive position. For months we played with so many defensemen and so few forwards that we were going 11-7 WHILE sitting legitimate NHL defensemen, WHILE defensemen in Rochester were ALSO playing forward at the same time. This is where the problem lies, IMO, not necessarily that we got beat out in value (even though I buy that Jason mis-timed the market and should be embarrassed by this). 

He got stuck trading a guy that was unexpectedly one of our best D, because he didn't like what he could get for more valuable pieces like Risto, and had pushed how far he was willing to take this roster imbalance into an area where it was detrimental to the Sabres' defense at all professional levels. Fine. We finally got our D-to-forward trade. 

But it was for Michael Frolik. I trashed Scandella last year and was as surprised as anyone by his resurgence this year (and Joki hasn't looked the same since the trade). It is unquestionable that even with roster issues, Scandella brought this team far more than Frolik did. There is a time where a given fan base can accept that the player they get is okay defensively, but whose stick repels pucks and who cannot do anything but get crushed and lose pucks if he tries to do anything but wring them around the boards in the offensive zone. But this is the 50th Botterill forward we've brought in that can only play this game, and it is beyond tiresome watching his collection of middle six guys that are so incapable of making basic plays with the puck. Frolik is the quintessential Jason Botterill forward. Any small amount of value he brings is redundant, and he is a continuation of what the Sabres are literally the worst in the entire NHL at, quantitatively - doing things in the offensive zone to create offense. 

Watching MTL have the cap room we don't have with this mediocre team that allows them to get a 2nd rounder in addition to the 4th that we got, for fewer games of Scandella, is the cherry on top of the most bizarre roster construction I've ever seen. Given that the NHL media clowns (who do everything they can in their segments to absolve their WJC buddy Botts of any responsibility for this roster) have been telling us how Jason has been looking for the move we need for 10 months now, and that there may be corroborative evidence from posters who may know people, I am genuinely worried that NHL GMs don't take Jason seriously, view him as a joke that they can fleece such that it's not worth dealing with him if you're not getting YOUR stolen goods, and as such he is completely incapable of doing what he needs to do to get this team right, which almost certainly involves at least one significant trade for the right top six forward. 

How else can you explain that we've been looking to move defensemen since June, have only managed Scandella, have looked foolish in the wake of that, and continue to sit with too many organizational defensemen despite THREE of them changing hands with the teams we're supposed to be trading with in ONE day yesterday? I'm worried Jason buried himself and isn't being given serious trade offers that we can take because of it. No GM WANTS to enter the season with such a large group of D and such bad forward depth, do they? 

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6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Here's my take on all of this. 

It's understood that there were no desperate Blues teams when we traded Marco, and we were unable (or refuse) to retain salary. Without knowing Jason's track record, I could accept that the Canadiens (and a GM that has widely been considered a joke by fans for years) just got a second rounder in addition to what we got, oh well. 

The Scandella trade, after all, wasn't a deadline deal, even though his contract expires. It was a deal to try and unclog the defensive position. For months we played with so many defensemen and so few forwards that we were going 11-7 WHILE sitting legitimate NHL defensemen, WHILE defensemen in Rochester were ALSO playing forward at the same time. This is where the problem lies, IMO, not necessarily that we got beat out in value (even though I buy that Jason mis-timed the market and should be embarrassed by this). 

He got stuck trading a guy that was unexpectedly one of our best D, because he didn't like what he could get for more valuable pieces like Risto, and had pushed how far he was willing to take this roster imbalance into an area where it was detrimental to the Sabres' defense at all professional levels. Fine. We finally got our D-to-forward trade. 

But it was for Michael Frolik. I trashed Scandella last year and was as surprised as anyone by his resurgence this year (and Joki hasn't looked the same since the trade). It is unquestionable that even with roster issues, Scandella brought this team far more than Frolik did. There is a time where a given fan base can accept that the player they get is okay defensively, but whose stick repels pucks and who cannot do anything but get crushed and lose pucks if he tries to do anything but wring them around the boards in the offensive zone. But this is the 50th Botterill forward we've brought in that can only play this game, and it is beyond tiresome watching his collection of middle six guys that are so incapable of making basic plays with the puck. Frolik is the quintessential Jason Botterill forward. Any small amount of value he brings is redundant, and he is a continuation of what the Sabres are literally the worst in the entire NHL at, quantitatively - doing things in the offensive zone to create offense. 

Watching MTL have the cap room we don't have with this mediocre team that allows them to get a 2nd rounder in addition to the 4th that we got, for fewer games of Scandella, is the cherry on top of the most bizarre roster construction I've ever seen. Given that the NHL media clowns (who do everything they can in their segments to absolve their WJC buddy Botts of any responsibility for this roster) have been telling us how Jason has been looking for the move we need for 10 months now, and that there may be corroborative evidence from posters who may know people, I am genuinely worried that NHL GMs don't take Jason seriously, view him as a joke that they can fleece such that it's not worth dealing with him if you're not getting YOUR stolen goods, and as such he is completely incapable of doing what he needs to do to get this team right, which almost certainly involves at least one significant trade for the right top six forward. 

How else can you explain that we've been looking to move defensemen since June, have only managed Scandella, have looked foolish in the wake of that, and continue to sit with too many organizational defensemen despite THREE of them changing hands with the teams we're supposed to be trading with in ONE day yesterday? I'm worried Jason buried himself and isn't being given serious trade offers that we can take because of it. No GM WANTS to enter the season with such a large group of D and such bad forward depth, do they? 

This. I think Botterill needs to be fired because he has repeatedly demonstrated a complete inability to identify what a real forward is with the exception of Skinner (yes I know he is in a scoring slump). 

 

I am getting the impression Botterill is a lame duck GM and it is because other teams won't deal with him without fleecing him. 

Edited by LGR4GM
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6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Here's my take on all of this. 

It's understood that there were no desperate Blues teams when we traded Marco, and we were unable (or refuse) to retain salary. Without knowing Jason's track record, I could accept that the Canadiens (and a GM that has widely been considered a joke by fans for years) just got a second rounder in addition to what we got, oh well. 

The Scandella trade, after all, wasn't a deadline deal, even though his contract expires. It was a deal to try and unclog the defensive position. For months we played with so many defensemen and so few forwards that we were going 11-7 WHILE sitting legitimate NHL defensemen, WHILE defensemen in Rochester were ALSO playing forward at the same time. This is where the problem lies, IMO, not necessarily that we got beat out in value (even though I buy that Jason mis-timed the market and should be embarrassed by this). 

He got stuck trading a guy that was unexpectedly one of our best D, because he didn't like what he could get for more valuable pieces like Risto, and had pushed how far he was willing to take this roster imbalance into an area where it was detrimental to the Sabres' defense at all professional levels. Fine. We finally got our D-to-forward trade. 

But it was for Michael Frolik. I trashed Scandella last year and was as surprised as anyone by his resurgence this year (and Joki hasn't looked the same since the trade). It is unquestionable that even with roster issues, Scandella brought this team far more than Frolik did. There is a time where a given fan base can accept that the player they get is okay defensively, but whose stick repels pucks and who cannot do anything but get crushed and lose pucks if he tries to do anything but wring them around the boards in the offensive zone. But this is the 50th Botterill forward we've brought in that can only play this game, and it is beyond tiresome watching his collection of middle six guys that are so incapable of making basic plays with the puck. Frolik is the quintessential Jason Botterill forward. Any small amount of value he brings is redundant, and he is a continuation of what the Sabres are literally the worst in the entire NHL at, quantitatively - doing things in the offensive zone to create offense. 

Watching MTL have the cap room we don't have with this mediocre team that allows them to get a 2nd rounder in addition to the 4th that we got, for fewer games of Scandella, is the cherry on top of the most bizarre roster construction I've ever seen. Given that the NHL media clowns (who do everything they can in their segments to absolve their WJC buddy Botts of any responsibility for this roster) have been telling us how Jason has been looking for the move we need for 10 months now, and that there may be corroborative evidence from posters who may know people, I am genuinely worried that NHL GMs don't take Jason seriously, view him as a joke that they can fleece such that it's not worth dealing with him if you're not getting YOUR stolen goods, and as such he is completely incapable of doing what he needs to do to get this team right, which almost certainly involves at least one significant trade for the right top six forward. 

How else can you explain that we've been looking to move defensemen since June, have only managed Scandella, have looked foolish in the wake of that, and continue to sit with too many organizational defensemen despite THREE of them changing hands with the teams we're supposed to be trading with in ONE day yesterday? I'm worried Jason buried himself and isn't being given serious trade offers that we can take because of it. No GM WANTS to enter the season with such a large group of D and such bad forward depth, do they? 

This is what happens when JBott thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room.

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3 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

This is what happens when JBott thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room.

I think the Sabres front office is one of the worst. Their refusal to understand and incorporate data into decision making is pathetic. Anyone with half a brain could have looked at Frolic and realized he was nothing more than a warm body and 4.3mil on a cap strapped team was stupid. 

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15 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I can't help but think that if Botterill had waived Bogo sooner he could have gotten more for Scandella at the deadline.

Bogo, Pilut, (and Hunwick) were injured going into the year, so JBot rightly acquired depth.

Miller is a good pickup. It allowed Pilut to go back to AHL. Joker is a great pickup -- scoring depth may have been impacted, but Joker's (steadfastness? implacability?) is the cause of the madness. Joker should be in the AHL this year once Bogo is back healthy. But you can't take Henri out of the lineup; he's been stellar as essentially a rookie.

The results of when folks got healthy have been the issue. We dressed 7 D for weeks and weeks. Someone had to move, and you're right, the logical move was to trade/waive Bogo as soon as he was back. Pilut in the AHL. And keep Scandy as your 6/7; he was playing really well when he was in -- and you can afford to give Dahlin and Joker a day off without punishing them. That's what a #7 is for (+ injuries). Then move Scandella (with higher value - better player, lower cost) at the deadline.

... and now I've gotta go read @LGR4GM's post...

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