Per Source Pegulas Have No Plans to Hire a POHO

[FogBat]

14 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

 

 

This is the problem TP is de facto Pres of Hockey Ops.  

Just like Jerry Jones is both owner and GM of the Dallas Cowboys. Had those great seasons at the start, but has mostly become irrelevant as the years have gone on.

20 hours ago, spndnchz said:

What worse is that the picture was taken on a game night.

Ouch...

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, Taro T said:

 

Soooo frustrating this season is. (Though not as frustrating as the 3 prior were IMHO, probably because the team is an Ullmark injury away from exceeding my expectations for it.)

 

All good stuff, and last sentence, I agree about this season - the most frustrating thing about it is that it's the culmination of the previous two more-frustrating ones. The season itself definitely beats either of the last two in entertainment value 

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Neil Smith - Aisles

Good old Wacky Wang.

Yes -- that was one of them.  Still quite rare though.

26 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Thing is, he hasn't been "incompetent" but he's been mediocre in several phases.  He's got a lot of singles (Johansson, Montour, Miller, bringing in Scandella, the Kane trade, not including Olofsson in any outgoing packages, Lazar), a limited amount of extra base hits (Jokiharju, the Skinner trade, the Eichel lockup), and some huge swing & a miss for strike 3 with men on base in scoring position (Housley, O'Reilly), and another strikeout (Scandella).

And things like bringing in Sheary that actually did improve the F depth ended up getting minimized by moves that immediately followed (the Skinner trade). Heck, the Miller trade was good, but he then followed it up with the Jokiharju trade which, by early October at the latest should have spawned a different trade to upgrade the F's that clearly were lacking.

And there are several other moves that are likely singles but could be homeruns that it's simply too soon to tell about (Cozens, Mittelstadt, Krueger, Pilut, the 2nd (?) round goalie.

Don't like it, but do understand his having faith that the upgrade of Bales from Allen would improve the goaltending enough that burying / buying out Hutton wouldn't be necessary.  And October's results hinted that he was right and everybody here was wrong.  But, boy, did November and December turn that one on its head.

Very good questions.  Another question that we won't get the answer to, is how much was he relying on Mittelstadt and Thompson to be useful this season in any sort of elevated role and how much did he realize that was a roll of the dice?  If he realized if was a dice roll, but intentionally decided to take it because next year and the year after were the planned years to become relevant and he didn't want to squander assets for those years to not have to roll the dice now; the result is the same, but it doesn't indicate he & his charges are as incompetent as having expected them to be significant contributors now would.

Thing is, if he really believed he'd upgraded the 2C role with either Johansson or Mittelstadt or more likely expected that the way Skinner and Johansson played last year that Rodrigues (based on how he played down the stretch in the 2C role) would be at least adequate there, then he failed in his evaluation.

But, do we really think he thought any of Sheary, Vesey, Lazar, Pominville, or Frolik were going to be anything more but competition as bottom 6 wingers?  (In the case of Sheary, he was probably pencilled in as a top 6 winger, but out of necessity, not design.  And he only paid cap space for him (a poor decision in hindsight, but not outrageous when the trade was made).  And, yes, the Frolik trade was a wash at best and likely a squandered asset.

Soooo frustrating this season is. (Though not as frustrating as the 3 prior were IMHO, probably because the team is an Ullmark injury away from exceeding my expectations for it.)

 

Excellent post.  Regarding the bolded, though -- the team is 5-5 since Linus got hurt, so it's not like they were headed for the playoffs and then the bottom fell out.

[Taro T]

28 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Yes -- that was one of them.  Still quite rare though.

Excellent post.  Regarding the bolded, though -- the team is 5-5 since Linus got hurt, so it's not like they were headed for the playoffs and then the bottom fell out.

Going back 1 game further, to include Ullmark's injury game, they've got 6 losses, and those 6 losses include 2 losses to the Otters, 1 to the Dead Things, 1 to the struggling Habs at home, 1 post regulation loss to the struggling Ducks, and a thumping by the playoff bound Avs.  They needed, realistically, to be at least 7-2-2 in that stretch and ideally 9-1-1 in that stretch to have a solid shot at the post season.  (No way were they beating Colorado.  The rest were possible and necessary.)  And my expectation was 88 points; they're pacing for 85-86. With Linus, those expectations likely get exceeded.  (Even with Ullmark, they'd likely slump off a bit the next week or 2, but should finish strong.)

[Eleven]

3 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Why are you ignoring the central assertion? That Pegula is POHO, he just doesn't have the balls to announce it?

Because he--I'm assuming you mean Tim and not Kerry--isn't.  

We can give the position whatever title we want, but the person who reports to the owners and who makes the ultimate roster decisions is the person in charge.  Right now, that title is "general manager" and the person is Jason Botterill.  Putting someone between Botterill and the owners doesn't make Botterill better, it substitutes a different ultimate decision maker.  And I'm fine with that substitution--believe me.  I don't care what the title is.  But recognize that there will be one "hockey person" running the team, no matter what called.  Again, having two bosses equals having no boss.  

Seems to me that the problem is that the decision maker isn't very good, and not that he doesn't have the right title.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Eleven

[Eleven]

To put this another way:

Let's say that several years ago, the Pegulas had plucked Jason Botterill out of Pittsburgh and hired him as president of hockey operations, and then Botterill hired a GM.  We'd still recognize that Botterill was the ultimate decision maker, and, therefore, the problem.

[Second Line Center]

7 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Exactly.  The owner is always the boss.  There is no "taking power away" from the owner.

Unfortunately, it looks like TP has whiffed on his third GM decision. 

My reason for wanting a POHO or senior hockey adviser put in place is that I think JB does some things well but he needs an experienced voice to consider and evaluate his NHL hockey talent decisions -- because for the most part, those have been lousy decisions.

 

 

So a hockey Prez that knows what he's doing.  

Exactly.  It can't be Pegula.  

[erickompositör72]

7 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Exactly.  The owner is always the boss.  There is no "taking power away" from the owner.

Unfortunately, it looks like TP has whiffed on his third GM decision. 

My reason for wanting a POHO or senior hockey adviser put in place is that I think JB does some things well but he needs an experienced voice to consider and evaluate his NHL hockey talent decisions -- because for the most part, those have been lousy decisions.

That should be the job of the head of the scouting dept, no?

[Curt]

7 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Why are you ignoring the central assertion? That Pegula is POHO, he just doesn't have the balls to announce it?

You really think that Pegula is making hockey decisions and/or meeting regularly with Botterill to discuss players?

[dudacek]

43 minutes ago, Curt said:

You really think that Pegula is making hockey decisions and/or meeting regularly with Botterill to discuss players?

I think he talks to Jason most days to stay on top of whatever the issues are and how they are working out.

Whst's wrong with Hutton? Why has Mittelstadt developed so slowly? What are we going to do about Bogosian? Were we in on Zucker?

I think he mostly let's Jason do his job, but tries to make him accountable for it, and occasionally, for whatever reason, he will dictate a course of action he feels strongly about, be it "I don't want to to re-sign Kane, he's a jerk" or "make sure that O'Reilly trade is made before I have to pay him his bonus."

In other words, he behaves like most bosses in most workplaces.

[PASabreFan]

4 hours ago, Curt said:

You really think that Pegula is making hockey decisions and/or meeting regularly with Botterill to discuss players?

In fact, dudacek, it was revealed that Terry talks to Jason every day, up to three times a day. Don't recall if Jason or Kim revealed that. Kim once famously said when they go to the arena, she turns to the business offices and he heads to the GM side. Kim also said Terry watches game film. Sorry, that's nuts. We know he sat next to goaltender coach Mike Bales at a game this year. Yeah, it's mostly smoke, but it adds up to a very strong circumstantial case. Terry's learned one lesson well, anyway. Stop talking freely about what you're doing. Remember that time he got on WGR and admitted that the spending spree of the summer of 2011 was his decision? He doesn't do that anymore.

dudacek, I don't believe most owners of most NHL teams behave like Terry does.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

In fact, dudacek, it was revealed that Terry talks to Jason every day, up to three times a day. Don't recall if Jason or Kim revealed that. Kim once famously said when they go to the arena, she turns to the business offices and he heads to the GM side. Kim also said Terry watches game film. Sorry, that's nuts. We know he sat next to goaltender coach Mike Bales at a game this year. Yeah, it's mostly smoke, but it adds up to a very strong circumstantial case. Terry's learned one lesson well, anyway. Stop talking freely about what you're doing. Remember that time he got on WGR and admitted that the spending spree of the summer of 2011 was his decision? He doesn't do that anymore.

dudacek, I don't believe most owners of most NHL teams behave like Terry does.

This might be true. It’s a spectrum and Terry isn’t unique, but he definitely has stronger element of fantasy football to him than most.

[Eleven]

19 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

So a hockey Prez that knows what he's doing. 

But the Pegulas will hire the president.  So they''ll need a hockey prime minister to supervise the president.

And a hockey king to supervise the prime minister.

And a hockey galactic emperor to supervise the king.

 

In reality, they just need a better GM.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Eleven

[Randall Flagg]

I just bashed Friedman in the other thread, but from a poster's summary of his words on hfboards:
 

Lastly, he [Friedman] says that the biggest wildcard with the team is what the organization looks like next year. Whether Botterill will be back, if Kevin Adams or Kruger are elevated into new roles, etc. Says that the Pegulas are really frustrated and that all options are being discussed.

[nfreeman]

47 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I just bashed Friedman in the other thread, but from a poster's summary of his words on hfboards:
 

Lastly, he [Friedman] says that the biggest wildcard with the team is what the organization looks like next year. Whether Botterill will be back, if Kevin Adams or Kruger are elevated into new roles, etc. Says that the Pegulas are really frustrated and that all options are being discussed.

Interesting.

[Radar]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I just bashed Friedman in the other thread, but from a poster's summary of his words on hfboards:
 

Lastly, he [Friedman] says that the biggest wildcard with the team is what the organization looks like next year. Whether Botterill will be back, if Kevin Adams or Kruger are elevated into new roles, etc. Says that the Pegulas are really frustrated and that all options are being discussed.

I saw him on the Instigators and I didn't hear him say anything about that. Never remember him mentioning owners, coach or GM. Talked only about players as I remember.

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, Radar said:

I saw him on the Instigators and I didn't hear him say anything about that. Never remember him mentioning owners, coach or GM. Talked only about players as I remember.

I believe this summary is from 31 thoughts. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

2 minutes ago, Radar said:

I saw him on the Instigators and I didn't hear him say anything about that. Never remember him mentioning owners, coach or GM. Talked only about players as I remember.

Me too. I wonder though if this may have been something that was in his "31 Thoughts".

[Radar]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I believe this summary is from 31 thoughts. 

Ok.

[PASabreFan]

RaKru as special advisor to the owner? He'll find a new GM and get Terry's sign off? Then be the go-between between the new GM and the owner, leaving the GM to do his job unfettered? And maybe work with Adams, who will be the new team president, to do business-y stuff, the link between the hockey and business side?

I'd take that as a compromise to my idea of a hockey president with Terry back in Scranton without phone service or email.

[Kruppstahl]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

But the Pegulas will hire the president.  So they''ll need a hockey prime minister to supervise the president.

And a hockey king to supervise the prime minister.

And a hockey galactic emperor to supervise the king.

 

In reality, they just need a better GM.

A better GM is important, but I do feel this organization would benefit from another layer of management above GM to observe and act as a de facto "owner" to advise Pegula, because Pegula is incapable of doing that himself.

Pegula is always going to be limited to who he is taking his information from, and how much he trusts that person, b/c he is clueless on his own.  

You don't want the informant also being the GM trying to save his own skin.

I would love to know who Pegula is getting his information from right now.  Is it Botterill?

You can see the conflict of interest. 

 

 

 

 

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

RaKru as special advisor to the owner? He'll find a new GM and get Terry's sign off? Then be the go-between between the new GM and the owner, leaving the GM to do his job unfettered? And maybe work with Adams, who will be the new team president, to do business-y stuff, the link between the hockey and business side?

I'd take that as a compromise to my idea of a hockey president with Terry back in Scranton without phone service or email.

Is this why the Buffalo opportunity intrigued Ralph more than anything else he was being offered?

[Eleven]

4 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

A better GM is important, but I do feel this organization would benefit from another layer of management above GM to observe and act as a de facto "owner" to advise Pegula, because Pegula is incapable of doing that himself.

But who's going to hire that person?  The Pegulas.  And if they're incapable of hiring a good GM, how are they simultaneously capable of hiring a good advisor?

[PASabreFan]

Just now, dudacek said:

Is this why the Buffalo opportunity intrigued Ralph more than anything else he was being offered?

I think so. My BF is smart. Why do you think he put Skinner on the second line? Skinner comes out looking a lot worse than Krueger does, hence Botterill gets the ultimate blame. Why do you think Marty said what he said? Marty's a big deep state RaKruer. Now, the special advisor title isn't enough, but Ralph will take it for now, until the Pegulas step back even more and give him the full reins. We not only face the end of democracy, but the end of timeouts!

[PASabreFan]

2 minutes ago, Eleven said:

But who's going to hire that person?  The Pegulas.  And if they're incapable of hiring a good GM, how are they simultaneously capable of hiring a good advisor?

They already have him. They either lucked into it when Botterill hired him, or they were super smart to tell Botterill to hire him.