Per Source Pegulas Have No Plans to Hire a POHO

[Curt]

8 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I wonder how many of the 31 teams lack a person with the official title of “president of hockey operations”

and is it the same or different (in the eyes of the team) as the title of “president”.

And do all teams have an assistant GM? 
It seems some teams use different titles than others.

President and President of Hockey Operations are definitely two different things (in theory).  One deals directly with hockey decisions, the other does not.

Many teams do not have a Pres of Hockey Ops.

The vast majority of teams have Assistant GMs, often 2-3 of them.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Curt

[Zamboni]

17 minutes ago, Curt said:

President and President of Hockey Operations are definitely two different things (in theory).  One deals directly with hockey decisions, the other does not.

Many teams do not have a Pres of Hockey Ops.

The vast majority of teams have Assistant GMs, often 2-3 of them.

I figured as much. But then I looked at 5 or 6 teams and the titles are all over the place lol. Not as consistent as you may think.

[LTS]

8 hours ago, tom webster said:

Again, experience is overrated. Look what Salic and Yzerman have done. You just have to surround yourself with smart people and have a plan in place.

Well.. Yzerman gets a lot of credit, but he hasn't actually assembled a roster that has won anything has he?  During his tenure in TB he reached Cup finals once if I recall.  He certainly built a good team but they are perhaps the most tenuous for future success.  The proliferation of NMC and NTC on the roster could really hurt them in the future (it also might not).

Overall, I agree, smart people and a plan. There is also luck.. or whatever you perceive drafting a top player in later rounds to be.  Ken Holland certainly gets credit, but did they ever think Datsyuk and Zetterberg would be that good?  Did Yzerman ever think that some of his picks would be that good?  If so.. all the credit.  Of course it's hard to know.. because after the fact, once a player excels, the GM can take credit.  

Did Murray foresee Olofsson or was it a calculated stab in the dark that paid off for once?

[PerreaultForever]

A deep statistical analysis of this concludes that there is absolutely no direct correlation between wealth and intelligence. Feel free to add diagrams.

 

[Kruppstahl]

10 hours ago, Brawndo said:

 

This confirms something Frank Seravilli from TSN mentioned a few weeks ago 

Greg Wyshynski from ESPN.com said the same thing in his piece on the Sabres from a week or 2 ago...

Well, he said this was looked into LAST offseason and considered, but then decided against. 

So this kind of confirms the organization has moved on from the idea.

 

[Kruppstahl]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

President and President of Hockey Operations are definitely two different things (in theory).  One deals directly with hockey decisions, the other does not.

Many teams do not have a Pres of Hockey Ops.

The vast majority of teams have Assistant GMs, often 2-3 of them.

This team would be well served by a Pres. of Hockey Ops. because Terry Pegula is clueless, and so he needs a knowledgable hockey person inside his organization telling him what is going on and evaluating what is happening.

Of course, you could argue the PHO simply becomes a de facto GM at that point, and therefore should have simply hired as GM.

The Sabres organization will always be limited by who is whispering what into Pegula's ear.  For that reason, I think we would benefit more than most organizations from more chefs in the kitchen.

 

[Radar]

8 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

 

 

This is the problem TP is de facto Pres of Hockey Ops.  

Problem or not this is true. Most owners are.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Radar said:

Problem or not this is true. Most owners are.

Exactly.  The owner is always the boss.  There is no "taking power away" from the owner.

Unfortunately, it looks like TP has whiffed on his third GM decision. 

My reason for wanting a POHO or senior hockey adviser put in place is that I think JB does some things well but he needs an experienced voice to consider and evaluate his NHL hockey talent decisions -- because for the most part, those have been lousy decisions.

[erickompositör72]

6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Exactly.  The owner is always the boss.  There is no "taking power away" from the owner.

Unfortunately, it looks like TP has whiffed on his third GM decision. 

My reason for wanting a POHO or senior hockey adviser put in place is that I think JB does some things well but he needs an experienced voice to consider and evaluate his NHL hockey talent decisions -- because for the most part, those have been lousy decisions.

Additionally, he needs somebody to tell the owner that some of ownership's decisions/input are going to be outright ignored/dismissed, because JBot doesn't have the balls to do so himself (and this is the perception league-wide re:JBot) 

[nfreeman]

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

Additionally, he needs somebody to tell the owner that some of ownership's decisions/input are going to be outright ignored/dismissed, because JBot doesn't have the balls to do so himself (and this is the perception league-wide re:JBot) 

No one is going to do this, on any team. 

[erickompositör72]

3 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

No one is going to do this, on any team. 

I'm just reiterating what I've heard from someone directly involved in the operations of another NHL franchise, which seems at odds with your assertion 

EDIT:

To expound further: it's entirely possible that JBot is very assertive with TPegs, and maybe even stood up to him from time to time. Let's use ROR as an example. Maybe JBots was on the verge of quitting over it, and insisted on a different course of action, but in the end, coalesced for the purpose of saving his job.

Or, he just did what Terry asked, and didn't put up much of a fight. That is the perception around the league.

Edited February 19, 2020 by erickompositör72

[nucci]

you don't need more upper management. You just need a competent GM

[nfreeman]

23 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

I'm just reiterating what I've heard from someone directly involved in the operations of another NHL franchise, which seems at odds with your assertion 

EDIT:

To expound further: it's entirely possible that JBot is very assertive with TPegs, and maybe even stood up to him from time to time. Let's use ROR as an example. Maybe JBots was on the verge of quitting over it, and insisted on a different course of action, but in the end, coalesced for the purpose of saving his job.

Or, he just did what Terry asked, and didn't put up much of a fight. That is the perception around the league.

When was the last time a GM quit due to owner interference?  I don't think I can come up with a single example. 

I'm sure GMs push back on owners all the time, and try to convince the owners that they are wrong in pushing for move XYZ, but that is quite different from ignoring/dismissing the owner's wishes. 

[erickompositör72]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

When was the last time a GM quit due to owner interference?  I don't think I can come up with a single example. 

I'm sure GMs push back on owners all the time, and try to convince the owners that they are wrong in pushing for move XYZ, but that is quite different from ignoring/dismissing the owner's wishes. 

PLF? (Speculation, and obviously not exactly a GM)

Ignoring/dismissing may have been an overstatement for the purpose of making a point. I'm sorry if it clouded my argument. The crux of the point I was making is that JBot is not perceived as someone who pushes with appropriate fervor against ownership.

[freester]

42 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Exactly.  The owner is always the boss.  There is no "taking power away" from the owner.

Unfortunately, it looks like TP has whiffed on his third GM decision. 

My reason for wanting a POHO or senior hockey adviser put in place is that I think JB does some things well but he needs an experienced voice to consider and evaluate his NHL hockey talent decisions -- because for the most part, those have been lousy decisions.

Botteril does nothing well except coachspeak at press conferences.  Otherwise he is utterly incompetent at every phase of his job.  He has made one good move (Joker) every other move and contract has been atrocious including Skinner, which is now among the worst contracts in the league.  Skinner currently holds negative value.

[erickompositör72]

5 minutes ago, freester said:

Botteril does nothing well except coachspeak at press conferences.  Otherwise he is utterly incompetent at every phase of his job.  He has made one good move (Joker) every other move and contract has been atrocious including Skinner, which is now among the worst contracts in the league.  Skinner currently holds negative value.

To early to say for sure

[freester]

8 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

To early to say for sure

Do you think Seattle would take him in the expansion draft? I highly doubt it.   Unfortunately I think we have to protect him since he has a NMC.

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Exactly.  The owner is always the boss.  There is no "taking power away" from the owner.

Unfortunately, it looks like TP has whiffed on his third GM decision. 

My reason for wanting a POHO or senior hockey adviser put in place is that I think JB does some things well but he needs an experienced voice to consider and evaluate his NHL hockey talent decisions -- because for the most part, those have been lousy decisions.

I don't know why he hasn't been able to re-evaluate his or his scouts' pro-scouting abilities, given that we're three years in and still acquiring the same kinds of bad players that contribute to our offensive woes in the same way. 

Will he suddenly be able to use all of this cap space this summer to acquire players that play a kind of game we haven't seen here in forever, but is all over the NHL today, rather than more plodders that are only capable of passing to point men and for reasons that won't be replicated in Buffalo have even strength goal numbers in the mid-teens? I'm not particularly confident 

[PASabreFan]

11 hours ago, Eleven said:

Bull-stuff.  Pizza tycoons have won Cups and so have folks that just inherited teams.  None of them know a thing about hockey.  They need one--and I do mean one--person who knows hockey at the top.  It doesn't matter whether they call that person a GM or a president of hockey operations.  To have two means to have none.

Why are you ignoring the central assertion? That Pegula is POHO, he just doesn't have the balls to announce it?

3 hours ago, Radar said:

Problem or not this is true. Most owners are.

I throw down my blue and gold challenge flag. Prove it! I'm not saying you're wrong. But I'd be shocked if 16 owners are as involved as Terry is, the way Terry is. The problem is doing the research on such a thing. Ain't nobody got time for that! The situation in Buffalo is unique. How many fans of a team become owner?

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Exactly.  The owner is always the boss.  There is no "taking power away" from the owner.

Unfortunately, it looks like TP has whiffed on his third GM decision. 

My reason for wanting a POHO or senior hockey adviser put in place is that I think JB does some things well but he needs an experienced voice to consider and evaluate his NHL hockey talent decisions -- because for the most part, those have been lousy decisions.

I want a stronger POHO than that. A czar. I don't want my hockey president "advising." I want him or her setting the agenda and hiring people to enact it. This idea of an advisor president between Botterill and Pegula is nuts.

[Randall Flagg]

What is Shanahan's role/job description in Toronto?

[nfreeman]

7 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Why are you ignoring the central assertion? That Pegula is POHO, he just doesn't have the balls to announce it?

I throw down my blue and gold challenge flag. Prove it! I'm not saying you're wrong. But I'd be shocked if 16 owners are as involved as Terry is, the way Terry is. The problem is doing the research on such a thing. Ain't nobody got time for that! The situation in Buffalo is unique. How many fans of a team become owner?

I want a stronger POHO than that. A czar. I don't want my hockey president "advising." I want him or her setting the agenda and hiring people to enact it. This idea of an advisor president between Botterill and Pegula is nuts.

As to the bolded -- how involved do you think he is?  Do you think he is pushing JB to trade Scandy for Frolik, or to draft Cozens? 

My impression is that he isn't involved at all, although I think he told JB that if ROR was to be traded, it needed to be before the $7.5MM came due -- but that was close to 2 years ago.

As for the role of a hockey czar -- I'm open to someone being empowered to evaluate and determine the fate of JB, and to sign off on all major GM decisions.

[PASabreFan]

7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

As to the bolded -- how involved do you think he is?  Do you think he is pushing JB to trade Scandy for Frolik, or to draft Cozens? 

My impression is that he isn't involved at all, although I think he told JB that if ROR was to be traded, it needed to be before the $7.5MM came due -- but that was close to 2 years ago.

As for the role of a hockey czar -- I'm open to someone being empowered to evaluate and determine the fate of JB, and to sign off on all major GM decisions.

I would refer you to SabreSpace vs. Pegula, The Honorable Judge Smell presiding.

[...]

8 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

The situation in Buffalo is unique. How many fans of a team become owner?

This is it, mostly, and my only reservation is whether or not our situation is unique enough to be classified as unique.

There are as many types of business owners as there are types of hockey player.  Some have great instincts for the business they are in, some know instinctually to get out of the way of the people they hire. Some think they know what they are doing, really don't, but somehow manage to survive despite the chaos they create as owners. The variations go on and on.

In Pegula's case I think we're dealing with these factors:

• Pegula is a fan who owns the team
• Pegula, because of his success in the O&G industry, thinks he can be a success in other industries
• Pegula has given control of the team to his wife, who was a Media and Entertainment dilettante (and is now a M&E incompetent)
• The Pegulas can not recognize that they need to get our of their own way with the Sabres

 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

When was the last time a GM quit due to owner interference?  I don't think I can come up with a single example. 

I'm sure GMs push back on owners all the time, and try to convince the owners that they are wrong in pushing for move XYZ, but that is quite different from ignoring/dismissing the owner's wishes. 

Neil Smith - Aisles

Good old Wacky Wang.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, freester said:

Botteril does nothing well except coachspeak at press conferences.  Otherwise he is utterly incompetent at every phase of his job.  He has made one good move (Joker) every other move and contract has been atrocious including Skinner, which is now among the worst contracts in the league.  Skinner currently holds negative value.

Thing is, he hasn't been "incompetent" but he's been mediocre in several phases.  He's got a lot of singles (Johansson, Montour, Miller, bringing in Scandella, the Kane trade, not including Olofsson in any outgoing packages, Lazar), a limited amount of extra base hits (Jokiharju, the Skinner trade, the Eichel lockup), and some huge swing & a miss for strike 3 with men on base in scoring position (Housley, O'Reilly), and another strikeout (Scandella).

And things like bringing in Sheary that actually did improve the F depth ended up getting minimized by moves that immediately followed (the Skinner trade). Heck, the Miller trade was good, but he then followed it up with the Jokiharju trade which, by early October at the latest should have spawned a different trade to upgrade the F's that clearly were lacking.

And there are several other moves that are likely singles but could be homeruns that it's simply too soon to tell about (Cozens, Mittelstadt, Krueger, Pilut, the 2nd (?) round goalie.

Don't like it, but do understand his having faith that the upgrade of Bales from Allen would improve the goaltending enough that burying / buying out Hutton wouldn't be necessary.  And October's results hinted that he was right and everybody here was wrong.  But, boy, did November and December turn that one on its head.

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I don't know why he hasn't been able to re-evaluate his or his scouts' pro-scouting abilities, given that we're three years in and still acquiring the same kinds of bad players that contribute to our offensive woes in the same way. 

Will he suddenly be able to use all of this cap space this summer to acquire players that play a kind of game we haven't seen here in forever, but is all over the NHL today, rather than more plodders that are only capable of passing to point men and for reasons that won't be replicated in Buffalo have even strength goal numbers in the mid-teens? I'm not particularly confident 

Very good questions.  Another question that we won't get the answer to, is how much was he relying on Mittelstadt and Thompson to be useful this season in any sort of elevated role and how much did he realize that was a roll of the dice?  If he realized if was a dice roll, but intentionally decided to take it because next year and the year after were the planned years to become relevant and he didn't want to squander assets for those years to not have to roll the dice now; the result is the same, but it doesn't indicate he & his charges are as incompetent as having expected them to be significant contributors now would.

Thing is, if he really believed he'd upgraded the 2C role with either Johansson or Mittelstadt or more likely expected that the way Skinner and Johansson played last year that Rodrigues (based on how he played down the stretch in the 2C role) would be at least adequate there, then he failed in his evaluation.

But, do we really think he thought any of Sheary, Vesey, Lazar, Pominville, or Frolik were going to be anything more but competition as bottom 6 wingers?  (In the case of Sheary, he was probably pencilled in as a top 6 winger, but out of necessity, not design.  And he only paid cap space for him (a poor decision in hindsight, but not outrageous when the trade was made).  And, yes, the Frolik trade was a wash at best and likely a squandered asset.

Soooo frustrating this season is. (Though not as frustrating as the 3 prior were IMHO, probably because the team is an Ullmark injury away from exceeding my expectations for it.)