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#freejame

Sam Reinhart and Brad Marchand— A basic contract comparison

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6 hours ago, #freejame said:

Someone said they wished we could sign him to a contract like Marchand’s. This shows Sam has provided more value than Marchand did at the time of his third contract and will likely be paid at a higher percentage of cap. You’re comparing one player who is currently in his prime to one player who is not. Of course Marchand is better now, he’s directly in his prime. Reinhart is not in his prime yet.

If Eichel is in his prime now, and Sams one year older than Jack, how is Sam not in his prime yet? 🤪😏😉🙈

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17 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Marchand is a much, much better player than Reino.

But I would be fine with giving Reino $7MM per year x 7 years.

I agree with you but lets check Reino's career in 7 years at similar ages (Marchand is 31, Samson 24) and see where they rank. 7 by 7 seems like a good contract extension to me. 

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27 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

If Eichel is in his prime now, and Sams one year older than Jack, how is Sam not in his prime yet? 🤪😏😉🙈

Eichel isn’t in his prime, I’ve already argued that in another thread. 

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40 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Eichel isn’t in his prime, I’ve already argued that in another thread. 

I know.  Agitation.  Kinda like Marchand.

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Point production is similar, but there's more to hockey than just putting up points.

Points being equal, I'll take Marchand everyday of the week.

Most folks here have blinders on when it comes to evaluating players... focusing solely on points, or shot generation, XGF%, etc.  They discredit all the other ingredients that go into making a good hockey player... courage, will to win, toughness, determination, etc.  Unmeasurable characteristics that good teams posses and poor teams lack.

 

Edited by pi2000
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7 hours ago, inkman said:

Sam doesn't lick people's faces or spear them in the nuts, you know, "intangibles".  Ask the receivers of said spear how tangible Brad's value is.  God I hate talking about him. My mouth...er fingers...feel dirty.  

I mean.. if your fingers feel dirty talking about Marchand it has to be really bad... given some of the things you say on here. 😉

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22 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'd do it just for the despairing moans of Sabres fans

Welcome to Team Schadenfreude!

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Comparing Sam with Marchand is mindboggling to me. 

To be honest, I expected this to be an assassination of Reino thread.

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7 hours ago, MODO Hockey said:

I dont like him much, mostly because he cant do ***** without Jack. 

This has been disproven.  He as the same points per game without Jack as he has with Jack.

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50 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

I know.  Agitation.  Kinda like Marchand.

But does that really improve your value to the forum?

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15 hours ago, #freejame said:

Someone said they wished we could sign him to a contract like Marchand’s. This shows Sam has provided more value than Marchand did at the time of his third contract and will likely be paid at a higher percentage of cap. You’re comparing one player who is currently in his prime to one player who is not. Of course Marchand is better now, he’s directly in his prime. Reinhart is not in his prime yet.

God no. They are not similar in any way. Never, ever, ever, would Marchand quit on a play hoping the clock would run out. Never. 

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While I’m often critical of Reinhart, I loved how he responded against the Rangers. Add two quality wingers to this roster, and I think we’ll see Sam be who he can be.

 

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6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

God no. They are not similar in any way. Never, ever, ever, would Marchand quit on a play hoping the clock would run out. Never. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/boston/bruins/brad-marchand-explains-decision-get-ice-costly-game-7-sequence%3Famp
wrong vince vaughn GIF

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2 hours ago, Kristian said:

While I’m often critical of Reinhart, I loved how he responded against the Rangers. Add two quality wingers to this roster, and I think we’ll see Sam be who he can be.

 

Yup.  Sam clearly responded to the criticism.  And that is good.  I think he needed to hear the criticism.

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21 hours ago, MODO Hockey said:

Not to me and many others. But ill wait for Sam to enter his prime so to speak, maybe then i can we can agree. 

I'll try on Monday to go back and put this together. It generally shows that Reinhart without eichel at 5v5 is about 5% better. I'll pull from 2018-2020 since this year he has had very limited time away from Jack.

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3 hours ago, #freejame said:

This is great.  See right here.  Marchand’s laziness cost his team the Stanley Cup!  What?  He couldn’t play for another 15 seconds?  Inexcusable!  That bull would never fly on a real team.  What a joke.

In all seriousness.  Sometimes players just do dumb things.  Marchand has done many strange or boneheaded things that hurt his team over the years.  Some of which I think he has learned from.  He is still a great player though.

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3 hours ago, #freejame said:

This is great.  See right here.  Marchand’s laziness cost his team the Stanley Cup!  What?  He couldn’t play for another 15 seconds?  Inexcusable!  That bull would never fly on a real team.  What a joke.

In all seriousness.  Sometimes players just do dumb things.  Marchand has done many strange or boneheaded things that hurt his team over the years.  Some of which I think he has learned from.  He is still a great player though.

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10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I'll try on Monday to go back and put this together. It generally shows that Reinhart without eichel at 5v5 is about 5% better. I'll pull from 2018-2020 since this year he has had very limited time away from Jack.

When you do this, please also remove Reinhart from O'Reilly.  Sam and Ryan clicked better (at the time) than Eichel and Sam clicked.  And ROR isn't coming back, so that should be discounted from the evaluation.

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8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

When you do this, please also remove Reinhart from O'Reilly.  Sam and Ryan clicked better (at the time) than Eichel and Sam clicked.  And ROR isn't coming back, so that should be discounted from the evaluation.

Ok, but then you are really just looking at how Reinhart did when trying to play 3C with horrible wingers.  I think that’s the only time he has been away from both Eichel and O’Reilly.

I think I already know what those numbers are going to look like, but why not.  Understand what you are looking at though.  

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11 minutes ago, Curt said:

Ok, but then you are really just looking at how Reinhart did when trying to play 3C with horrible wingers.  I think that’s the only time he has been away from both Eichel and O’Reilly.

I think I already know what those numbers are going to look like, but why not.  Understand what you are looking at though.  

Well, if the point of the exercise is to show "Reinhart should drive a line and has done so in the past" shouldn't we attempt to see how he does when he isn't on a line where somebody else is driving it?

And if that ISN'T the point, then don't we need to see them bring in another line driver before separating them?

BTW, Jack & Sam are both having career years and have been glued together at the hip.  That might have something to do with their success.  Just saying.

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17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Well, if the point of the exercise is to show "Reinhart should drive a line and has done so in the past" shouldn't we attempt to see how he does when he isn't on a line where somebody else is driving it?

And if that ISN'T the point, then don't we need to see them bring in another line driver before separating them?

BTW, Jack & Sam are both having career years and have been glued together at the hip.  That might have something to do with their success.  Just saying.

The statement that sparked off the conversation was

I dont like him much, mostly because he cant do ***** without Jack.“

So really, that’s what Liger was saying he could disprove.  Not anything about Reinhart being able to drive a line while playing C and being saddled with 4th line quality line mates.

To me, the question shouldn’t be, “can we put Reinhart with Sheary and Larsson level players and get top 6 level production?”  I think everyone would assume the answer is no.  Only the very Elite players in the game can raise up the level of line mates like that.

The question should be “can we put Skinner-Johansson-Reinhart out there and create a capable 2nd scoring line to go with Olofsson-Eichel-Sheary/Vesey/whoever?”  I think that’s a very relevant and unanswered question that we don’t have enough information on.

Edited by Curt

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17 minutes ago, Curt said:

The statement that sparked off the conversation was

I dont like him much, mostly because he cant do ***** without Jack.“

So really, that’s what Liger was saying he could disprove. Not anything about Reinhart being able to drive a line while playing C and being saddled with 4th line quality line mates.

To me, the question shouldn’t be, “can we put Reinhart with Sheary and Larsson level players and get top 6 level production?”  I think everyone would assume the answer is no.  Only the very Elite players in the game can raise up the level of line mates like that.

The question should be “can we put Skinner-Johansson-Reinhart out there and create a capable 2nd scoring line to go with Olofsson-Eichel-Sheary/Vesey/whoever?”  I think that’s a very relevant and unanswered question that we don’t have enough information on.

The bolded is what we've been told, literally, for years.  That this particular exercise wasn't spawned by that particular claim really doesn't have all that much bearing.  It still boils down to "Reinhart can and should drive a line."   If that is the claim, and it seems to be; then we should probably compared his stats riding Eichel's coattails against when he was actually driving a line.  Rather than comparing his riding Jack's coattails to riding O'Reilly's coattails.  (See, Sam drove that O'Reilly line, he needs his own.  is NOT a persuasive argument.  And, if he really does drive play like has been proposed, we should see evidence of it when he plays away from Jack or Ryan.  Right?  He's played a fair amount of time away from both, as Jack misses a handful of games each year and he wasn't glued to Ryan's hip in '18 (though he did play a ton of minutes with him.). ) And the stats could skew in favor of that argument, as Sam tends to play better as the season wears on and he seemed to spend most of his time with Ryan early in the year.  (Though he was flying out of the gate this year.)

Edited by Taro T

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7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The bolded is what we've been told, literally, for years.  That this particular exercise wasn't spawned by that particular claim really doesn't have all that much bearing.  It still boils down to "Reinhart can and should drive a line."   If that is the claim, and it seems to be; then we should probably compared his stats riding Eichel's coattails against when he was actually driving a line.  Rather than comparing his riding Jack's coattails to riding O'Reilly's coattails.  (See, Sam drove that O'Reilly line, he needs his own.  is NOT a persuasive argument.  And, if he really does drive play like has been proposed, we should see evidence of it when he plays away from Jack or Ryan.  Right?  He's played a fair amount of time away from both, as Jack misses a handful of games each year and he wasn't glued to Ryan's hip in '18 (though he did play a ton of minutes with him.). ) And the stats could skew in favor of that argument, as Sam tends to play better as the season wears on and he seemed to spend most of his time with Ryan early in the year.  (Though he was flying out of the gate this year.)

Ok, I was just telling you what the conversation was.  The “driving a line” conversation is a related and a relevant conversation for sure.

I’ll ask this, What does “driving a line” mean to you?  What’s the definition?  How can I tell if Reinhart is a “driver” or not?

I can’t look at a roster a separate it out into “drivers” and “passengers”. Is that really how hockey works?  Lines with “drivers” carrying “passengers” to production?  Or is it generally players, none of who are perfect, with different skills, working together to get things done?

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2 hours ago, Curt said:

Ok, I was just telling you what the conversation was.  The “driving a line” conversation is a related and a relevant conversation for sure.

I’ll ask this, What does “driving a line” mean to you?  What’s the definition?  How can I tell if Reinhart is a “driver” or not?

I can’t look at a roster a separate it out into “drivers” and “passengers”. Is that really how hockey works?  Lines with “drivers” carrying “passengers” to production?  Or is it generally players, none of who are perfect, with different skills, working together to get things done?

Sorry, just saw your post.

Too late with too busy a week coming up to answer this coherently.  Will try to get back to it, next time.

 

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4 hours ago, Curt said:

Ok, I was just telling you what the conversation was.  The “driving a line” conversation is a related and a relevant conversation for sure.

I’ll ask this, What does “driving a line” mean to you?  What’s the definition?  How can I tell if Reinhart is a “driver” or not?

I can’t look at a roster a separate it out into “drivers” and “passengers”. Is that really how hockey works?  Lines with “drivers” carrying “passengers” to production?  Or is it generally players, none of who are perfect, with different skills, working together to get things done?

I think you're just trying to be argumentative on this. It's kind of obvious and easy to see. Eichel drives the line, Reinhart does not. Sam gives the puck to Jack, Jack does most of the work, carries the puck the most. He's the one carrying the puck into the opposition end, and making the key decisions to shoot or pass. Eichel drives the play. It'd be silly to argue anything else.  For his supporters Sam passes well and positions himself well to receive a pass from Eichel. For his detractors Sam is a passive player who waits for Eichel to get him the puck or to get a rebound if it comes to him.

Skinner, for example, cannot drive a line. He is a sniper, but he needs an Eichel to carry the load and the defensive coverage away and in trying to spread out the scoring, he doesn't have one. 

A player who "drives a line" has to be a complete player - like Eichel. and not a complimentary player - like Reinhart. 

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5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think you're just trying to be argumentative on this. It's kind of obvious and easy to see. Eichel drives the line, Reinhart does not. Sam gives the puck to Jack, Jack does most of the work, carries the puck the most. He's the one carrying the puck into the opposition end, and making the key decisions to shoot or pass. Eichel drives the play. It'd be silly to argue anything else.  For his supporters Sam passes well and positions himself well to receive a pass from Eichel. For his detractors Sam is a passive player who waits for Eichel to get him the puck or to get a rebound if it comes to him.

Skinner, for example, cannot drive a line. He is a sniper, but he needs an Eichel to carry the load and the defensive coverage away and in trying to spread out the scoring, he doesn't have one. 

A player who "drives a line" has to be a complete player - like Eichel. and not a complimentary player - like Reinhart. 

I’m not being argumentative.  It’s not so simple as you say.  Everyone seems to have their own definition for what “driving” means.  By your definition, there are probably only 30 in the entire NHL.  Others have different definitions in mind when they use the phrase.

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